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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,138
Oh duh, wait, it’s gotta be augmentation of some sort. Because obviously Moira is there and she’ll eventually die of natural causes without preventative measures. Presumably it’s the librarian that’s kept them alive for so long. He clearly wanted them to mate as well, I mean he said himself, he hoped they never held dominion again - from that we can assume he didn’t want to outright eradicate the X-gene.
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,636
So we could safely assume now that Charles is not really himself, at least as a result of Moira screwing with his psyche?
I don’t know.

I think it’s him, but... he’s basically been through some shit.

Finding out your wrong, finding out you fail (multiple times), finding out your dream won’t work, it can change a person.

and I think that’s what happened to Charles.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
You're not listening, I'm not talking about the old string theory multiverse that Secret Wars ended. I'm talking about now, continually reincarnating realities becomes a potential problem
It's not a problem, because time is fluid in the marvel universe and resets all the time. Ultimates2 explains this and puts the sliding timeline into canon. The larger powers don't care what happens to a single universe because a single universe is beneath their notice. It's only catastrophic, multiversal problems that attract their notice.

and something you'd think larger powers would notice when there's more than one running in parallel
there are not more than one running in parallel. There is only one universe this is happening.

And we've seen Moiras in different realities before, ours even swapped with one for awhile, but I guess we haven't recently post Secret Wars.
It's like talking to a wall. Yes, AoU and Secret Wars changed everything. Anything prior to that isn't valid and has been retconned out. It does not matter what happened prior to ANAD Marvel in 2015, because Marvel changed how the multiverse works.

If Franklin just made one Moira then sure, that could explain things but that also seems incredibly unlikely.
This was explicitly explained in Fantastic Four. Each universe is distinct. There aren't millions of universes with slight differences. And much of what Franklin made was destroyed by an abstract. The current universe-8 is MUCH MUCH MUCH Smaller than Universe-7 was because of this.

Again, we need a lot more clarification here
we really don't. What you're theorizing is not possible.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
Wow, this was a great ride. So much potential, such a strong starting point for storytelling and a satisfying story in itself.

I need to re-read this all and get those redactions read because Moira is still on the board (sort of). She is probably a husk at this point. Her notes on breaking Charles are... troubling. I am subscribed to all of Dawn of X, and I can't wait to see where we all go from here.
The husk was the Moira that died in the past of the X-Men comics. Moira can't die or the entire Timeline ceases to exist without her, so in order to get her to lay low in the shadows they used a stand in and had that one die.
 

Bookkoo

Member
Apr 9, 2018
510
This was pretty good.. Im excited to see where the next couple years of X-Men stories go with Hickman at the helm, I will at least be reading while he is steering the ship. I will probably pick up all the series because I doubt he is going to let any nonsense get by when he is in Charge of X-men as a whole right now
 

TheIlliterati

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,965
"Winter is complicated...it's where we parked all of our problem mutants. Besides myself of course." - Xavier

What does the last part mean?
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,344
It's not a problem, because time is fluid in the marvel universe and resets all the time. Ultimates2 explains this and puts the sliding timeline into canon. The larger powers don't care what happens to a single universe because a single universe is beneath their notice. It's only catastrophic, multiversal problems that attract their notice.



there are not more than one running in parallel. There is only one universe this is happening.



It's like talking to a wall. Yes, AoU and Secret Wars changed everything. Anything prior to that isn't valid and has been retconned out. It does not matter what happened prior to ANAD Marvel in 2015, because Marvel changed how the multiverse works.



This was explicitly explained in Fantastic Four. Each universe is distinct. There aren't millions of universes with slight differences. And much of what Franklin made was destroyed by an abstract. The current universe-8 is MUCH MUCH MUCH Smaller than Universe-7 was because of this.



we really don't. What you're theorizing is not possible.
I'd argue a Moira in each or even just many of the parallel realities constantly burning and resetting each reality actually would qualify as catastrophic, particularly for beings that exist outside them and move between them. Your own theory rests somewhat on there just being one Moira in the multiverse and it only happening in 616 but we've no indication that's the case and more it seems pretty unlikely. I mean we know there were Moiras in Rachel and Bishop's realities and those are just among the X-Men, provided Franklin recreated them. As soon as we see any alternate post-SW Moira things get complicated quickly.

Hickman was the architect for the current universe so I expect he'll give us a logical and well reasoned explanation. What we have now is pretty basic with large (black) holes but I expect a twist in there and Moira being wrong about the reset is one that could have incredible consequences.

Also, the Dominion wouldn't necessairily have the same urgency with the parallel theory since each reality would just continue on anyway. Moira VI preventing post-human ascension was her priority but her thinking she did that, and it happening anyway after her jump and coming back later in X is something I can see Hickman doing. There's lots of room for wrinkles here and he loves misdirection.
 

devenger

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,238
Whats funny is, if you look at Time Runs Out, it was all about telling stories we’d never get to see in reg continuity. All of them heading towards Secret Wars, wondering how long Hickman could ratchet up the doom.

While this X status quo is exciting, I wonder if there’s a planned “this shit aint working” arc everything will be building towards. Hickman pitches “and we’ll keep this version of Age of Apocalypse going until this point, where we tear it all down and force Moira into her bonus life.” Then like Secret Wars, they keep what they want and reboot anything else into true 616.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
I'd argue a Moira in each or even just many of the parallel realities constantly burning and resetting each reality actually would qualify as catastrophic, particularly for beings that exist outside them and move between them. Your own theory rests somewhat on there just being one Moira in the multiverse and it only happening in 616 but we've no indication that's the case and more it seems pretty unlikely. I mean we know there were Moiras in Rachel and Bishop's realities and those are just among the X-Men, provided Franklin recreated them. As soon as we see any alternate post-SW Moira things get complicated quickly.
I'm actually getting tired of the conversation, and you're really struggling here.

1.) No one is "constantly burning and resetting each reality." Moira is just resetting the timeline. If you read any of the other marvel books this happens *constantly*. The Abstracts don't show up every time someone uses Doom's time machine for something dumb.

2.) There is exactly one Moira in the universe that we know of with this particular powerset. It's entirely unique in the history of the X-franchise and we've never seen anything like it. There is no reason to assume there are millions of her since once again the universes Franklin created are unique. The point was to explore the universe and make unique creations from his imagination, *not* a billion copies of the same universe with slight changes. And for the last time- much of what Franklin made was destroyed by the Entropy abstract. Universe-8 is very, very small right now compared to Universe 7. Small as in "nearly wiped out entirely" and Franklin is unable to make any more universes to save what was lost. This is causing him severe distress in FF right now and is a major plot point.

3.) for the last time- Rachel and Bishops futures are not alternate universes. Marvel has retconned them to alternate *futures*. Those futures all take place in the exact same universe exactly as Cable's does. We know for certain this is the case because Ahab showed up in extermination to reclaim Rachel as a hound from the future of 616, and Bishop comments on his mission in Astonishing vol. 2. Ahab continues to talk about this in the post extermination "Cable" series. He's from the future, not an alternate universe. These people are not from "alternate realities." They are from Earth 616 decades in the future, though those futures may no longer be valid. *alternate universes due to time travel have been impossible since AoU and Marvel has retconned them out*

4.) The librarian states flat out that if the Dominion discovered what Moira was, it would consider her existence intolerable and do something about her. You're wrong about Moira VI, she had no idea post human acension was even a thing- she was stuck in a zoo with every other mutant with no knowledge of what was happening.

It seems a discussion with you isn't that productive since you're struggling with the material, so I'm disengaging.
 
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TheIlliterati

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,965
I thought that was Magneto saying that. Referring to the whole Brotherhood of Evil Mutants thing.
I've looked at the panel a few times, and it show Xavier speaking before, holding the tea. Then the quote I posted while tea is pouring, and then he continues speaking after that panel. Magneto never says a thing visibly in these three panels. I agree it would make more sense, but it's incredibly unclear if so. It probably is Magneto, just oddly blocked.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
Whats funny is, if you look at Time Runs Out, it was all about telling stories we’d never get to see in reg continuity. All of them heading towards Secret Wars, wondering how long Hickman could ratchet up the doom.

While this X status quo is exciting, I wonder if there’s a planned “this shit aint working” arc everything will be building towards. Hickman pitches “and we’ll keep this version of Age of Apocalypse going until this point, where we tear it all down and force Moira into her bonus life.” Then like Secret Wars, they keep what they want and reboot anything else into true 616.
This is a tough one, since it seems that this is already integrated into the 616 continuity. Invaders mentioned the krakoa business in passing.

If we "reboot" continuity again, it won't be into 616 as we know it. I think it's more likely Moira's "decision" ends up in her NOT being reincarnated into her 11th life to cement the status quo, rather than trying again for decades in life 11.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
"Winter is complicated...it's where we parked all of our problem mutants. Besides myself of course." - Xavier

What does the last part mean?
It means no one considers Apocalypse a problem mutant which is....ahh.....I dunno

There is no "end" since this is intended to be the new status quo going forward. If sales are unexpectedly bad, we might see something else in a few years. If sales are good? decades
 

Flow

Community Resettler
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,550
Florida, USA
It means no one considers Apocalypse a problem mutant which is....ahh.....I dunno



There is no "end" since this is intended to be the new status quo going forward. If sales are unexpectedly bad, we might see something else in a few years. If sales are good? decades
Oh no I am talking about this event, sorry should have been more specific.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
Oh no I am talking about this event, sorry should have been more specific.
Ok. I got confused. If you read today's issue, (POX#6) it is clear it's the last issue of the "event."

but it's not an "event" in the sense that "war of realms" was an event. it doesn't end. It's just the introduction to a new status quo. there are still a lot of unanswered questions and easter eggs that popped up in HoX/PoX that won't be addressed until the runs of the new books take place.

It's not designed to "end" its simply where the Xmen are from now on.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,344
I'm actually getting tired of the conversation, and you're really struggling here.

1.) No one is "constantly burning and resetting each reality." Moira is just resetting the timeline. If you read any of the other marvel books this happens *constantly*.

2.) There is exactly one Moira in the universe that we know of with this particular powerset. It's entirely unique in the history of the X-franchise and we've never seen anything like it. There is no reason to assume there are millions of her since once again the universes Franklin created are unique. The point was to explore the universe and make unique creations from his imagination, *not* a billion copies of the same universe with slight changes. And for the last time- much of what Franklin made was destroyed by the Entropy abstract. Universe-8 is very, very small right now compared to Universe 7. Small as in "nearly wiped out entirely" and Franklin is unable to make any more universes to save what was lost. This is causing him severe distress in FF right now and is a major plot point.

3.) for the last time- Rachel and Bishops futures are not alternate universes. Marvel has retconned them to alternate *futures*. Those futures all take place in the exact same universe exactly as Cable's does. We know for certain this is the case because Ahab showed up in extermination to reclaim Rachel as a hound from the future of 616, and Bishop comments on his mission in Astonishing vol. 2. Ahab continues to talk about this in the post extermination "Cable" series. He's from the future, not an alternate universe. These people are not from "alternate realities." They are from Earth 616 decades in the future, though those futures may no longer be valid. *alternate universes due to time travel have been impossible since AoU and Marvel has retconned them out*

4.) The librarian states flat out that if the Dominion discovered what Moira was, it would consider her existence intolerable and do something about her. You're wrong about Moira VI, she had no idea post human acension was even a thing- she was stuck in a zoo with every other mutant with no knowledge of what was happening.

It seems a discussion with you isn't that productive since you're struggling with the material, so I'm disengaging.
What's actually getting tiring is your constant degradation and insults. Please stop, this isn't the first time.

1) Same thing. You're making a distinction without a meaningful difference.

2) No, we don't know there's only one Moira with this power. Again, that's an assumption (probably a necessary one to make for the reincarnation/reset theory to not be complete chaos) but this being a retcon it would lend credence to the idea this also applied to others. If not now then before at the very least.

3) Wrong on Rachel, her future (and her Ahab) is confirmed parallel to 616 and not splintering from it. It's precisely why her future wasn't changed by DOFP. Rachel's also a whole other can of worms though generally (also multiversally unique) and her weird history with Franklin might mean he went to some extra lengths for her. Rachel's timeline literally can't be a possible future of the current MU though because past events are already changed. Same for Bishop at this point actually, he only works with a string theory multiverse.

4) The Librarian thinks that but he's also operating on assumptions that hinge on a reset theory. If there's no reset but a jump then the Dominion wouldn't necessarily care. And the Dominion operates outside reality anyway so even with a reset the idea is their knowledge grows and persists anyway, like Moira. Only if it didn't would Moira be a threat and in it that case it'd be forced to preserve her anyway.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
This is like the Prologue. House and Powers of X are done now. Dawn of X starts next week.
I mean, it's possible hickman could do a "dawn of X" "day of X" "dusk of X" etc arc over the next several years but I believe interviews indicated this new status quo was "long haul" stuff.

Well, given their overall agenda, Apocalypse shouldn't at all be a problem mutant. His endgame fits their endgame rather well with the current status quo.
While this is true, the same is true of Exodus and Mystique, though they've killed waaaaaaaaay less people.
Sinister is the only one that's clearly "A PROBLEM" since he's both homicidal *and* with no clear goals other than self interest *and* apparently not actually a mutant?
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
While this is true, the same is true of Exodus and Mystique, though they've killed waaaaaaaaay less people.
Sinister is the only one that's clearly "A PROBLEM" since he's both homicidal *and* with no clear goals other than self interest *and* apparently not actually a mutant?
Hm, I feel like Exodus would be the most loyal and controllable one, but I haven't actually seen or read much of him since Fatal Attractions. Mystique will only be an issue if the Destiny thing comes out.

As for Sinister... he seems genuinely insane and unhinged, I'm betting he'll be the center of the first mutant to mutant crisis.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
Hm, I feel like Exodus would be the most loyal and controllable one, but I haven't actually seen or read much of him since Fatal Attractions. Mystique will only be an issue if the Destiny thing comes out.

As for Sinister... he seems genuinely insane and unhinged, I'm betting he'll be the center of the first mutant to mutant crisis.
Sinister is absolutely unhinged! his appearance a few issues ago with the copies of himself murdering each other while jockeying for position was just bonkers.

On top of that, we know from MoiraIX that Sinister was responsible for the death/disappearance of the mutant leadership, AND for inserting a bizarre sequence into the chimeras that caused them to self destruct in a hive mind that nearly wiped out mutantkind entirely. The dude is absolutely not trustworthy at all and will happily murder them the second it's convenient to do so.

I get that he's "great with genetics" but surely there has to be a mutant smarter than this somewhere that isn't completely homicidal and uncontrollable.
 

Seven Force

Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,650
As insane as Sinister is (and the fact that we know he's the cause of things going completely to shit in at least one of Moira's lives), I kinda feel like Mystique learning that they have no intentions of resurrecting Destiny is what's going to lead to shit hitting the fan.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,913
As insane as Sinister is (and the fact that we know he's the cause of things going completely to shit in at least one of Moira's lives), I kinda feel like Mystique learning that they have no intentions of resurrecting Destiny is what's going to lead to shit hitting the fan.
Yeah it's Chekov's Gun here. This utopia only works if everyone is getting what they want.

Mystique wants Destiny.
Moira refuses to have Destiny resurrected.
Charles and Eric know this-but have a plan to appease both parties.
Mystique finds out it's a ruse and she retaliates.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
With all the gene and resurrection stuff going on, there should be a pretty easy way to resurrect her sans powers, that'll be a tough one to explain though.
 

Fubar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,780
I mean, it's possible hickman could do a "dawn of X" "day of X" "dusk of X" etc arc over the next several years but I believe interviews indicated this new status quo was "long haul" stuff.
If Night of the Living X isn't the final series and doesn't bring back Marvel Zombies, I'm going to be disappointed.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,205
With all the gene and resurrection stuff going on, there should be a pretty easy way to resurrect her sans powers, that'll be a tough one to explain though.
There was a buried tidbit in the infodump about resurrection that accelerating development via Eva's time powers could introduce "random' elements.

I expect this to be a plot point
 

Flow

Community Resettler
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,550
Florida, USA
Ok. I got confused. If you read today's issue, (POX#6) it is clear it's the last issue of the "event."

but it's not an "event" in the sense that "war of realms" was an event. it doesn't end. It's just the introduction to a new status quo. there are still a lot of unanswered questions and easter eggs that popped up in HoX/PoX that won't be addressed until the runs of the new books take place.

It's not designed to "end" its simply where the Xmen are from now on.
ah gotcha. ty and I haven't read today's issue yet
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,440
I've looked at the panel a few times, and it show Xavier speaking before, holding the tea. Then the quote I posted while tea is pouring, and then he continues speaking after that panel. Magneto never says a thing visibly in these three panels. I agree it would make more sense, but it's incredibly unclear if so. It probably is Magneto, just oddly blocked.
You can see his gloves. If it's not supposed to be Magneto, it's a failure of the letterer.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,011
At least Hickman confirmed that Xavier is this new run is broken (intentionally so) and that this isn't what X-Men was or stood for. This feels like the setup for a much, much longer story arc than a final "this-is-what-the-xmen-are-forever".

I feel better with this final issue than I did before it.
 
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caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,655

Aaronology

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
Chicago
Eh, I see it as more of a modern update. Xavier's old dream was stupid.
Seriously.

There has been a fascination with theorizing Xavier is not truly himself in this run. He's the Maker, he's a Sinister clone, he's Moira in Xavier's body and so on.

No. This is Xavier with the knowledge of how and why his old ambitions and dreams were doomed. Of course he isn't going to have the same personality knowing what he knows now.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,011
Eh, I see it as more of a modern update. Xavier's old dream was stupid.
You call it stupid but I find that dream to be as idealistic as the boy scout nonsense of Superman that many adore. To me perseverance for a noble cause in the face of adversity was important to me. Fundamentally so.

What I saw in these past issues was these mutants sowing the seeds of their own conflict. Having their own innate internal tendency toward destruction not only not addressed but projected onto the humans (as if they were beyond that behaviour) annoyed me, but I'm glad to see Hickman portray them as (eventually, given the pieces put in motion) petty as any human makes me feel better about what they are in this last issue.

Seriously.

There has been a fascination with theorizing Xavier is not truly himself in this run. He's the Maker, he's a Sinister clone, he's Moira in Xavier's body and so on.

No. This is Xavier with the knowledge of how and why his old ambitions and dreams were doomed. Of course he isn't going to have the same personality knowing what he knows now.
It doesn't matter if it was some outside interference or internal realisation. Xavier is broken. Ergo I see this as Xavier in name only. There's only so many changes you make to a character before they cease to be the same character.

You may not care for how he was but I did, very much.

This is a long-form story and how he and the x-men are now is not forever. I await the resolution of this story, no matter if it takes many years.
 

devenger

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,238
This is a tough one, since it seems that this is already integrated into the 616 continuity. Invaders mentioned the krakoa business in passing.
Well, it is until it isnt. If they tell two years worth of stories and reboot, that’ll be 616. Anything like an Invaders conversation can be ignored or even incorporated if the rebooted xmen still decide to live on Krakoa. Everything after X’s speech would just be wiped.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,655
This is a tough one, since it seems that this is already integrated into the 616 continuity. Invaders mentioned the krakoa business in passing.

If we "reboot" continuity again, it won't be into 616 as we know it. I think it's more likely Moira's "decision" ends up in her NOT being reincarnated into her 11th life to cement the status quo, rather than trying again for decades in life 11.
Well, it is until it isnt. If they tell two years worth of stories and reboot, that’ll be 616. Anything like an Invaders conversation can be ignored or even incorporated if the rebooted xmen still decide to live on Krakoa. Everything after X’s speech would just be wiped.
Unrelated to your convo about how canon it is Contagion, some limited series marvel released about the heroes fighting an infection made a reference to this
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,717
I couldn’t have told last week, but this issue was absolutely necessary to complete this setup.

I really like how it sets the stakes and it’s not “just” about preventing the machine apocalypse of X2 but also about making sure Mutants don’t lose over the next millenium.

There's a great irony and ambiguity about mutants trying to prevent another genetic (if artificial) inevitability from making them obsolete. The way Moira talks about it, it’s not about humanity being absorbed in a collective to then ascend to godhood in a black hole. It’s about mutants eventually dwindling.
 
Oct 26, 2017
654
Xavier's dream was dead the moment the first person came back in time from a hellscape. The fact that every visitor since has come from a different one just emphasises it.
 

Aaronology

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
Chicago
You call it stupid but I find that dream to be as idealistic as the boy scout nonsense of Superman that many adore. To me perseverance for a noble cause in the face of adversity was important to me. Fundamentally so.

What I saw in these past issues was these mutants sowing the seeds of their own conflict. Having their own innate internal tendency toward destruction not only not addressed but projected onto the humans (as if they were beyond that behaviour) annoyed me, but I'm glad to see Hickman portray them as (eventually, given the pieces put in motion) petty as any human makes me feel better about what they are in this last issue.


It doesn't matter if it was some outside interference or internal realisation. Xavier is broken. Ergo I see this as Xavier in name only. There's only so many changes you make to a character before they cease to be the same character.

You may not care for how he was but I did, very much.

This is a long-form story and how he and the x-men are now is not forever. I await the resolution of this story, no matter if it takes many years.
*shrug.

How the X-men were before this run wasn't how they originally were either. It's almost the year 2020. Things change.

You're right, though. I don't care much for the prior status quo. It's why I stopped purchasing X-men comics.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,011
*shrug.

How the X-men were before this run wasn't how they originally were either. It's almost the year 2020. Things change.

You're right, though. I don't care much for the prior status quo. It's why I stopped purchasing X-men comics.
I don't care for status quo's period as that (to me) infers some kind of stagnation. But there is a core to certain characters that I believe is important to maintain. Namor already accused Xavier of not really believing in what he was saying. That's the only seed of hope I have that this broken man that others call Xavier can reach a middle way between what he was and what he is now.

Because now? That man ain't whole.

And Moira thinking this is going to work? She didn't see what the Librarian told her despite all those lifetimes but now she has the wisdom to change things? Nah. This isn't going to be the utopia they want. I suspect it'll be right in the middle.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,138
Seriously.

There has been a fascination with theorizing Xavier is not truly himself in this run. He's the Maker, he's a Sinister clone, he's Moira in Xavier's body and so on.

No. This is Xavier with the knowledge of how and why his old ambitions and dreams were doomed. Of course he isn't going to have the same personality knowing what he knows now.
The diary entries and dialogue in this one do a really good job communicating that Charles didn’t get this way overnight. Radicalization is a tough growth process that changes you at your very core. And that’s if it actually takes. Charles seems to still be holding on to some hope that there’s another way. Moira knows and Namor saw it in him, too. I think the scenes with Magneto and he imply that Erik is also not completely sold on this new Xavier.

Edit: To be clear, I agree with you, just pointing out how well done the character arc has been so far with just this series.