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Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,141
I have to admit...it really bummed me out to see Xavier abandon his dream.
Well...to be fair Moira gave Xavier 2 different shots to make his dream work. Both ended in annihilation from Sentinels no matter how much prep he had.

Xavier's dream doesn't work.

This isn't really inconsistent with what Marvel's been saying for a couple of decades now. NEITHER Xavier NOR Magneto had the answer to the mutant problem, they would eventually have to work together to create something greater. You can go back to the 80s and get this message.

Hickman takes this up a notch and says even that isn't sufficient given the scope of the problem, Apocalypse also had some very valid points about survival of the species, and they would need to integrate his concepts.

What comes out of THAT is obviously not going to be anything remotely like the Xmen of the 60s and 70s, running around in spandex fighting crime and hoping the humans will be impressed enough not to murder them.
 

hipsterpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,840
I don't know, I get the impression that Xavier still has some hope left despite everything - which is what will lead to issues in the future between him and the others. The "fuck humans" train has not quite left the station for him. Namor totally calls his bluff on his big global message about mutants inheriting the earth from humans.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,893
Tampa, Fl
The X-men comics have been mostly spinning there wheels since the Claremont Era with a few exceptions that had promise like Utopia.

It's time to get them out of the "school" and do something new with them. No other team or even individual characters in the 616 are still in there status quo state from the 70s-90s.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,135
I don't know, I get the impression that Xavier still has some hope left despite everything - which is what will lead to issues in the future between him and the others. The "fuck humans" train has not quite left the station for him. Namor totally calls his bluff on his big global message about mutants inheriting the earth from humans.
Totally. I think his ultimate arc is going to be persisting with hope for peace, even as mutants cement themselves as a sociopolitical force, and convincing Moira that there’s always that hope and that the struggle is worth it.
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,893
Tampa, Fl
I don't know, I get the impression that Xavier still has some hope left despite everything - which is what will lead to issues in the future between him and the others. The "fuck humans" train has not quite left the station for him. Namor totally calls his bluff on his big global message about mutants inheriting the earth from humans.
Also this. The rejection of Moria's template has already begun. Magneto and Charles think they have the answer this time and have flat out ignored warnings from Moria.

Xavier may have become Mutant first. But he is still banking on establishing the nation and the pharmaceuticals is going to help integrate mutants, I garunteee.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,135
Also this. The rejection of Moria's template has already begun. Magneto and Charles think they have the answer this time and have flat out ignored warnings from Moria.

Xavier may have become Mutant first. But he is still banking on establishing the nation and the pharmaceuticals is going to help integrate mutants, I garunteee.
Someone on reddit pointed out that necessity is the mother of science. If humanity has the drugs to extend their lives and preserve their minds, they don’t need to transcend to being homo novissima/man-machine. That’s why Xavier still wants the drugs to get into countries that won’t officially barter for them. Humans will only adapt to survive mutant evolution if pushed to, but the mutants can make efforts to steer humanity in a different direction or to become complacent.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,324
As insane as Sinister is (and the fact that we know he's the cause of things going completely to shit in at least one of Moira's lives), I kinda feel like Mystique learning that they have no intentions of resurrecting Destiny is what's going to lead to shit hitting the fan.
Yes, I agree. It's also telling that Mystique's one of the few who doesn't seem overtaken by the Krakoa Koolaid Magneto's mentioned before. Irene's been her aim all along.

I also think there's a more personal angle to Moira's no precogs rule and she's letting that get the better of her objective reasoning. Insight to the future could be a big asset generally but even beside that there are those who'd want at least Destiny and Blindfold back for personal reasons (Mystique, Rogue, Legion, Armor, etc).
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
648
Xavier's dream was dead the moment the first person came back in time from a hellscape. The fact that every visitor since has come from a different one just emphasises it.
Yeah...When Rachel tells them what happens in her timeline, Xavier takes it pretty hard



Which is weird now considering what he's supposed to already know from Moira, yay retcons
 

devenger

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,232
I’m not seeing the problem with precogs when Moira is working for mutants. If Destiny came back, might be even more steering room. Unless there’s shit they dont want anyone to know.

Edit: I guess all they dont want anyone else to know is that they have prior knowledge of multiple Ls.
 
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hipsterpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,840
it's pretty absurd when you think about how the X-Men have escalated from "a senator got assassinated which led to a bad future" to "literally no matter what the x-men do they are fucked"
 

deimosmasque

Member
Apr 22, 2018
1,893
Tampa, Fl
I’m not seeing the problem with precogs when Moira is working for mutants. If Destiny came back, might be even more steering room. Unless there’s shit they dont want anyone to know.

Edit: I guess all they dont want anyone else to know is that they have prior knowledge of multiple Ls.
or she's not actually looking out for the best interests of mutants.
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
7,215
I’m not seeing the problem with precogs when Moira is working for mutants. If Destiny came back, might be even more steering room. Unless there’s shit they dont want anyone to know.

Edit: I guess all they dont want anyone else to know is that they have prior knowledge of multiple Ls.
I'm guessing in addition to that, there's also Moira, Xavier, and Magneto not wanting to know if the whole Krakoa thing ends well. If they bring her back and she's just like "Nah, this doesn't work" then what's the point of continuing?
 

Bengraven

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,965
What is the greatest rivalry in X-men comics?

Wolverine vs. Sabretooth
Prof X vs Magneto
Everyone vs. Apocalypse

No.

It's Moira vs Destiny.

Who. The. FUCK. Saw that happening.

or she's not actually looking out for the best interests of mutants.
The thing about her multiple lives that works nicely for future writers is that her loyalties are up in the air. In one life she hated all mutants, hated Xavier. In one, she loved Xavier, wanted to save mutants. She's been a genocidal monster a couple times and a noble healer in others.

What is she now? I don't know, but she's got a black hole "fuck you" panic room that has doorways to a major metropolitan city and Krakoa so she's in a position to be the main villain if she wanted to.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,141
What is the greatest rivalry in X-men comics?

Wolverine vs. Sabretooth
Prof X vs Magneto
Everyone vs. Apocalypse

No.

It's Moira vs Destiny.

Who. The. FUCK. Saw that happening.
Agreed. That one is brilliant.

The thing about her multiple lives that works nicely for future writers is that her loyalties are up in the air. In one life she hated all mutants, hated Xavier. In one, she loved Xavier, wanted to save mutants. She's been a genocidal monster a couple times and a noble healer in others.

What is she now? I don't know, but she's got a black hole "fuck you" panic room that has doorways to a major metropolitan city and Krakoa so she's in a position to be the main villain if she wanted to.
I'm not sure her loyalties are up in the air all that much. The result of pretty much every one of her lives except for the first one (where she died blissfully ignorant) is mutants are obliterated by machines, mankind is either enslaved by machines or integrated into them, and earth is obliterated by the phalanx.

Mutants appear to be the only thing slowing that down. By far the most successful timeline was Life IX, where mutants appear to have been thriving and would have won under the leadership of Apocalypse had Sinister not totally screwed everyone over.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
648
Moira's mind should damn near collapse into its own mini-singularity :-)...her previously known past lives already added up to a lot of info to store/remember...and now Life VI's 1,000-ish years too?
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
703
Agreed. That one is brilliant.



I'm not sure her loyalties are up in the air all that much. The result of pretty much every one of her lives except for the first one (where she died blissfully ignorant) is mutants are obliterated by machines, mankind is either enslaved by machines or integrated into them, and earth is obliterated by the phalanx.

Mutants appear to be the only thing slowing that down. By far the most successful timeline was Life IX, where mutants appear to have been thriving and would have won under the leadership of Apocalypse had Sinister not totally screwed everyone over.

maybe now she will cash in all her chips with apocalypse if Xavier and Magneto seem to be straying from her path. Seems like at least seemingly delaying the birth of Nimrod is a big win for her.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,079
Yeah...When Rachel tells them what happens in her timeline, Xavier takes it pretty hard



Which is weird now considering what he's supposed to already know from Moira, yay retcons
It was mentioned he erased his own memories at least twice, probably to make things happen like they should (note that most of the standard X-Men timeline happened in one of Moira's earlier lives too).
 

JDSN

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,389
it's pretty absurd when you think about how the X-Men have escalated from "a senator got assassinated which led to a bad future" to "literally no matter what the x-men do they are fucked"
Yeah, the future stuff in X-Men always has the bitter leson about hateful assholes just looking for any excuse to commit genoside. People don't hate mutants cos some of them are walking w.m.ds, they hate mutants cos they hate mutants.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,141
Yeah, the future stuff in X-Men always has the bitter leson about hateful assholes just looking for any excuse to commit genoside. People don't hate mutants cos some of them are walking w.m.ds, they hate mutants cos they hate mutants.
They seemed to have moved on from that with this, though. The discussion that mutants might be walking W.M.D.s is beside the point- Homo Novissima will evolve to the point where mutants are barely a threat anymore.

It's not simply "hating mutants because it's an obvious racism allegory" it's instead moved to "machines are an inevitable product of mankind, and will rise as a competing species. Humankind will merge with it to create a third competing species."

I am 100% in the mood for some Quire assholery
didn't buy West Coast Avengers though did you
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,309
Man the Avengers will always end up looking like they ain't shit when you have to view them in the context of living in the same world as the X-Men. All these realities and not once they do some heavy lifting to stop mutants from getting screwed, except when it's to stop an evil mutant.
 

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
4,618
What a ride this has been. Didn’t see the blue man=human twist coming. Guess they’ll deal with external threats for now while Hickman slowly starts to unravel them from within.

Bring on the Dawn of X!
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,141
I'm a west coast dude, and LA is a boring setting.
I have to fly out from Philly to my HQ in LA a couple times a year and the town is laughably terrible. if not for the weather I have no idea why anyone would live there. Sprawl as far as the eye can see.


just getting around to the trades now 😰
y'all are going to have to learn to start taking the hit for single issues for series you like, because otherwise they are going to die on the vine before you ever see a single trade.

Man the Avengers will always end up looking like they ain't shit when you have to view them in the context of living in the same world as the X-Men. All these realities and not once they do some heavy lifting to stop mutants from getting screwed, except when it's to stop an evil mutant.
well..that's the joke. The Avengers usually function as an arm of the US government (though an arm that kinda/sorta does what it wants) and the US goverment has "killing mutants" high on its priority list. I mentioned this before, but Bendis' Uncanny series went out of the way to point out that SHIELD was the one manufacturing sentinels all this time. You know how many members of the Avengers have been high ranking members of SHIELD? even director? Have had high level security clearance and worked closely with those people? it's a LOT.

The Avengers are perfectly aware of the mutant genocide and are entirely complicit, because it fits the goals of the government they work for and with. Present Avengers lineup excluded for obvious plot reasons.
 
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jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,959
NYC
I have to fly out from Philly to my HQ in LA a couple times a year and the town is laughably terrible. if not for the weather I have no idea why anyone would live there. Sprawl as far as the eye can see.




y'all are going to have to learn to start taking the hit for single issues for series you like, because otherwise they are going to die on the vine before you ever see a single trade.



well..that's the joke. The Avengers usually function as an arm of the US government (though an arm that kinda/sorta does what it wants) and the US goverment has "killing mutants" high on its priority list. I mentioned this before, but Bendis' Uncanny series went out of the way to point out that SHIELD was the one manufacturing sentinels all this time. You know how many members of the Avengers have been high ranking members of SHIELD? even director? Have had high level security clearance and worked closely with those people? it's a LOT.

The Avengers are perfectly aware of the mutant genocide and are entirely complicit, because it fits the goals of the government they work for and with. Present Avengers lineup excluded for obvious plot reasons.
hey man i am subbed to all 6 Dawn of X here

i'm doing my part
 

xaM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,587
U.S.
Man, this was such a fun ride. Felt like I was falling in love again with someone I've always loved. I goddamn love The X-Men.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,618
Avengers and avengers adjacent suffer from the continuity disease where they should get involved but they don't because the mutants are in a different book so they don't get involved and so not every book is a mutant book
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
703
Avengers and avengers adjacent suffer from the continuity disease where they should get involved but they don't because the mutants are in a different book so they don't get involved and so not every book is a mutant book

This is it basically. Would be laughable to suggest that the Avengers are ok with any sort of genocide.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
648
It was mentioned he erased his own memories at least twice, probably to make things happen like they should (note that most of the standard X-Men timeline happened in one of Moira's earlier lives too).
Not erased, but replaced with a previous backup version...which should still have knowledge of what Moira told him since it pre-dates the X-Men

Prior characterizations would make more sense if Xavier's and Magneto's memories of Moira's revelation were locked until a certain threshold triggered their release...similar to what he (tried) to do with Sinister
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,652
Vice City
do we have anything on the redacted text yet?

The X-men comics have been mostly spinning there wheels since the Claremont Era with a few exceptions that had promise like Utopia.

It's time to get them out of the "school" and do something new with them. No other team or even individual characters in the 616 are still in there status quo state from the 70s-90s.
this is such a good point - morrison's run advanced the culture, but i tried picking the book up a year or two back and the mansion was around, it just existed in limbo. like, we really couldn't cut those ties or do anything interesting during the lost years

didn't buy West Coast Avengers though did you
i dug much of the lineup, but dropped it around after they handled sexy MODOK. did it get better after that or just kinda fizzle out?

well..that's the joke. The Avengers usually function as an arm of the US government (though an arm that kinda/sorta does what it wants) and the US goverment has "killing mutants" high on its priority list. I mentioned this before, but Bendis' Uncanny series went out of the way to point out that SHIELD was the one manufacturing sentinels all this time. You know how many members of the Avengers have been high ranking members of SHIELD? even director? Have had high level security clearance and worked closely with those people? it's a LOT.

The Avengers are perfectly aware of the mutant genocide and are entirely complicit, because it fits the goals of the government they work for and with. Present Avengers lineup excluded for obvious plot reasons.
goddamn, never thought of it like that but it's kinda obvious in retrospect, beyond them just never showing up at all for major mutant events (unless antagonizing them)

This is it basically. Would be laughable to suggest that the Avengers are ok with any sort of genocide.
...is it though? they really did sit by during genosha, decimation etc and not really offer anything concrete to aid mutants
also given that we're on a hickman thread, it's particularly interesting to say the avengers didn't literally commit like a season of genocide to save (and fail) the 616
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,310
So here's a thought:

Based on how her powers work, Moira literally cannot die before they become active when she turns 13 if she chooses not to.

How so?

Because time follows the path it's supposed to when she's not actively trying to change it.

Moira is supposed to live into her seventies in her baseline timeline and has made it past 13 in every single preceding timeline. Meaning that in lives 10, 11, and beyond, all she has to do to ensure she lives until her X-Gene becomes active is... nothing.

So for Destiny's prediction to be correct, Moira has to choose to die without her powers. That or be forced to through circumstances growing out of whatever situation she's engineered.

What I'm saying is: Moira X is the last Moira because the right choice, if this timeline turns out to be the one where mutants don't necessarily win, but also don't lose, is for her to die without her powers and not live an 11th life. Because "the right choice at the end" is to preserve the timeline she took ten lifetimes to build, since she knows the eleventh is the last possible one.

This might also explain why she's so opposed to any precogs, especially Destiny, being around. She has perfect recall of her past lives, which means she still knows how to brew up a batch of mutant cure. She doesn't want to run the risk of Destiny flipping her shit with only partial understanding of Moira's intent.
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,933
considering Hickmans track record being so much about taking heroes and putting their highest ideal to the test against the most extreme circumstances, im not only willing to bet that Xavier hasnt really given up on the dream, but that whether he will hold on to the dream or accept that its a supposedly doomed endeavor will be the primary dramatic conflict for this entire run.

like its the same kind of thing Hickmans already done in F4 with reeds obsession with solving everything, and secret wars dealing with the death of the multiverse. Both conflicts that ended with the more idealistic options being correct, just with a solution that wasn't immediately obvious.
 

luffie

Member
Dec 20, 2017
377
Indonesia
Ok, so just help me out in here.
  • So this is the 7th timeline??
  • So the true enemy is actually phalanx/dominion?
  • So when Moira dies, she resets....reality? Which means whatever the Dominions/Phalanx knew also got reset? So since they live outside time, the only danger is that they get to know Moira's existence. Which means when she dies the next time, Phalanx, just like Moira, will retain memories of what she can do (which is alter reality), and just kill her once and for all before 13 etc?
  • Which means all previous existence are only stored within Moira's memories...?
 
Oct 26, 2017
653
  • Current timeline is the 10th
  • The true enemy seems to be inevitability, the Dominion are just the next phase of that imo.
  • Dominions are outside of spacetime so no, they don't get reset.
  • Pretty much.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,079
well..that's the joke. The Avengers usually function as an arm of the US government (though an arm that kinda/sorta does what it wants) and the US goverment has "killing mutants" high on its priority list. I mentioned this before, but Bendis' Uncanny series went out of the way to point out that SHIELD was the one manufacturing sentinels all this time. You know how many members of the Avengers have been high ranking members of SHIELD? even director? Have had high level security clearance and worked closely with those people? it's a LOT.

The Avengers are perfectly aware of the mutant genocide and are entirely complicit, because it fits the goals of the government they work for and with. Present Avengers lineup excluded for obvious plot reasons.
Eh, that's rather inconsistent. They're a private group, sometimes with ties to the American government, but often with the UN rather than that. Also, often when they were tied to the government directly (both the more recent post-Civil War period and some older storylines too, like back in the late 70s), the government ties are portrayed as something negative, with the government wanting to control super humans and having clashes with the Avengers due to that. There are standalone individual issues where they help mutants too (like Thor facing the Marauders during the mutant massacre to save Angel).

It's only when you jump to the X-Men side that you get this narrative of complicit agreement with it all, like the recent issue in the last run of Uncanny where Captain America was playing security for a mutant hate rally that attempted to lynch Cyclops, which in this case specifically just becomes ridiculous when in his own book he was standing up to very similar far right groups. Really, it amazes me that Marvel just let's the X-Men editorial shit on every other character like that.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,618
Eh, that's rather inconsistent. They're a private group, sometimes with ties to the American government, but often with the UN rather than that. Also, often when they were tied to the government directly (both the more recent post-Civil War period and some older storylines too, like back in the late 70s), the government ties are portrayed as something negative, with the government wanting to control super humans and having clashes with the Avengers due to that. There are standalone individual issues where they help mutants too (like Thor facing the Marauders during the mutant massacre to save Angel).

It's only when you jump to the X-Men side that you get this narrative of complicit agreement with it all, like the recent issue in the last run of Uncanny where Captain America was playing security for a mutant hate rally that attempted to lynch Cyclops, which in this case specifically just becomes ridiculous when in his own book he was standing up to very similar far right groups. Really, it amazes me that Marvel just let's the X-Men editorial shit on every other character like that.
More and more it seems like x men live in their own universe and the rest of the heroes live their own universe that sometimes crossover so you get a lot of contradictions like that

Also what Captain America is the last person would play security for any hate rally even if he was ordered to cap is the guy who will fight the president if he made him what he didn't want to do. Dude cause a civil war because he doesn't like the idea of registering superhumans

Maybe it was USAgent
 

Kyonashi

Member
Oct 24, 2017
224
UK
The real question here is, which city does Moira determine as the greatest for cuisine and therefore have a gateway to?
 

Primethius

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,058
I really loved this final issue. I think my favorite part was how the 6th life resolved itself. I was thinking the future threat was going to be related to some long term Phalanx goal, but Hickman brought it around and made it more immediate, made it more tangeable for the present day mutants.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
6,141
The real question here is, which city does Moira determine as the greatest for cuisine and therefore have a gateway to?
Philadelphia, obviously. Cheesesteaks, son

So here's a thought:

Based on how her powers work, Moira literally cannot die before they become active when she turns 13 if she chooses not to.

How so?

Because time follows the path it's supposed to when she's not actively trying to change it.

Moira is supposed to live into her seventies in her baseline timeline and has made it past 13 in every single preceding timeline. Meaning that in lives 10, 11, and beyond, all she has to do to ensure she lives until her X-Gene becomes active is... nothing.

So for Destiny's prediction to be correct, Moira has to choose to die without her powers. That or be forced to through circumstances growing out of whatever situation she's engineered.

What I'm saying is: Moira X is the last Moira because the right choice, if this timeline turns out to be the one where mutants don't necessarily win, but also don't lose, is for her to die without her powers and not live an 11th life. Because "the right choice at the end" is to preserve the timeline she took ten lifetimes to build, since she knows the eleventh is the last possible one.

This might also explain why she's so opposed to any precogs, especially Destiny, being around. She has perfect recall of her past lives, which means she still knows how to brew up a batch of mutant cure. She doesn't want to run the risk of Destiny flipping her shit with only partial understanding of Moira's intent.
You're missing one obvious scenario. Moira can keep her powers, but if someone finds out about how Moira's powers work and eliminates her before she turns 13 that will end things. This can happen a number of ways.

1.) Destiny noted that she was much older than Moira was, and if Moira ever intended to do something that threatened her directly, or mutantkind indirectly then Destiny would become aware of it and eliminate her. This *only* works if Moira does something specifically that endangers Destiny though.

2.) The Dominions exist in black holes outside of spacetime and thus moira's "resets" don't affect them. The librarian noted though that if a phalanx absorbed his knowledge and made it back to a dominion, it would consider her existence intolerable and probably eliminate her. Since the dominions don't get reset (the phalanxes outside of the black holes would, though) they would simply obliterate moira as soon as she reset the timeline before her powers manifest.

3.) Someone with time traveling powers themselves like Eva Bell could travel back and prevent moira's conception, strangle her in the crib, etc. Eva did this to matthew malloy in Bendis' series, so we know this is possible.
 
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The Namekian

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,585
New York City
Hickman has a theme of arrogant men facing horrible choices and either giving in to hubris and inevitably or rising to the challenge of admitting their methods were wrong even if their goals were right.

I can’t wait to see Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse go through this too.
 

PhoncipleBone

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,166
Kentucky, USA
Hickman has a theme of arrogant men facing horrible choices and either giving in to hubris and inevitably or rising to the challenge of admitting their methods were wrong even if their goals were right.

I can’t wait to see Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse go through this too.
So far seems like the most fun to read is gonna be Apocalypse. And finally, we might have Apocalypse be cool!
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,618
Hickman has a theme of arrogant men facing horrible choices and either giving in to hubris and inevitably or rising to the challenge of admitting their methods were wrong even if their goals were right.

I can’t wait to see Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse go through this too.
So far seems like the most fun to read is gonna be Apocalypse. And finally, we might have Apocalypse be cool!
Can't wait for Apocalypse to learn a lesson in the big climax of his saga and admit he's wrong to become a hero for awhile in a middling series then go back to being typical Apocalypse