Jonathan Hickman's X-Men |OT| Adaptation or Dominance(Open Spoilers, Gambit is the Witness)

How should we tag spoilers?

  • Day of release spoilers are fine

    Votes: 109 51.7%
  • Give each issue a one week spoiler tag

    Votes: 65 30.8%
  • sPoiLEr tAGs fOR eVerYThinG

    Votes: 14 6.6%
  • No spoiler tags at all-even for speculation

    Votes: 23 10.9%

  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
281
It's kind of weird that Dominions would consider Moira's existence intolerable when it's functionally no different than a time traveler, of which Earth has gagillions of (and presumably other advanced worlds.)

Also weird was that the Librarian didn't have an advanced death prevention system in place over Moira with multiple redundancies. Like, literally placing her in a Matrix-movie-style pod or something. All it took was wolverine going plus-ultra for a second and your species' plan for godhood is ended. It makes so little sense that my head-cannon now has to be that the Librarian secretly or subconsciously hoped for a slip up because of his apprehension surrounding ascension was that great.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,213
Avengers inside the X-men are a completely different group of characters than outside of it.

If you were to believe the X-men, shield is still a thing and thr Avengers are a government group in this decade which give literally everything else is obviously not true
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
Eh, that's rather inconsistent. They're a private group, sometimes with ties to the American government, but often with the UN rather than that. Also, often when they were tied to the government directly (both the more recent post-Civil War period and some older storylines too, like back in the late 70s), the government ties are portrayed as something negative, with the government wanting to control super humans and having clashes with the Avengers due to that. There are standalone individual issues where they help mutants too (like Thor facing the Marauders during the mutant massacre to save Angel).

It's only when you jump to the X-Men side that you get this narrative of complicit agreement with it all, like the recent issue in the last run of Uncanny where Captain America was playing security for a mutant hate rally that attempted to lynch Cyclops, which in this case specifically just becomes ridiculous when in his own book he was standing up to very similar far right groups. Really, it amazes me that Marvel just let's the X-Men editorial shit on every other character like that.
Here's the thing about this. Are the avengers a private group? kinda/sorta, depending on the year. no problems there. But note that I mentioned several of them had high level ties to SHIELD, and even acted as director. Those individuals were:

Tony Stark: (Executive Director)
Steve Rogers: (Executive Director)
Sharon Carter*: (Executive Director) not an avengers member, but closely affiliated with Rogers
Jessica Drew: (Shield Agent)
Eric O'Grady: (Shield Agent)
Black Widow: (Shield Agent)
Wendell Vaughn: (Shield Agent)
Sam Wilson: (Shield Agent)
James Barnes: (replaced Nick Fury Sr. as "man on the wall")
Black Panther: not SHIELD, but Wakandan intelligence is demonstrably better and he's aware of everything SHIELD does

On top of this, Avengers Identicards grant everyone who carries them top level clearance in the US government and all that entails.

The idea that SHIELD was heavily involved in manufacturing Sentinels all this time (which is obvious from the start, even before Maria Hill admitted it during Bendis' Uncanny- Sentinel Squad O.N.E. was proposed by Val Cooper) and the Avengers simply didn't know about it and weren't in a position to do anything about the skyscraper sized murderbots murdering mutants absolutely defies belief. It flat out isn't possible. The Avengers were either ambivalent or complicit.
 
Last edited:

Am_I_Evil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
488
so during all this...is Wolverine currently on any Avengers teams or anything? or any other X-Men? I know some of them (Wolvie specifically) have been on multiple teams at any given time (i've only been following the current X-Men stuff starting with this Hickman run)...just curious how that is all going to work out...
 

Kai Dracon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,732
Rita Repulsa's Moon Palace
There are plenty of time travelers in Marvel. It seems Moira is being presented as a little different because when she dies, she essentially resets the entire universe. She doesn't stop at making some changes that butterfly into bigger ones down the road. It's like she's a kill switch for reality.

The way they're described, the ascended civilizations / intelligences seek to gain total control of the underlying structure of the universe by inserting themselves into it at the lowest possible level. They are literally the gods of the universe except for the high abstracts like Eternity. Which are less specific gods or intelligences than ideas woven into the fabric of reality.

But Moira's power is something yet beyond them. I guess you can't call yourself god if somebody else can do something you can't.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,438
Georgia
so during all this...is Wolverine currently on any Avengers teams or anything? or any other X-Men? I know some of them (Wolvie specifically) have been on multiple teams at any given time (i've only been following the current X-Men stuff starting with this Hickman run)...just curious how that is all going to work out...
Logan is on the Savage Avengers, which isn't really a team, it's just Duggan's silly team up fantasy involving sick guitar riffs and Conan with a shotgun I guess

It's dumb
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
There are plenty of time travelers in Marvel. It seems Moira is being presented as a little different because when she dies, she essentially resets the entire universe. She doesn't stop at making some changes that butterfly into bigger ones down the road. It's like she's a kill switch for reality.

The way they're described, the ascended civilizations / intelligences seek to gain total control of the underlying structure of the universe by inserting themselves into it at the lowest possible level. They are literally the gods of the universe except for the high abstracts like Eternity. Which are less specific gods or intelligences than ideas woven into the fabric of reality.

But Moira's power is something yet beyond them. I guess you can't call yourself god if somebody else can do something you can't.
Kinda. Moira isn't really doing anything that isn't done by other time travelers. Refer to Age of Ultron there. The changes enacted by Doom's time machine were even more drastic than what we've seen from Moira.

The future brotherhood replacing the 05 during Xmen:Blue? Same thing. Also goes for the changes to the timeline if the 05 did not return to the past during Extermination.

All of those things "reset" the timeline, but Moira is unique in that she will inevitably reset the timeline every time she dies, and so far all but possibly one of those timelines ended in mutant extermination. There doesn't seem to be a way to avoid it no matter what methods she or xavier or apocalypse try.

As for the Dominion being gods, they essentially are. They exist outside of space time in black holes and don't have any limitations humans could comprehend. Outside of the abstract powers a dominion is only vulnerable to Galactus or the Phoenix, which are both very, very high on the cosmic totem pole and well past "God" level.

The dominions act via the phalanx, the technarchy, etc in order to incorporate more knowledge into themselves and as those ARE within spacetime they're subject to Moiras resets. Should the Dominion find out about her, they would likely eliminate her. She isn't more powerful than they are even if her actions have an effect on the things they do.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
281
There are plenty of time travelers in Marvel. It seems Moira is being presented as a little different because when she dies, she essentially resets the entire universe. She doesn't stop at making some changes that butterfly into bigger ones down the road. It's like she's a kill switch for reality.

The way they're described, the ascended civilizations / intelligences seek to gain total control of the underlying structure of the universe by inserting themselves into it at the lowest possible level. They are literally the gods of the universe except for the high abstracts like Eternity. Which are less specific gods or intelligences than ideas woven into the fabric of reality.

But Moira's power is something yet beyond them. I guess you can't call yourself god if somebody else can do something you can't.
But general time travel doesn't involve time bubbling only your world. So I don't understand the distinction you're making. Both general time travel and Moira's power seem to not affect civilizations outside of space-time; so they also have that in common.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,991
I'm just happy we're getting more Phalanx and Technarchy shenanigans in the future. It's been so long.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,753
Hickman has a theme of arrogant men facing horrible choices and either giving in to hubris and inevitably or rising to the challenge of admitting their methods were wrong even if their goals were right.

I can’t wait to see Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse go through this too.
Moira fucked up by trusting Men. Should've built her cabal with Irene, Raven and Selene instead.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,881
Wasn't Cap in Rosenberg UXM just Mystique?
Mystique later on appears as Cap to rescue mutants while seemingly taking them to confinement, but I don't think that first appearance was ever said to be her. Other Avengers were supposed to be there too according to the dialogue, although they don't appear visually.

The idea that SHIELD was heavily involved in manufacturing Sentinels all this time (which is obvious from the start, even before Maria Hill admitted it during Bendis' Uncanny- Sentinel Squad O.N.E. was proposed by Val Cooper) and the Avengers simply didn't know about it and weren't in a position to do anything about the skyscraper sized murderbots murdering mutants absolutely defies belief. It flat out isn't possible. The Avengers were either ambivalent or complicit.
I didn't follow Bendis run that closely. Was it really retconned that Shield was behind the sentinels all along, not just at that point?
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,753
And Emma.

They could have called themselves the "Get's Shit Done" group
I would've definitely added Emma but she keeps getting retconned younger and younger. Presumably because we couldn't have Sean and then later Scott interested in an older woman, where's the vicarious white male writer fantasy in that?

Irene and Raven were two who Moira could've gone to early on but never tried. I guess that 3rd life (uh, death) really left an impression. Selene's nuts but she would've popped up eventually so better to bring her in.

Hard to think of many other female mutant power players back then though. Black Womb? Madame Web? Candra? Astra? Maybe Amelia Voght if Xavier hadn't fucked up so badly with her?
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
Mystique later on appears as Cap to rescue mutants while seemingly taking them to confinement, but I don't think that first appearance was ever said to be her. Other Avengers were supposed to be there too according to the dialogue, although they don't appear visually.



I didn't follow Bendis run that closely. Was it really retconned that Shield was behind the sentinels all along, not just at that point?
Bendis just had maria hill come out and admit it when cyclops challenged her on it.

It was obvious "the government" was making them before that but SHIELD specifically wasn't named. Wouldn't take long for anyone with two brain cells to rub together to figure out SHIELD was involved though.
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,648
Mystique later on appears as Cap to rescue mutants while seemingly taking them to confinement, but I don't think that first appearance was ever said to be her. Other Avengers were supposed to be there too according to the dialogue, although they don't appear visually.
they actually do specifically point out that caps first appearance, y'know when he was defending the literal hate rally, was the real cap.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,881
Bendis just had maria hill come out and admit it when cyclops challenged her on it.

It was obvious "the government" was making them before that but SHIELD specifically wasn't named. Wouldn't take long for anyone with two brain cells to rub together to figure out SHIELD was involved though.
SHIELD was historically an organization tied to the UN though, not the US government. The government ties come recently due to influence of the MCU, so if it was really revealed that they were always involved with the Sentinels (rather than just a recent batch), it's a clear retcon.
 
Last edited:

Violet

Member
Feb 7, 2019
2,288
dc
I actually like the idea of continuing this thread so we can call back on theories and such. Not like there's a ton of comics OTs here anyway
 

Supermanisdead

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
449
I love how it ended up being a pair of straight white men trying to mansplain reality and the future to a very exasperated woman. Xmen has always been feminist lit lmao
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
SHIELD was historically an organization tied to the UN though, not the US government, the government ties come recently due to influence of the MCU, so if it was really revealed that they were always involved with the Sentinels (rather than just a recent batch), it's a clear retcon.
SHIELD's history has always been complex, and though it does have a UN charter it's been heavily controlled by the US government for decades and acts explicitly as an enforcement arm within the US itself. The US government ties go back WAY before the MCU was ever thought up.

The president of the US even had the authority to dissolve it and did so for Secret Warriors #1 (2009). What remained of it was eventually formed into HAMMER under Norman Osborne before that was dissolved and SHIELD restored.

There's no real distinction between what SHIELD does and what the US government wants, and the US government has been manufacturing sentinels at least as far back as Project: Wideawake which was in 1983. Wideawake was run by both Henry Peter Gyrich and Val Cooper- Gyrich who was acting as the US Government Laison for the Avengers around that time, and Val Cooper ran not only the government sponsored X-factor team, but also proposed Sentinel Squad ONE.

It's not a retcon.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,685
For decades X-Men comics have been predicated on this idea that mutants are the next stage of evolution, and the struggle and tensions born out of that inevitability. So the fact that mutants are actually not the endgame, but posthumans are - and now the mutants' position is to steer evolution away from that inevitable conclusion for the sake of self-preservation - is a really brilliant idea for flipping that dynamic around.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,278
Yeah let’s just keep this one going. I titled this as Hickmen’s X-Men, meaning his saga and not necessarily just HOXPOX
 

bunkitz

Hot and Cold Peaches
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
7,875
I know the story has been saying that if Moira dies, things end and that they have to start over, but... it's not as if she's the anchor of the universe, right? It confuses me that they assume that. Wouldn't it simply be that Moira will die in her nth life and the rest of that universe will go on without her. She'll be reincarnated in another life which would be another timeline/universe. I really don't like the idea that if she dies, the universe actually gets reset as if she's the universe's reset button.
 

emir

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,500
Is there a guide or video that tells the whole story? I want to show it to my confused friend. Hickman wrote a really great and openly serious story. I loved that ending.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,630
Canada
I'm ready for a Marvel Universe where the mutants are the constant weird enemies.
I want the X-Men to get really wild with the inter-breeding and make some super weird mutants.

I also really hope they get their own weird culture, with weird pop culture icons. Have their own TV channel or something with mutant dramas and cartoons and stuff.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,753
Also interesting that the two things the Dominions have been said to fear are Galectus and the Phoenix. Which are both things pretty innately tied to mutants.
 
Mar 27, 2019
139
Is there a guide or video that tells the whole story? I want to show it to my confused friend. Hickman wrote a really great and openly serious story. I loved that ending.
ComicsExplained on youtube is a pretty good resource although he has one video for each issue of HoX/PoX so it may be troublesome to run them down.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
I know the story has been saying that if Moira dies, things end and that they have to start over, but... it's not as if she's the anchor of the universe, right? It confuses me that they assume that. Wouldn't it simply be that Moira will die in her nth life and the rest of that universe will go on without her. She'll be reincarnated in another life which would be another timeline/universe. I really don't like the idea that if she dies, the universe actually gets reset as if she's the universe's reset button.
Good Question. Here's how I see it.

Moira is resetting the timeline when she reincarnates, because her actions change events on Earth. Earth 616 is *incredibly significant* from a universal perspective, events constantly revolve around what Earth does or does not do, AND Earth has an abnormally large amount of extremely powerful superhumans on it due to a celestial accident.

So changing earth's history changes the universe's history.

Easy example here- When Legion time traveled and accidentally caused the Age of Apocalypse by accidentally killing Xavier, this meant the Dark Phoenix Saga never happened, which also meant that the X-men never went and fixed the M'kraan crystal located in the Shi'ar empire. The failure to fix that would have resulted in catastrophic consequences for the multiverse, not just the universe.

The universe can't ignore changes to Earth's timeline. it's too significant. So moira reincarnating and changing earth's history means the universe itself changes as well.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,990
Super excited for X-Men now. All the Dawn of X titles really but I need to know what's next already!
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
Its a bit of a stretch. Franklin has always been closely tied to the FF, not to the X-men and his appearances in the books are extremely rare. Onslaught Saga was the last time I remember him being a significant part of it.

and even there, the Galactus/Franklin business is far, far future.

The Phoenix on the other hand is very much an X-men thing.

What Hickman has done here is basically created an abstract level power on par with Galactus or the Phoenix that can serve as a major, world ending threat for the X-men without having to go back to the well of the Phoenix Force again if he doesn't want to- which is a smart thing, really.
 

bunkitz

Hot and Cold Peaches
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
7,875
Good Question. Here's how I see it.

Moira is resetting the timeline when she reincarnates, because her actions change events on Earth. Earth 616 is *incredibly significant* from a universal perspective, events constantly revolve around what Earth does or does not do, AND Earth has an abnormally large amount of extremely powerful superhumans on it due to a celestial accident.

So changing earth's history changes the universe's history.

Easy example here- When Legion time traveled and accidentally caused the Age of Apocalypse by accidentally killing Xavier, this meant the Dark Phoenix Saga never happened, which also meant that the X-men never went and fixed the M'kraan crystal located in the Shi'ar empire. The failure to fix that would have resulted in catastrophic consequences for the multiverse, not just the universe.

The universe can't ignore changes to Earth's timeline. it's too significant. So moira reincarnating and changing earth's history means the universe itself changes as well.
Huh. That's a really good way to put it, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks! If this is why then I'm onboard the idea.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
Huh. That's a really good way to put it, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks! If this is why then I'm onboard the idea.
It's almost certainly why. If you read GOTG or other cosmic marvel books the other civilized races of the galaxy like the Spartax/Shi'ar/Kree etc complain about Earth's disproportionate influence on the universe constantly. Both as a source of heroes interfering in their own plans but also the absurd number of universal level catastrophes that seem to originate from there.

Earth has so many superhumans on it that nothing can be done though. Every attempt at invading it, quarantining it, or destroying it fails miserably, it's simply too powerful.

edit: some amusing examples of this- During Infinity, Thanos had a marauding fleet that the entire universe was scared shitless of- it rampaged from planet to planet subjugating populations and murdering at will. Thanos heard that Earth's most powerful heroes (the Avengers) were mostly off planet at the time dealing with the Builders, so this was a perfect time to invade.

A surprise attack by that fleet resulted in somewhere around a quarter of it being wiped out in minutes by JUST Reed Richards. Wakanda alone easily fought off one of Thanos' generals and his portion of the invading army, leading to Thanos needing to use the ENTIRE remaining fleet just to take Wakanda head on. They barely managed it and the fleet was eventually obliterated when the remaining avengers came back from space.

double edit: there was also this bit of business when the Skrulls tried invading Wakanda:

 
Last edited:

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,753
The Dominions aren't on par with Galactus or the Phoenix, they're expressly below them and other universal abstracts. They only fear Galactus and the Phoenix because they're preyed upon by them while other universal abstracts view Dominions as "naturally occurring" and presumably leave them alone.

Also Omega from Moira IX's lifetime dropped a hint most of us missed about the Dominions meaning ascention is likely humanty/posthumanity's end goal a lot earlier than we might think.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,127
Toronto
Moira's checklist:

1. Convince Charles et al. to create their own mutant based Titan using Cerebro to create a storage database that becomes so dense it collapses in on itself becoming a black hole/Titan.
2. Moira X (616) is killed on purpose resetting the timeline. This leads into some huge Marvel event - obviously.

I don't know the rest yet but I wonder if we are heading down this path. I think this might be breaking the rules. We would have a reset timeline and a Mutant based Titan that is part of an atemporal Dominion that could appear in Moira XI's world. To what end? I'm honestly not sure.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,695
Moira's checklist:

1. Convince Charles et al. to create their own mutant based Titan using Cerebro to create a storage database that becomes so dense it collapses in on itself becoming a black hole/Titan.
2. Moira X (616) is killed on purpose resetting the timeline. This leads into some huge Marvel event - obviously.

I don't know the rest yet but I wonder if we are heading down this path. I think this might be breaking the rules. We would have a reset timeline and a Mutant based Titan that is part of an atemporal Dominion that could appear in Moira XI's world. To what end? I'm honestly not sure.
Moira doesn't know anything about the creation of worldminds/titans/dominions/etc. She was stuck in a zoo while the machines and advanced humans pulled all that off.

Creating even a worldmind only attracted the attention of the Phalanx, who obliterated it before exploring to find out who made it.

I think I've come around to the thinking that success here means NOT resetting the timeline and undoing all the work that's been done. No 12th life means that moira is destined to be killed before reaching 13 in her 11th life.