Jordan Peterson - The "Intellectual" We Deserve

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
Oct 25, 2017
5,261
The thing I still don't really get after all this time is why people need him to say clean your room, stand up straight, don't lie, and have it be guised up in pseudo-scientific psychological babble. The two big supporters here already said they disagree with Peterson on trans rights, climate change, threats of violence being necessary for conversation, and a few other cooky things Peterson says/thinks. So, like, what the hell is the appeal other than the very basic self-help stuff?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
The thing I still don't really get after all this time is why people need him to say clean your room, stand up straight, don't lie, and have it be guised up in pseudo-scientific psychological babble. The two big supporters here already said they disagree with Peterson on trans rights, climate change, threats of violence being necessary for conversation, and a few other cooky things Peterson says/thinks. So, like, what the hell is the appeal other than the very basic self-help stuff?
Well do you see anyone else with a veneer of a PhD saying these things?
That may be why...
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
The idea was basically a trigger warning so that people know what "idealogy" they are signing up for.

Which is stupid (as most trigger warnings are in my view), but hardly facist in nature.
What kind of fucked up view of Academia do you have to have to think that a course in a college is like signing up to be converted to an ideology?
Are Universities that bad in Canada?
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
The thing I still don't really get after all this time is why people need him to say clean your room, stand up straight, don't lie, and have it be guised up in pseudo-scientific psychological babble. The two big supporters here already said they disagree with Peterson on trans rights, climate change, threats of violence being necessary for conversation, and a few other cooky things Peterson says/thinks. So, like, what the hell is the appeal other than the very basic self-help stuff?
He's a very talented orator. He know's how to tell a story.

I think that's literally it.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
The idea was basically a trigger warning so that people know what "idealogy" they are signing up for.

Which is stupid (as most trigger warnings are in my view), but hardly facist in nature.
You do know that Nazis targeted Marxists in Germany, right? There’s a whole poem about it.

Which trigger warneings do you think are stupid? Or if it’s easier, which ones do you think aren’t stupid?
 

SixPointEight

Member
Oct 28, 2017
701
Not for you. Basically the mod has said that you are on the right side of the debate and should feel free to keep doing what you are doing.
Or rather the community.

If the community has a set of values, regardless if you agree with them or not, the mod should uphold the community values.

In this case you are out of them. In another case I might be. So what.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
What kind of fucked up view of Academia do you have to have to think that a course in a college is like signing up to be converted to an ideology?
Are Universities that bad in Canada?
I don't know, but I do know that every institution is biased and so are colleges towards either the left or the right. It's not unreasonable to account for the fact that in certain studies or places a radical fringe has taken over.
 

dusteatingbug

Member
Dec 1, 2017
1,393
The thing I still don't really get after all this time is why people need him to say clean your room, stand up straight, don't lie, and have it be guised up in pseudo-scientific psychological babble. The two big supporters here already said they disagree with Peterson on trans rights, climate change, threats of violence being necessary for conversation, and a few other cooky things Peterson says/thinks. So, like, what the hell is the appeal other than the very basic self-help stuff?
“SJW”s
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
15,329
Enough talk about moderation. No one is getting banned for expressing an opinion that's not against ToS.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
I don't know, but I do know that every institution is biased and so are colleges towards either the left or the right. It's not unreasonable to account for the fact that in certain studies or places a radical fringe has taken over.
Which studies? And is it really a fact? What do you consider radical?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
Yeah, because we are been 10 times more respectful than you are, we prove our points and debate honestly. If I was arguin my viewpoint with your methods, I would be banned in 5 minutes.
Dude, you literally posted this as your argument not 3 pages ago
This is my motivation:
Don't @ people on being honest about debating your argument, you're more transparent than twitter moderation policies.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
I don't know, but I do know that every institution is biased and so are colleges towards either the left or the right. It's not unreasonable to account for the fact that in certain studies or places a radical fringe has taken over.
The point of a course in College is to teach students certain skills if you go to a Feminism course you're going to learn about that.
The point is NEVER to make the students drones of some movement to take over the world, it's to have students think for themselves using the tools they're being shown in courses.
It's kinda like an attorney, they're not there to get to the truth, they're here to defend their client.
A good attorney should be able to literally defend the devil.
Well a prominent one has him as a tenured professor, so they’re not as great as I thought they were.
Touché
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
You do know that Nazis targeted Marxists in Germany, right? There’s a whole poem about it.

Which trigger warneings do you think are stupid? Or if it’s easier, which ones do you think aren’t stupid?
I know Nazi's and Marxists don't like each other, but that does not mean "targeting" (I think "revealing" is more appropriate here) Marxists idealogy on campus is facist by default.

I think trigger warnings for things like rape or extreme violence are fair game and serve there purpose without infantilizing the consumer of said content.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
I took engineering in Canada. Am now a communist.

/s
To be fair, if you view the world as an engineering problem you may really come to the conclusion that communism IS the way to go...
Some belief are entirely incompatible with Academia or the scientific process.
Usually these beliefs are deemed shit though.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
The Devil is a fan of man
The point of a course in College is to teach students certain skills if you go to a Feminism course you're going to learn about that.
The point is NEVER to make the students drones of some movement to take over the world, it's to have students think for themselves using the tools they're being shown in courses.
It's kinda like an attorney, they're not there to get to the truth, they're here to defend their client.
A good attorney should be able to literally defend the devil.

Touché
But the Devil is a fan of man!
 

David Ricardo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
254
Dude, you literally posted this as your argument not 3 pages ago

Don't @ people on being honest about debating your argument, you're more transparent than twitter moderation policies.
Yes, and when questioned about it, I provided a synopsis, explained why I think it's interesting, provided quotes when debating about it...
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
One last question:
Is it ok to say peterson fans are neets, have no dad, are transphobic, etc?
Would it be ok to say similar things about the opposite side?
If you're actually interested in doing anything but derail this thread you can also send a PM directly to the mod or even create a new thread to discuss this.

The Devil is a fan of man

But the Devil is a fan of man!
Touché as well

Yes, and when questioned about it, I provided a synopsis, explained why I think it's interesting, provided quotes when debating about it...
You Petersoned your way in the debate with vagueness and delfections.
Oversoul did a much better job defending his position without coming off totally disingeneously.
It's poor form to shitpost and then expect people to not call you out on it.
If you wanted to make a point with a vid, you should have started with explaining your point and illustrating it with the vid, not just "here's a vid and watch 45310hours of Peterson rambling about whatever".
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
I know Nazi's and Marxists don't like each other, but that does not mean "targeting" (I think "revealing" is more appropriate here) Marxists idealogy on campus is facist by default.

I think trigger warnings for things like rape or extreme violence are fair game and serve there purpose without infantilizing the consumer of said content.
What is Marxist ideology and why do you think it being on campus is fascist by default?

And trigger warnings are just warnings letting you know of sensitive content. That’s it. MPAA ratings are trigger warnings. Nothing wrong with them.
 

dusteatingbug

Member
Dec 1, 2017
1,393
I know Nazi's and Marxists don't like each other, but that does not mean "targeting" (I think "revealing" is more appropriate here) Marxists idealogy on campus is facist by default.

I think trigger warnings for things like rape or extreme violence are fair game and serve there purpose without infantilizing the consumer of said content.
"Marxist ideology on campus" is a) not as prevalent as Jordan Peterson wants you to think and b) isn't actually the Gulag-loving death cult that he pretends it is. Dude literally does not understand Marx, or postmodernism, or 20th century history. So his enemies list is not going to be very accurate or useful.

And also again what do you think trigger warnings are if not warnings about "rape or extreme violence?" What half-assed Sargon of Akkad influenced understanding of trigger warnings do you actually have?

One last question:
Is it ok to say peterson fans are neets, have no dad, are transphobic, etc?
Would it be ok to say similar things about the opposite side?
He openly talks about who his target audience is.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
345

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
15,329
No insults, no derails, nothing against ToS. Any issues with moderation can be taken to PMs. End the derail or else. Last warning to everyone.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
The point of a course in College is to teach students certain skills if you go to a Feminism course you're going to learn about that.
The point is NEVER to make the students drones of some movement to take over the world, it's to have students think for themselves using the tools they're being shown in courses.
It's kinda like an attorney, they're not there to get to the truth, they're here to defend their client.
A good attorney should be able to literally defend the devil.

Touché
I mean, of course it's never the point to brainwash students. The point is that it can happen when a course becomes full of biased people that go unopposed by faculty for far too long.

Should a feminist course teach students to be critical of feminism? If so, do you think this actually happens?

Obviously this is hard to measure, but it could be interesting research.

Now of course, if you sign up for a feminism course that's literally an idealogy. But just to go with your example.
 
Oct 25, 2017
882
I know Nazi's and Marxists don't like each other, but that does not mean "targeting" (I think "revealing" is more appropriate here) Marxists idealogy on campus is facist by default.
Not sure why you're talking about actual Marxists when the quotes I put around "neo-Marxists" should have made it clear that I wasn't. Anyway, looking at things Peterson considers to be a part of the neo-Marxist ideology (ie. encouraging the use of proper pronouns for trans people), I think "revealing" is less appropriate (especially when you factor in his fan base).
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
I mean, of course it's never the point to brainwash students. The point is that it can happen when a course becomes full of biased people that go unopposed by faculty for far too long.

Should a feminist course teach students to be critical of feminism? If so, do you think this actually happens?

Obviously this is hard to measure, but it could be interesting research.

Now of course, if you sign up for a feminism course that's literally an idealogy. But just to go with your example.
What are these people biased towards? And they go unopposed?

A feminist course I imagine teaches you ways in which the genders are treated socially. It’s not treated as an ideology, but as a science. What do you think feminism is?

What is Marxism and why is it being on college campuses fascist by default?
 

Simon Belmont

Member
Oct 25, 2017
772
I mean, of course it's never the point to brainwash students. The point is that it can happen when a course becomes full of biased people that go unopposed by faculty for far too long.

Should a feminist course teach students to be critical of feminism? If so, do you think this actually happens?

Obviously this is hard to measure, but it could be interesting research.

Now of course, if you sign up for a feminism course that's literally an idealogy. But just to go with your example.
This is total nonsense. At a university setting Feminism is taught as a social theory, not an ideology. The whole point is to interact with it critically.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
To adress several posters at once:

I'm not saying that women studies, the humanities etc have already been taken over bij idealogues like Peterson claims. I don't have any proof for that.

However I do think it is very much possible that in some instances it happens. And that revealing that (with proper evidence) would'nt be facist.
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,929
I'm using Petersons terms, but I should have put it in quotations, my bad. Neo Marxist Post Modern Radicals whatever.
We should just replace any instance of Peterson saying Marxist, radical left, post-modernists, and neo-Marxists with "the monster under my bed" and I think he will make a lot more sense.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
I mean, of course it's never the point to brainwash students. The point is that it can happen when a course becomes full of biased people that go unopposed by faculty for far too long.

Should a feminist course teach students to be critical of feminism? If so, do you think this actually happens?

Obviously this is hard to measure, but it could be interesting research.

Now of course, if you sign up for a feminism course that's literally an idealogy. But just to go with your example.
There is indeed a problem in that when you have a hammer, all problems look like a nail.
So this inherently means that if you're taking gender study, you're going to use it on a lot of stuffs by default.
That doesn't mean it's preaching or anything.
Similarly when you're taught medieval history, you're going to use this lens to view much farther than just the limited scope you're taught at school.
I do not think this is a problem at all.
If the course taught you critical thinking, you should be able to see the flaw in each and all methods anyway.

To adress several posters at once:

I'm not saying that women studies, the humanities etc have already been taken over bij idealogues like Peterson claims. I don't have any proof for that.

However I do think it is very much possible that in some instances it happens. And that revealing that (with proper evidence) would'nt be facist.
If you want to make that claim, an actual study on this would a much better tool to prove a point.
Sadly Peterson being kind of shit at research will probably never do this.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
There is indeed a problem in that when you have a hammer, all problems look like a nail.
So this inherently means that if you're taking gender study, you're going to use it on a lot of stuffs by default.
That doesn't mean it's preaching or anything.
Similarly when you're taught medieval history, you're going to use this lens to view much farther than just the limited scope you're taught at school.
I do not think this is a problem at all.
If the course taught you critical thinking, you should be able to see the flaw in each and all methods anyway.


If you want to make that claim, an actual study on this would a much better tool to prove a point.
Sadly Peterson being kind of shit at research will probably never do this.
I was pondering if it was ever studied (recently) in the first place.
 

Earthstrike

Member
Oct 28, 2017
740
Really, you have to be blind not to see bias in a mod telling you to feel free to dunk on a person. Also, you don't know what's inside the mind of the mod, so don't tell me about it.

Trying to have a honest debate here reminds me of this girl trying to talk to protesters outside a Peterson's speech:

Facts ain't biased buddy. Climate change is scientific fact. If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the science, that's on you.