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Josh Sawyer on the Possibility of a Pillars of Eternity 3 After the Low Sales of Deadfire (Compared to the Original PoE)

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,748
FIN
I played POE 2 and completed it (did everything I could find or wasn't bugged in release), part of me wishes I hadn't.

POE 1 didn't have that strong writing for main story, but companion quests elevated it. POE 2 had weak main story, but also weak and clearly half baked companion quests that end without proper closure.

Gameplay was smoother experience when coming from 1st game so there is that.
 

shuno

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
441
Well, I bought the first and wasn't really a fan of the combat and character building and obstruse stats. At the same time the story wasn't that great either and the kickstarter-backer thingy was just annoying. On top of that there is D:OS, which does a better job at nearly anything PoE tried... except quality of writing (if you compare PoE to D:OS1, D:OS2 on the other hand outclasses PoE in every regard).

So... they had that coming. A bigger crime is that Grimrock 2 sold so bad compared to its predecessor.
 
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Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,978
Say what?
Clearly you didn't try taking on an over-levelled group of enemies in the Cad Nua dungeon, or you would not be saying that.

I was constantly switching positions, getting my tanks out of the way of AoE spells, setting up walls of fire to restrict enemy movement, flanking, and my main (a cypher) was always weaving in and out of combat.

I think it took me like 30 tries to kill the boss on the second-last level when he was like 5 levels above my party, because the margins for inflicting enough damage, posessing enemies and avoiding enemy AoE attacks were razor-thin. And oi wasn't even playing on a high difficulty!

RTwP is a great system for RPGs. We need more games to use it.
I did. Cast petrify and then auto-ham.
In 2 open up with fireball or something and then just spam heal if needed.

I played on hard+ too and limited myself to 4 characters.
 

Chronospherics

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,276
Brighton
The original Pillars of Eternity received a lot of social media buzz as a revival of a lost sub-genre. The original PoE kickstarter did a good job of capitalizing on player nostalgia for those types of games, and as a result, had good word of mouth. Alongside the games strong critical reception, it performed very well.

But I think those circumstances also lead Obsidian to overestimate the market size for these titles. If I were to speculate I would also say that I imagine they don't perform all that well on console especially. Pillars has a isometric, retro graphical style with a relatively muted colour pallete in most scenes and I find that it's hard to appreciate the detail when it's a little further away on a TV screen. It's just my preference but I tend to have a nicer time playing titles like The Witcher, Dragon Age Inquisition or even Divinity Original Sin.

This isn't a new problem for Obsidian though, Tyranny had the same issue

The article blames fatigue, but I'm not sure that's a fair explanation for Tyranny's poor commercial performance. Are there really enough titles in this sub-genre that players are likely to feel 'fatigued'? Again, I think it's much more likely that the particular circumstances surrounding the original Pillars of Eternity's game and it's marketing simply caused the developer to overestimate the market for this type of title.

It looks like they're doing well with Outer Worlds, a game which isn't quite as well received as Pillars of Eternity. I think there's simply a much larger market for games like that, either first or third person RPG's that put players more directly into the shoes of a particular character.

Divinity Original Sin is an interesting series, because I think looking at what that game does well, with it's marketing, with its presentation, helps underpin why Pillars might struggle. I think a big difference between the two is in their USP and how they advertise it. Divinity Original Sin's 2 makes the game appear much more vibrant, and pulls the camera down to the level of the city, and player character to make the game feel more akin to a more typical third person RPG.


It also communicates it's unique selling points very well to the player. As someone that plays predominantly on console, an outsider to this subgenre, Divinity Original Sin and it's sequel pulled me in with it's emphasis on tactical combat. Watching the trailer I could immediately understand how the game played, and why I would want to play it over other titles. For me, I think the USP is the combat system and the interactions between spells and the environment, that's not something I've seen very often, and it's very clearly communicated in the trailer. I also appreciate that despite the bleak themes, the trailer presents some lighthearted moments, even Larian's logo (the knight with the plunger on his head) implies that the game might have a sense of humour.

They also posted an even more detailed 'features' style trailer onto the, again demonstrating an emphasis on communicating what the game is about to a potentially new audience of players.

If we look at the launch trailer for Pillars of Eternity 2, the way they chose to market their game is quite different.


It's easy to see how this trailer takes a very different approach. Unlike Larian's trailer for Divinity Original Sin 2, this trailer focuses more on the atmosphere and theme than anything else. As an outsider to the genre, I feel there's a lot of missing information that I would need to find myself interested.
  • Who do I play as in the game? The trailer doesn't tell you
  • What is the gameplay like?
  • Why play this over anything else? If the USP is deep RPG elements, why aren't these communicated?
They marketed the game with a features trailer too, but it's mostly the same footage from the other trailer, with text written atop. Many of gameplay sequences are shown, with the text 'take command in combat'. This particular phrase really doesn't do much to communicate anything, and because the UI is stripped away in the gameplay sequences shown, it's still difficult to tell what's happening, or what type of game it is. Big elements of gameplay are missed out entirely, such as the emphasis on dialog and interaction with NPCs.

Larian make a point of keeping the UI present in the trailer and I think that goes a long way to help communicate what's happening, it's easy to identify the player characters on-screen, and the UI helps paint a complete picture of what type of game it is. Even if players come into this trailer not having any experience with the sub-genre, they'll likely see similarities between previous titles they've played like Dragon Age, X-Com and even more action orientated titles like The Witcher 3.

In any case, I feel as though Obsidian's marketing for Pillars of Eternity 2 feels more targeted to the audience that are already invested in that type of game. They know what Pillars of Eternity is, they know the genre conventions, and it's easy for them to understand what the trailer communicates. I think this style of advertising might be a problem if the market for this type of game is smaller than originally anticipated, as for players sitting on the outside, it's difficult to understand what the game, or sub-genre offers compared to other titles they've already played.

The tl;dr version is that I think it comes down to overestimating the market, the aesthetic presentation of the game not being as appealing for console players, and the games marketing poorly communicating what the game is, and thus missing out on opportunities to grow the series towards new audiences.
 

Sesha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,924
The first game had the novelty factor of being a new franchise and of crowdfunding when gaming Kickstarters were fresh and exciting, and was announced at a time where there were way fewer isometric CRPGs than there are now. Now there's a lot more Western RPGs in general out, incl. from devs other than Bethesda and Bioware.

And speaking as someone that backed the original and didn't back the second one (for various reasons) and haven't bought it, Nr. 2s, especially from indies, aren't that exciting unless the game is a big step up while also being as fresh and novel as the first game. The only indie sequel or spiritual successor (like Inside) I have bought so far has been Hotline Miami 2. And that's partly bc I played the first game the same year the sequel came out.
 

decoyplatypus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,411
Brooklyn
The whole pirate theme sort of killed it for me.
This is a common complaint, but I have to admit it puzzles me. Deadfire has one pirate faction (out of four major factions). You don't play as pirates unless you choose to. It's mainly a Pacific Island/colonization-inspired setting. Which is pretty novel for a videogame!

you know whats funny ?

It does not surprise me that a higher percentage of Deadfire's much smaller user base (which would have retained the folks who beat POE1) actually finished the game.

It's easy to see how [Deadfire's] trailer takes a very different approach. Unlike Larian's trailer for Divinity Original Sin 2, this trailer focuses more on the atmosphere and theme than anything else. As an outsider to the genre, I feel there's a lot of missing information that I would need to find myself interested.
  • Who do I play as in the game? The trailer doesn't tell you
  • What is the gameplay like?
  • Why play this over anything else? If the USP is deep RPG elements, why aren't these communicated?
They marketed the game with a features trailer too, but it's mostly the same footage from the other trailer, with text written atop. Many of gameplay sequences are shown, with the text 'take command in combat'. This particular phrase really doesn't do much to communicate anything, and because the UI is stripped away in the gameplay sequences shown, it's still difficult to tell what's happening, or what type of game it is. Big elements of gameplay are missed out entirely, such as the emphasis on dialog and interaction with NPCs.
Oof. This persuades me that there were genuine problems with the marketing, on top of more fundamental audience-size issues.
 
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werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,877
I got Pillars 1 & Tyranny for free from a subscription service and gave Tyranny a try. The setting was rather interesting, but as someone who loves turn-based combat & Action/RPG combat when done well, RTw/P just feels like they've combined the worst parts of both. After deciding that Tyranny's world wasn't interesting enough for me to want to slog through the combat, I haven't even bothered installing Pillars 1 since it sounds like it's more of a generic D&D setting.

The pirate setting of Pillars 2 feels like it'd be a plus, not a con. Skies of Arcadia (Sky Pirates) is a beloved RPG and there's not a lot of RPGs with a pirate theme.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,818
Kickstarted and finished both 1 and 2. 1 was basically supposed to be the revival of Infinity Engine style game and like many stated in this very thread it was during the kickstarter boon period. Both felt half baked and underfunded for the amount of content they were aiming for and that is a big issue with both games especially when you aim to be BG2.

There isn't much anything interesting happening in the first game after the big riot and the rest is simply padding and also not very interesting. The first game had terrible loot and items to find all around (it's simple crafting system let you make much better items than the unique easily). In the second game all of the party members have half baked personal quests. There's also a bunch of party members with no quests and little banter and interaction at all because they didn't get enough kickstarter money (why even add those?). There's also not much main story in there it's all about factions.

It also seems he doesn't take into account the fact people were turned off by 1 and didn't buy 2. Many were presenting the game as the successor to Baldur's Gate and the game never really reached that level. The story was pretty boring too, I couldn't even remember a thing that happened in the game when I imported my save in the second game. The dungeon under your keep never reached Watcher's keep or Durlag's Tower level of greatness. It was more of the same of waves of groups of monsters with little puzzles.

For the second game they tried to Bioware/Bethesda the game quite a bit I feel. I suppose they were trying to increase their base. The main story is short and weak and the bulk of the game is doing faction quest and sidequests. No matter what you choose you don't get to even fight the "antagonist" in the game. You have a text box full of options but it all amounts to "Yes, do it" but with slightly different caveats. All of the party members remind you all the time how fantabulous you are and there's constant sexual innuendos because they want you that bad. There is a ship battle system you can entirely skip by picking constantly ram into the other ship to trigger a fight where you spam a bunch of AoE and win easily.

There's never anything in the games that reached the goodness of the combat in DOS 1 or 2.
 

Spacejaws

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Scotland
It's neither fun nor strategic. It says something about the system if you just wanna get it over with as soon as possible...
This is nonsense. Pillars has tons of strategy, to the point it can be overwhelming for new players who have no idea why they are dying so easily.

I prefer a combat system that flows better than the turn based system in DOS 1(the only one I've played yet). I wish turn based games would do away with the slow movement and positioning factor. That really killed my fun in DOS1 where it took like 5 minutes to position right for 2 zombies and 3 attacks before we got a hit then my girlfriend died and just turned it off. Turn based can be a slog, RTwP isn't just a full action version there's loads of stuff to keep on top of.

And yea I have plenty of fun with it :/ considering that after PoE, Pathfinder came out and still had a ton of success and pretty good reception makes me thing that RTwP isn't the factor driving people away.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,239
Funnily enough I just finished the game yesterday. It was one of the few games that make you feel like the character you created and the story you experienced really is your own. The main quest, the plot of it at least, was far better than 1 as well.

That said, it really has a lot of undercooked systems that thankfully don't get in the way that much. It would be a shame if we never get a sequel, especially considering how the game ended. If there ever is a new one it needs to be more focused and linear.

I think one aspect that also hurt the sales was their DLC strategy. The season pass was announced from the beginning so I simply waited until everything was out and on sale and I'd wager many people did the same or planned to buy it later but it simply fell off their radar.
 

Karonoth

Member
Nov 10, 2018
1,074
It's neither fun nor strategic. It says something about the system if you just wanna get it over with as soon as possible...
Eh... no. Something like Baldur's Gate may not be really that strategic, but the combat system in Pillars has tons of strategy, especially when you play it on harder difficulties. If I had to do everything I do turn by turn for each of my characters in a turn-based system, the combat would take ages.
 

SillyEskimo

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,750
I went to buy it on PC and they still want $59.99 1.5yrs after release? Hard pass, but I put it on my wish list and will grab it when it is on sale for something more reasonable.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,978
And yea I have plenty of fun with it :/ considering that after PoE, Pathfinder came out and still had a ton of success and pretty good reception makes me thing that RTwP isn't the factor driving people away.
Not once have I heard anyone ever - even in community bubbles - wanting a new game to have RTwP. I can assure you that it greatly puts me off - I still do play those games, mind you - but even if it's not a deterrent for others, it's absolutely in no case a selling point either. It's tolerated at best. I know plenty of people who are eager for a new classic turn-based RPG, just because it's turn based. You will never see that for RTwP. Community choices that asked people who pledged on kickstarter if they want RTwP vs Turn-based unanimously turned out to be turn-based.

Even on the Pillars of Eternity boards are many, many threads wanting turn based.

It may not be the sole reason, but I'd say it absolutely has something to do with its lack of broader success.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
19,940
I got Pillars 1 & Tyranny for free from a subscription service and gave Tyranny a try. The setting was rather interesting, but as someone who loves turn-based combat & Action/RPG combat when done well, RTw/P just feels like they've combined the worst parts of both. After deciding that Tyranny's world wasn't interesting enough for me to want to slog through the combat, I haven't even bothered installing Pillars 1 since it sounds like it's more of a generic D&D setting.

The pirate setting of Pillars 2 feels like it'd be a plus, not a con. Skies of Arcadia (Sky Pirates) is a beloved RPG and there's not a lot of RPGs with a pirate theme.
Pillars' combat is much better than Tyranny's for what it's worth.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,426
A real shame. PoE2 is one of the best games I've played in the last few years, and some of the best writing I've ever seen in a game. Even if we don't get more PoE, hope we get more games from that team.
 

Deusmico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
272
i own both, but definetly poe1 had the benefit of huge exposure from that wave of kickstarter games
 

CobaltBlu

Member
Nov 29, 2017
148
I just bought Deadfire recently after it finally started getting deeper discounts and I have been enjoying it so far. I think there are a number of things that made me apprehensive about buying Deadfire that contributed to the low sales count.

I bought PoE1 and enjoyed my time with it but eventually burned out. There were too many combat encounters with uninteresting designs combined with the real combat system really burned me out. Too much text to read that wasn't really grabbing my attention and not enough voice acting. Too much competition from other games in the genre, DoS2 was fantastic and really stole their thunder and Kingmaker came out too. Really stubborn sales pricing on Steam. Whenever I saw the game on sale I would remember my gripes from the first PoE and compare them to my experience with DoS2. Also, Tyranny was not enjoyable for me.

That's too bad because the game feels really nice to me this time around. Voice acting, turn-based combat if you want it, interesting ship management / world map mechanic and a cool setting have me hooked so far. This game could use some good word of mouth so I hope more people will check it out.
 

Spacejaws

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Scotland
Not once have I heard anyone ever - even in community bubbles - wanting a new game to have RTwP. I can assure you that it greatly puts me off - I still do play those games, mind you - but even if it's not a deterrent for others, it's absolutely in no case a selling point either. It's tolerated at best. I know plenty of people who are eager for a new classic turn-based RPG, just because it's turn based. You will never see that for RTwP. Community choices that asked people who pledged on kickstarter if they want RTwP vs Turn-based unanimously turned out to be turn-based.

Even on the Pillars of Eternity boards are many, many threads wanting turn based.

It may not be the sole reason, but I'd say it absolutely has something to do with its lack of broader success.
Dude...I love RTwP, so now you've seen at least one person say it. There are plenty of people who like RTwP. Saying you have never seen anyone claim to like it and stating it is tolerated as a bonifide fact seems a bit hyperbolic.

Go on the Baldurs Gate 3 forums somewhere and there are plenty of arguments for one mode or the other. Yes the RPG community skews more Turn Based at the moment but there are defintely people out there who prefer RTwP and plenty more who don't really give a shit as long as the game is fun to play.
 

Chromie

Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,196
Dude...I love RTwP, so now you've seen at least one person say it. There are plenty of people who like RTwP. Saying you have never seen anyone claim to like it and stating it is tolerated as a bonifide fact seems a bit hyperbolic.

Go on the Baldurs Gate 3 forums somewhere and there are plenty of arguments for one mode or the other. Yes the RPG community skews more Turn Based at the moment but there are defintely people out there who prefer RTwP and plenty more who don't really give a shit as long as the game is fun to play.
I really hope Larian is sticking with turn based combat. Divinity 1 & 2 is so much fun and the combat is one of the reason I never get tired of it.
 

Spacejaws

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Scotland
I really hope Larian is sticking with turn based combat. Divinity 1 & 2 is so much fun and the combat is one of the reason I never get tired of it.
I'm kinda the opposite I guess. I've played about 10 hours of OS1 because I found the battle system really slow and boring. My partner wanted to play a game with me and we heard it was great coop but it's been a real let down how dull it is coupled with the cringe writing. I don't know whether to jumped straight into OS2 instead...

That said I 100% guarantee it will not be RTwP, but I'm not even sure if it will be turn based. They've said they've done away with 'misses' as a mechanic and that they have tp create their own interpretation of the ruleset because the core rules don't work. Not sure what that's going to look like at the end.
 
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Shadout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
617
Makes me really sad. PoE 1 (and to a lesser degree 2) are some of my favorite games ever. Great world, great combat.
RtwP is still the best rpg system.

2 seemed to suffer from low marketing. And as some has mentioned, maybe giving the impression you had to finish the first game first.
It had attocious ship combat but I doubt that affected sales much directly.
 

oneils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,769
Ottawa Canada
My reason was that I was still playing PoE1. I wonder how many people skipped it because they never made their way through all of PoE. For me I just kept getting distracted by big AAA titles but always enjoyed coming back and playing a few hours more. Think I clocked 80 by the end.
Yeah, I'm betting that this is a big reason. There was a lot of hype around the resurgence of the crpg and many of us bought into it. But I bet there was a large chunk of us that bought a few of these games but never played them or finished them. I never played poe1 for more than a couple of hours. So I wasn't about to start the sequel.
 

Absoludacrous

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,230
Yeah, I'm betting that this is a big reason. There was a lot of hype around the resurgence of the crpg and many of us bought into it. But I bet there was a large chunk of us that bought a few of these games but never played them or finished them. I never played poe1 for more than a couple of hours. So I wasn't about to start the sequel.
Yep, this is exactly me. I might get PoE2 cheap down the road just to throw it in the backlog for when I retire, but I was never in a rush to buy a direct sequel to a game I'm still dozens of hours away from finishing.
 

Stabbie

Member
May 8, 2019
1,548
It's neither fun nor strategic. It says something about the system if you just wanna get it over with as soon as possible...
Maybe you're just bad ? everything in PoE 2 is centered around 4 different defenses and building up damage by either using buffs / debuffs or afflictions of any of these 4

Some classes like the Swashbuckler will completely annihilate anything vulnerable to blindness or slowed, druid and fighter can destroy armor, other classes will profit of a bonus damage by afflicting enemies with another kind of, you also get bonus damage if you flank AND consummables are actually very potent

Can't take any "its not fun nor strategic" talk seriously sorry. It is, especially now with the god challenges and you can also mod the difficulty if you wish to.

You also got a really robust itemisation in this game where some weapons are great at killing bosses in particular, not so much mobbing

The main problem is that they simplified too much some stuff in vanilla, by not forcing players to rest after combat. You can spam your most damaging abilities in every single encounter instead of being deliberate with your spell / abilities usage and rest to recover said usages ... but there's also much more combat than in PoE

edit :


hardest fight by miles in the game
 
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kcp12304

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,122
I'm one of those who backed the first game but haven't yet played the second. I didn't even realize the game was out until after I saw reviews hit. However, I'm sure Obsidian got a lot of "free" press for jumping onto Kickstarter early so there's no way their publisher could recreate that level of marketing.

Imo, the reason I haven't played it yet was, despite how much I really enjoyed PoE 1, the world and gameplay wasn't engaging enough for me to feel invested in the series. I was left a bit disappointed in the world bulidng in PoE 1 and I remember almost none of the lore. Which is in stark contrast to the world building/characters in Bioware games or the gameplay of DoS 1 being more "fun".
 

Uzzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,373
Not once have I heard anyone ever - even in community bubbles - wanting a new game to have RTwP. I can assure you that it greatly puts me off - I still do play those games, mind you - but even if it's not a deterrent for others, it's absolutely in no case a selling point either. It's tolerated at best. I know plenty of people who are eager for a new classic turn-based RPG, just because it's turn based. You will never see that for RTwP. Community choices that asked people who pledged on kickstarter if they want RTwP vs Turn-based unanimously turned out to be turn-based.

Even on the Pillars of Eternity boards are many, many threads wanting turn based.

It may not be the sole reason, but I'd say it absolutely has something to do with its lack of broader success.
Well in response to your anecdote here's mine. I want more RTwP games. I especially want a game that was explicitly marketed as an Infinity Engine successor to have RTwP and continue to have it. RTwP is far superior to Turn Based, and frankly it's endlessly frustrating to hear constant complaints from Turn Based fans about one of the few RTwP games we've gotten for decades when there's countless Turn Based classics out there.
 

Flou

Member
Jan 31, 2019
41
The whole pirate theme sort of killed it for me.
Pirates are merely a faction in the game, not a theme. Theme would be colonization.
The whole pirate faction and the main characters were really nicely written and designed though and Fort Deadlight as an area was one of the best areas in the game. I think they should have left the ship to ship combat out of the game though.
 

Flou

Member
Jan 31, 2019
41
I think you can't truly understand if you only look at Deadfire sales. Tyranny also bombed and the same is true for Torment: Tides of Numenera. I just think that people are less interested by 2D RPG now than in 2013-2015. It doesn't mean you can't sell a game like that (Divinity: Original Sin 2 proves it), but it's much harder now.
Tyranny didn't bomb. It has made profit for Paradox. It didn't sell the million units they were hoping for at launch, but that doesn't mean it bombed. It was a relatively cheap game to make.
 

sredgrin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,914
Not once have I heard anyone ever - even in community bubbles - wanting a new game to have RTwP. I can assure you that it greatly puts me off - I still do play those games, mind you - but even if it's not a deterrent for others, it's absolutely in no case a selling point either. It's tolerated at best. I know plenty of people who are eager for a new classic turn-based RPG, just because it's turn based. You will never see that for RTwP. Community choices that asked people who pledged on kickstarter if they want RTwP vs Turn-based unanimously turned out to be turn-based.

Even on the Pillars of Eternity boards are many, many threads wanting turn based.

It may not be the sole reason, but I'd say it absolutely has something to do with its lack of broader success.
I don't think you're remotely aware of these "bubbles" you talk about. There was a vote for instance, for Torment's battle system, and turn based ended up winning by 1 percent, and you can see TONS of complaints that they decided toward turn based in the end. Sure as shit isn't unanimous among actual fans of the genre.
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,095
RTwP I think only works if you have boring warriors like in BG2, so you can have a decent chunk of low maintenance characters in the party, but people got the idea that warriors aren't supposed to be boring.

Dragon Age 2 actually did a decent job of making it work by having a strong AI "Tactics" system, but I think its hard to get enough players actually utilising that fully.
 

Dysun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,470
Miami
I eventually bought PoE 2 on a sale, but my tepid enjoyment of the first game definitely put me off playing the sequel.
 

Gundam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,643
The only real time with pause rpg I’ve played is KOTOR and I enjoy that games combat infinitely more than any turn based RPG. Shrug.
 

Tharp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,119
Maybe it's because it's trying to be in the style of the Infinity Engine games, but PoE2 was something I struggled to play after D:OS2. I liked PoE2, but I fell off it hard. It just never felt 'modern' enough to me. I don't know why it felt that way or what I wanted it to do differently, but D:OS2 felt like a fresh and modern CRPG that was super engrossing, where I struggled to connect with PoE2 in a similar way.
 
Nov 8, 2017
4,238
I did. Cast petrify and then auto-ham.
In 2 open up with fireball or something and then just spam heal if needed.

I played on hard+ too and limited myself to 4 characters.
This is kind of amazing because in 2 I really struggled to get through the game with a full party. I was constantly getting my ass kicked. Obviously we were doing something differently. I was a Wizard in both games.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,978
This is kind of amazing because in 2 I really struggled to get through the game with a full party. I was constantly getting my ass kicked. Obviously we were doing something differently. I was a Wizard in both games.
Always auto-attack melee pew pew 2h. In most games you really aren't getting that many melee skills to work with, tho. You get a charge and a cleave and those are sadly the most creative things usually...

I don't think you're remotely aware of these "bubbles" you talk about. There was a vote for instance, for Torment's battle system, and turn based ended up winning by 1 percent, and you can see TONS of complaints that they decided toward turn based in the end. Sure as shit isn't unanimous among actual fans of the genre.
What wins is unanimous. I'm was a backer of most of these cRPGs.
 

Burt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,908
Path of the Damned was extremely poorly balanced in Deadfire. Basically, it just gave the enemies a little bit of extra health and your party a -15/-15 modifier for Accuracy and Defenses. This made the opening of the game extremely difficult when your total Acc/Def were low, but around level 10/12 (which you can actually hit with a very minimal combat), you start to get over that hump, and by level 17+, the -15/-15 penalty is negligible. I think I went down to 4 players as well for my second run.

Modding fixes this problem, and once things get balanced out, I'm pretty darn comfortable saying that Deadfire has the best combat in any CRPG ever, especially with the DLC.
 

Flou

Member
Jan 31, 2019
41
As to why Deadfire didn't sell as well as Pillars of Eternity:

1)Marketing. Kickstarter gave the 1s game a huge boost. Going the FIG route pissed off some people from the get go. Versus Evil didn't market the game at all. At least Paradox did something. Paradox got the game in gaming store shelves for example. Plus Paradox has their fans who are super into everything they release.
Versus Evil has what, 0 fans?
When you have people who bought the first game claiming that they didn't even know that the 2nd game was being released or that it was out already, you haven't done a good job at marketing.

2)Fatigue. Obsidian made 3 of these games in a row. Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and Deadfire. Nothing else in between. Even their fans must have been a bit fatigued after that. I know I was.

3)Systems design. 1st game was flawed initially. It didn't play out as smoothly as Baldur's Gate. Sure they fixed it for 3.0 version with the White March expansion (which is still the best content out there for Pillars of Eternity series). Then they blow that up for Deadfire and start fixing the systems design. This leads to unbalanced game and the game being too easy.
Ship to ship combat should have been scratched. But this was something Feargus just had to have in the game. The man should not meddle with game design as much.
Some of the design in the 1st game especially was really no fun at all. Camping supplies for example was a horrible idea when the loading times (thanks Unity) were bad. You have to run back to town to sleep and get more supplies to continue.

4)Chris Avellone. He did his best that people would be hating Obsidian when the game came out. I doubt he had a huge impact since most people don't read Codex or the few sites that actually picked up on his alcohol/drug driven spam on Codex.

5)Direct sequel. If you haven't finished the 1st one from your massive backlog of Steam games, would you really by the 2nd one at full price? No, you wouldn't. You would rather wait for you to finally finish the 1st one and at that point you can get the 2nd much cheaper.

6)Unfamiliar setting. The pacific islands as a setting isn't something that will lure in people. Pathfinder most likely sold games with just the name Pathfinder.
 

Flou

Member
Jan 31, 2019
41
Do you have a prove for that? Did Paradox say the game was profitable? I can't find anything like that.
No source. I have vague memory of someone saying that the game cost less than 10 million dollars to make. Tyranny sold around 150k-200k units at launch + at least 300k units after that (SteamSpy has it at 500k - 1 million copies sold, and it did well on GOG). Paradox didn't spend a ton on marketing with Tyranny, so I have hard time believing that they didn't make profit with the game.
All Paradox has said on how well Tyranny did was that they expected it to sell more (nearer to Pillars of Eternity numbers). That was 3? years ago.
 

Alastor3

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,123
I backed pillars on Kickstarter, sure that i would love it, since i love both planescape/baldur's and other obsidian games, but ended up not liking it.

Haven't played pillars 2 but in pillars 1:

Just like Outer Worlds, i feel like they didn't take any risk, played it too safe.

The customise stronghold was lackluster.

The characters were good but felt disconnected interacting between them.

Sidequest were good but the main story suffer, and putting the big city in the middle of the game didn't help, i spend 10hours in it amd totally forgot what wad main plot.

And the combat, while it was good for a while, once i found my favorite characters and combo, i could do it every single fight, even in the dlc.

Edit: totslly forgot about the mind reading thing, which i find it boring and didn't bring anything lorewise to the universe
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,175
Honestly, I skipped it at launch because I'm totally over RTWP combat. For whatever reason it didn't bother me as much when I was younger with stuff like Baldur's Gate II or Arcanum, but POE 1 made me realize how much I dislike it now.

May go back to Deadfire with the turn-based update, though.
 

Jolkien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,116
Whata shame. Deadfire was better in every single point except how the spell worked. I enjoyed my playthrough of both games, I hope we'll get 3 someday.