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Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
When even the judge can't understand why Apple is claiming that Netflix and xCloud are fundamentally different, when both do the same basic thing (stream entertainment from a remote source).





Twitter text for those who can't read the embed said:
Now we have redirected examination by Epic. He's asking whether people buy the Xbox as a media device or mainly for games; Wright says it's the latter. This is, incidentally, not for lack of trying on Microsoft's part.

The judge steps in and says she's confused by why Apple would require a separate app for every game. "I can use Netflix with a native app and I can see lots of different movies or TV shows or whatever. Is it that you didn't want to use a subscription model?"

"No, we wanted to use the Netflix model," Wright says, explaining Gamepass subscription to the judge.

"[Apple] allows Netflix to do what Netflix does, but it does not allow us to do what Netflix does. And it required making a separate application for every gaming title that has to be individually downloaded and put onto your phone."

Wright just gave what I clock as the first mention of Apple Arcade — basically the closest thing Apple has to a direct Xbox store competitor.

We just wrapped up Wright. We're going over to Andrew Grant, engineering fellow at Epic Games.
 
Last edited:

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Yeah, Apple doesn't have a leg to stand on with this.

They just didn't want it to exist because then people may not use Apple Arcade, so they wanted to make it super inconvenient
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,697
Do we ever hear the answer of the Apple lawyer ?
I would be interested in this case.
 

--R

Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,785
I can't see what you posted (twitter blocked at work) but, do we know why xcloud is even being brought up?

Because Apple lets Netflix have their app on the App Store, but they deny XCloud because they would need to review every game manually, something they don't require with other video streaming services.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
It's interesting because if there was a native app wouldn't apple get 30% but when it's the browser, Apple get nothing?
 

IBetUHav

Member
Oct 27, 2017
397
Is this all setup to get to the meat of the trial which is the stunt Epic pulled? Why is xCloud even being discussed?
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
Apple's true contention is that they wouldn't get a cut of the in-game purchases for cloud games, right?
 

allongo

Member
Jun 29, 2018
97
It's interesting because if there was a native app wouldn't apple get 30% but when it's the browser, Apple get nothing?

apple doesn't get 30% of Netflix users on iOS, unless they subscribed through the App Store.

netflix and Amazon prime video and others are what apple classifies as reader apps, and they have special rules for them, but apple controls if they consider it a reader app.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
The difference is tv shows and movies are static and can't offer you IAP that Apple can't see/control or ask you for your credit card and all of that.

Its pretty obvious the difference
 

IBetUHav

Member
Oct 27, 2017
397
because it was rejected from app store, like Fortnite, and Microsoft was testifying about that today
The xCloud thing is completely different. Fornite was removed from the app store because Epic pulled a ridiculous stunt that they knew went against the contract they signed with Apple.
 
Dec 21, 2017
5,126
Because Apple lets Netflix have their app on the App Store, but they deny XCloud because they would need to review every game manually, something they don't require with other video streaming services.
Right, but what does this have to do with epic? (Sorry if dumb question)

EDIT: I see already answered earlier in the thread. Thanks all.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,219
Good. I am very pro Apple in the Epic v Apple fight and 3rd party stores/billing, but their stance on cloud gaming apps never made a bit of sense.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,238
Is this all setup to get to the meat of the trial which is the stunt Epic pulled? Why is xCloud even being discussed?

Because it is trying to show that the apple is arbitrarily trying to stifle competition in the gaming space, which is part of Epic's contention.

I mean, they are trying to bring down the walled garden and they are making "big" arguments against the fundamental nature of the app store and Apple's gatekeeping.

It's kind of a weird one because MS is very much so on Apple's side on the walled garden and getting a chunk of revenue generated on the platform, they just want xcloud on idevices :p
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
Yeah, Apple doesn't have a leg to stand on with this.

They just didn't want it to exist because then people may not use Apple Arcade, so they wanted to make it super inconvenient
I think it's more than just Apple Arcade.

What I think Apple are afraid of is that a cloud software subscription app is conceptually not all that different to an app store. You can't interact with Netflix content (other than a tiny minority of it, which I'm not sure even works on iOS, and even in those cases the interaction is not particularly dynamic - nothing very different to those old choose-your-adventure books). You can interact with games in real time, and if someone can put a cloud gaming service on the App Store, then logically someone can put a cloud app service on the App Store, and then really big seams start showing in Apple's business model.

That's why Apple said they'd be okay with the service, as long as every game would, ridiculously, be listed separately on the App Store (and they got their cut from in-game purchases but I don't think that's even an issue for xCloud). It's still a competitor to Apple Arcade in that instance - but it fits into Apple's existing business model and that's the bit they care about.
 

Spacejaws

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,816
Scotland
I can understand the difference because Netflix is an upfront subscription for the content whereas in Xcloud can you pay for DLC and MTX and that wouldn't go through Apple? Isn't that very similar to what Epic did with Fortnite?

Possibly a better comparison is Amazon Prime because there you have content but can also pay for rentals and premium movies and I'm not sure if Apple get a cut from those sales but maybe they do. At the very least you can buy on Amazon then watch it through your app. Same with Amazon Music.

Ultimately though it boils down to Apple probably not wanting affordable console grade gaming on phones competing with their own content that doesn't have the horsepower to mach.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
The difference is tv shows and movies are static and can't offer you IAP that Apple can't see/control or ask you for your credit card and all of that.

Its pretty obvious the difference
Except Microsoft was willing and had the ability to turn OFF IAP in that version of xcloud. If I remember right they were turned off on all Android devices except Samsung ones.
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,556
The fact Apple's lawyer didn't come back to try and get Lori Wright to explain the difference between a streamed movie and a streamed game was interesting. I was fully expecting him to drive home the interactivity portion but it didn't happen.
 

--R

Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,785
Right, but what does this have to do with epic? (Sorry if dumb question)

The case is about Apple's policies being applied irregularly and the platform's control over software. MS is one of the affected companies that have been called up.
 

YozoraXV

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,979
Apple's true contention is that they wouldn't get a cut of the in-game purchases for cloud games, right?

That would be my guess, as it would explain why Netflix gets away with it since there are no TV show or movie in-app purchases.

However, doesn't Disney do that for films like Mulan and they are fine with that too.

Edit: Just checked D+ and they do have a separate in-app purchase for Mulan so its does seem like Apple is consistent.
 

Wallace Wells

Member
May 24, 2019
4,843
apple doesn't get 30% of Netflix users on iOS, unless they subscribed through the App Store.

netflix and Amazon prime video and others are what apple classifies as reader apps, and they have special rules for them, but apple controls if they consider it a reader app.
You can't subscribe via the iOS Netflix app. It has to be done though the web
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
The xCloud thing is completely different. Fornite was removed from the app store because Epic pulled a ridiculous stunt that they knew went against the contract they signed with Apple.
That's not really completely different. What Epic wanted to do wouldn't have been allowed with or without their stunt. What is different is that Microsoft said they would have been happy to pay Apple, but at the end of the day both apps face the same problem: Apple's store policies
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I can understand the difference because Netflix is an upfront subscription for the content whereas in Xcloud can you pay for DLC and MTX and that wouldn't go through Apple? Isn't that very similar to what Epic did with Fortnite?

Possibly a bettet comparison is Amason Prime because there you have content but can also pay for rentals and premium movies and I'm not sure if Apple get a cut from those sales but maybe they do. At the very least you can buy on Amazon then watch it through your app. Same with Amazon Music.
IAP and MTX were turned off for non Samsung Android devices. If they were really worried Microsoft was willing to turn it off.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Except Microsoft was willing and had the ability to turn OFF IAP in that version of xcloud. If I remember right they were turned off on all Android devices except Samsung ones.

that I don't know but I assume that Apple couldn't check that since everyone was running server side so that might be an issue.
 

Graefellsom

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,637
Not used Apple Arcade since launch, but all the games on there have separate apps there as well don't they? I guess partly because it's because they aren't being streamed.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,615
The fact Apple's lawyer didn't come back to try and get Lori Wright to explain the difference between a streamed movie and a streamed game was interesting. I was fully expecting him to drive home the interactivity portion but it didn't happen.
Netflix has some interactive movies now though.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
that I don't know but I assume that Apple couldn't check that since everyone was running server side so that might be an issue.
I mean, thats very easy for Apple to check, start up a game pass game, try and get a MTX or IAP.

It's not like its a hard thing to check. Microsoft was also willing to share part of IAP and MTX with them.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Apples lawyer asked Microsoft if Xbox allowed Netflix on their Xbox Store.

Microsoft says yes

Apple asks if Microsoft allows competitive game streaming services on their xbox store?

Microsoft said no
They do however allow competitive game streaming services on Windows.
Also EA Play was allowed in Xbox as well.