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thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
I think, with regard to Wikileaks, that you are oversimplifying a bit. Yes, Wikileaks did well to expose war crimes and rights violations by the American government. But Assange and Wikileaks ultimately became a tool of Putin and the Russians. Assange himself is a bad person too. So there's that.

Two points:

1. I think Assange has said bad, unwoke things. He's got well-documented issues with women, trans people and feminism. I also think, given the nature of his work and his current arbitrary detention in the Ecuadorian embassy that he's attempted to play an opportunist political game to curry favor with anyone who might help him get free. It's not surprising that he's made overtures to the US right wing when liberals want him hanged. Over the course of his public life from the time he was free, to several years in captivity (PLEASE watch his 2012 TV series The World Tomorrow), I think he's generally been on the progressive side of most issues.

2. The idea that Assange or Wikileaks are "tools of russia" is total conspiracy theory, approaching Alex Jones territory. If the Russian GRU, under the guise of Guccifer 2.0 actually were the source of the DNC emails (and I don't have a big objection to that idea), WL did the right thing by releasing the material. If Guccifer gave the emails to the NYT, and the NYT didn't release them, it would be an unbelievable failure of journalism. Not saying WL's approach to dumping the entire archive was the best way to go, but any outlet worth consideration would have published stories from that material. To say WL are tools of Russia, you'd have to show some deeper collaboration, and it hasn't been shown by the Mueller investigation or anywhere else.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Two points:

1. I think Assange has said bad, unwoke things. He's got well-documented issues with women, trans people and feminism. I also think, given the nature of his work and his current arbitrary detention in the Ecuadorian embassy that he's attempted to play an opportunist political game to curry favor with anyone who might help him get free. It's not surprising that he's made overtures to the US right wing when liberals want him hanged. Over the course of his public life from the time he was free, to several years in captivity (PLEASE watch his 2012 TV series The World Tomorrow), I think he's generally been on the progressive side of most issues.

2. The idea that Assange or Wikileaks are "tools of russia" is total conspiracy theory, approaching Alex Jones territory. If the Russian GRU, under the guise of Guccifer 2.0 actually were the source of the DNC emails (and I don't have a big objection to that idea), WL did the right thing by releasing the material. If Guccifer gave the emails to the NYT, and the NYT didn't release them, it would be an unbelievable failure of journalism. Not saying WL's approach to dumping the entire archive was the best way to go, but any outlet worth consideration would have published stories from that material. To say WL are tools of Russia, you'd have to show some deeper collaboration, and it hasn't been shown by the Mueller investigation or anywhere else.

You have no idea what journalism or ethics are if you think getting a stack of hacked emails means you instantly release them.

The fact that you think the NYT not realizing hacked emails is "a failure of journalism" shows how much knowledge you actually lack on this subject
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
Two points:

1. I think Assange has said bad, unwoke things. He's got well-documented issues with women, trans people and feminism. I also think, given the nature of his work and his current arbitrary detention in the Ecuadorian embassy that he's attempted to play an opportunist political game to curry favor with anyone who might help him get free. It's not surprising that he's made overtures to the US right wing when liberals want him hanged. Over the course of his public life from the time he was free, to several years in captivity (PLEASE watch his 2012 TV series The World Tomorrow), I think he's generally been on the progressive side of most issues.
Lul, you're caping for a criminal trying to escape justice.
I want to read your take on Chapo.
"A freedom fighter trying to provide products people really want".

2. The idea that Assange or Wikileaks are "tools of russia" is total conspiracy theory, approaching Alex Jones territory. If the Russian GRU, under the guise of Guccifer 2.0 actually were the source of the DNC emails (and I don't have a big objection to that idea), WL did the right thing by releasing the material. If Guccifer gave the emails to the NYT, and the NYT didn't release them, it would be an unbelievable failure of journalism. Not saying WL's approach to dumping the entire archive was the best way to go, but any outlet worth consideration would have published stories from that material. To say WL are tools of Russia, you'd have to show some deeper collaboration, and it hasn't been shown by the Mueller investigation or anywhere else.
You do know that WL has the GOP emails but choose to not release them, right?
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
rofl

how does someone get like this?

It's really sad seeing this behavior become so rampant around here. We even have calls for bans in this very thread because a few posters have fringe ideas compared to most other posters on ERA. It's not healthy at all. I think thebishop has it terribly wrong, but there's no reason to think he's going to bat for Putin or trolling people with alt-right views or anything.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
It's really sad seeing this behavior become so rampant around here. We even have calls for bans in this very thread because a few posters have fringe ideas compared to most other posters on ERA. It's not healthy at all. I think thebishop has it terribly wrong, but there's no reason to think he's going to bat for Putin or trolling people with alt-right views or anything.
His last thread was a "Trump did nothing wrong!" one.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
His last thread was a "Trump did nothing wrong!" one.
boogie2988_middle_by_digi_matrix-db3h3ud.gif
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
You have no idea what journalism or ethics are if you think getting a stack of hacked emails means you instantly release them.

The fact that you think the NYT not realizing hacked emails is "a failure of journalism" shows how much knowledge you actually lack on this subject

The idea of journalists reporting on illegally-obtained or fully anonymously obtained material is not a controversial issue. It's not a journalist's job to guarantee the honorable motives of a source (if it was, you might ask about those leaked Trump tax returns). It's a journalists job to validate the authenticity and public value of the information. In the case of the DNC emails, the content was indisputably accurate and in the public interest.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
Liberals are mad that Manning attended a party hosted by Mike Cernovich
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/22/chelsea-manning-far-right-trump-gather-intel

It's atrocious for armchair #resisters to pass judgement on somebody (a trans woman no less!) who has endured unbelievable suffering so the rest of us can know just a glimpse of the evil our government does abroad. I can't believe they lack the self awareness of this.
What in the world does her being a trans woman have to do with anything?

2. The idea that Assange or Wikileaks are "tools of russia" is total conspiracy theory, approaching Alex Jones territory. If the Russian GRU, under the guise of Guccifer 2.0 actually were the source of the DNC emails (and I don't have a big objection to that idea), WL did the right thing by releasing the material. If Guccifer gave the emails to the NYT, and the NYT didn't release them, it would be an unbelievable failure of journalism. Not saying WL's approach to dumping the entire archive was the best way to go, but any outlet worth consideration would have published stories from that material. To say WL are tools of Russia, you'd have to show some deeper collaboration, and it hasn't been shown by the Mueller investigation or anywhere else.

Refusing to publish stolen campaign material is not a failure of journalism. You are absolutely clueless.

It's really sad seeing this behavior become so rampant around here. We even have calls for bans in this very thread because a few posters have fringe ideas compared to most other posters on ERA. It's not healthy at all. I think thebishop has it terribly wrong, but there's no reason to think he's going to bat for Putin or trolling people with alt-right views or anything.
I don't think he should be banned but defending Wikileaks as not a tool of Putin's government at this point is just intellectually dishonest at best.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
The idea of journalists reporting on illegally-obtained or fully anonymously obtained material is not a controversial issue. It's not a journalist's job to guarantee the honorable motives of a source (if it was, you might ask about those leaked Trump tax returns). It's a journalists job to validate the authenticity and public value of the information. In the case of the DNC emails, the content was indisputably accurate and in the public interest.
We all needed to know Podesta's risotto recipe.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
The idea of journalists reporting on illegally-obtained or fully anonymously obtained material is not a controversial issue. It's not a journalist's job to guarantee the honorable motives of a source (if it was, you might ask about those leaked Trump tax returns). It's a journalists job to validate the authenticity and public value of the information. In the case of the DNC emails, the content was indisputably accurate and in the public interest.

https://www.eater.com/2016/10/11/13246824/wikileaks-john-podesta-clinton-risotto



PUBLIC VALUE
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
it's pretty ridiculous. who hasn't ended up in a washington dc escape room surrounded by alt right icons? that's probably the shtick of the escape room. be surrounded by the most repugnant individuals to make you want to escape faster.

8sbFDEO.jpg
Manning defenders & Assange apologists: "We forgive you, queen"
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
You do know that WL has the GOP emails but choose to not release them, right?

I see this claim on donut twitter a lot, yet nobody can show anything close to a credible source on the question. Here's the best example I've found:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/obama-russia-election-hack.html

tl;dr: Anonymous "intelligence officials" claims that Russia hacked GOP servers, but no evidence or detail about the nature of the documents presented. No claim that Russia provided those documents to wikileaks (which doesn't look good for your point, friend). Also, fwiw, GOP officials deny their networks were compromised.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
I tend to find that Chelsea's hard to read. There's no doubt she was right to leak what she did, and whilst the alt-right group pics from a while back come up regularly it's probably worth mentioning there's far more examples of her being with people on the left which kind of suggests there's more to her. On the other hand defending Wikileaks/Assange like this is an incriminating/dumb choice unless maybe she fears for her life? Though I suppose she could just not want to co-operate with a government that's done such harm to her in which case fine, but this is still the inevitable outcome.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I mean do you do Escape Rooms with iconic members of a hate movement?


---
She has no moral ground not to testify here.

She's not fighting the man here, she's not standing up for progressiveness or anything.
Wasn't it supposedly opposition research/ also trying to pull a long term friend from the brink? I've seen her involved in left wing circles waaaaay more, including the likes of contrapoints and HBomberguy.

To be fair I don't understand her resistance on being forthright here, but the "have fun rotting in jail" attitude about her is really kind of gross.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
I think at this point we know thebishop is just going to shill right wing/Russian talking points.

just set to ignore and enjoy your day
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
I see this claim on donut twitter a lot, yet nobody can show anything close to a credible source on the question. Here's the best example I've found:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/obama-russia-election-hack.html

tl;dr: Anonymous "intelligence officials" claims that Russia hacked GOP servers, but no evidence or detail about the nature of the documents presented. No claim that Russia provided those documents to wikileaks (which doesn't look good for your point, friend). Also, fwiw, GOP officials deny their networks were compromised.
GoP also claim to have no one in their rank favoring Russia.
They claim a lot of stuff.
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
I think you need to re-analyze your take here. This is kind of a messed up position. Whistleblowing is a necessary service to our country. Also, no she is not a friend to neonazis you've fallen for some bs.

Please do show ANYONE who is arguing we dont need whistleblowers. I'll be waiting. As to the neonazis? You're ignoring facts.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Wasn't it supposedly opposition research/ also trying to pull a long term friend from the brink?

Look if you buy the I hung out and played fun games with a bunch of hate mongers while being a supposedly famous lefty for oppo research...

I think she was probably lonely and she's just not that smart.

That said she refuses to speak ill of Assange and Wikileaks so I also don't trust her much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,144
Still waiting for those collusion indictments, friend.


Tell me who Viktor Yanukovych is, his association with what Manafort is being charged with, and why he has nothing to do with the Russian government. I'll be waiting. I'll even bet a ban on it.

2. The idea that Assange or Wikileaks are "tools of russia" is total conspiracy theory, approaching Alex Jones territory. If the Russian GRU, under the guise of Guccifer 2.0 actually were the source of the DNC emails (and I don't have a big objection to that idea), WL did the right thing by releasing the material. If Guccifer gave the emails to the NYT, and the NYT didn't release them, it would be an unbelievable failure of journalism. Not saying WL's approach to dumping the entire archive was the best way to go, but any outlet worth consideration would have published stories from that material. To say WL are tools of Russia, you'd have to show some deeper collaboration, and it hasn't been shown by the Mueller investigation or anywhere else.
This is also bullshit. You act as if these media outlets don't clear sensitive stories with the relevant agencies before publishing over security threat concerns. That is a part of journalism.
 
Last edited:

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758

If you want to discuss WL's approach to publishing mostly unredacted archives, we could probably find a lot of agreement. I'm mixed on the question, but mostly agree with Glenn Greenwald's criticisms of WL. But if you want to act like there weren't dozens of extremely accurate and newsworthy stories in the DNC/Podesta archive, it makes me doubt your intellectual honesty.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Imagine defending someone who's friends with Nazis because they're not ratting out a Russian sponsored organization. All in the name of journalistic freedom.

It's like defending tigers in the name of preserving the antelope.