Judge jails former Army intelligence analyst Chelsea Manning for refusing to testify to a grand jury probing Wikileaks.

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,597
This is 100% wrong if you've been validly subpoenaed.
Okay, that's a fair point, but what is the justification for the subpoena?

Again, the question here is not a legal one -- it's clear that legal authority exists to imprison her. The question is how it serves our country, and us as citizens, to imprison her for refusing to testify before a grand jury.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,741
Okay, that's a fair point, but what is the justification for the subpoena?

Again, the question here is not a legal one -- it's clear that legal authority exists to imprison her. The question is how it serves our country, and us as citizens, to imprison her for refusing to testify before a grand jury.
They’re investigating Wikileaks and presumably the grand jury has questions for her. She was granted immunity and has an absolute obligation to comply with questioning. Jail in this case isn’t a punishment but a means to get compliance.
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,598
Okay, that's a fair point, but what is the justification for the subpoena?

Again, the question here is not a legal one -- it's clear that legal authority exists to imprison her. The question is how it serves our country, and us as citizens, to imprison her for refusing to testify before a grand jury.
It's no different than if you witnessed a car crash or a robbery and you were subpoenaed to testify about what you saw. If you are served with the subpoena, you must appear and testify truthfully, or else you can be held in contempt. One of the sanctions for contempt is to be held in custody until you comply. It "serves our country" to make sure that people testify about what they know.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,225
Okay, that's a fair point, but what is the justification for the subpoena?

Again, the question here is not a legal one -- it's clear that legal authority exists to imprison her. The question is how it serves our country, and us as citizens, to imprison her for refusing to testify before a grand jury.
It serves the country by maintaining a system that results in people providing testimony when requested. The alternative is a Wild West where no one shows up to testify without a vested interest.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,661
Chelsea Manning has released a statement:
Sounds like she wants to stay in jail then.

Edit: Wait, isn't this a federal grand jury? What's the basis of her argument then? "I don't like the text of the 5th Amendment so I'm going to pretend like it doesn't exist"? That's some sovereign citizen type bullshit.
 
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Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
I'm just fascinated by the fact you treat russia as if you're living under the cold war. For what? Ok wikileaks is a laundering program for the FSB. What prevents the US, an endlessly more resourceful nation, from having a similar operation?
Welcome to the 2010's. There's a new Star Wars sequel trilogy that has two movies already released with a third one coming soon.

I agree you should have sovereignty. The question then remains did the russians commit unforgivable crimes in regards to your elections? Should they be nuked for helping the opposition or should you move away further from democracy? Or is the whole thing just a big sham and an excuse for the dogshit democratic party?
Your options are to nuke them, move away from democracy, or thinking that it is a big sham to cover up for the democratic party?

wtfamIreading
 

Apharmd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
I'm accusing you of being impossible to take seriously because you're using the term "deep state" without irony.

Are you trying to do a bit, here? Am I getting trolled? If you're trying to make a salient point, wipe those words from your mouth and come up with a way to phrase what you're trying to say that doesn't immediately associate you with literally the dumbest people on the planet. The words "deep state" don't have any business in an adult conversation except when quoted as "hilarious dumb shit Alex Jones has said".
When I use the term, I am referring to a conflux of military-corporate-intelligence which operates essentially apolitically, with little oversight, and uses any means necessary to achieve their ends, including espionage, assassination, arms laundering, cyberwarfare, domestic surveillance, and up to outright projection of force. Again, I think you fail to realize that this is not a new thing for those on the left, or among POC and/or Muslims, who have been their most-frequent targets.

Alex Jones and his ilk have co-opted "deep state" and used it to refer to the internal resistance to President Trump and to certain conservative/libertarian ideas. They also apply to it a generous helping of antisemitism and include banks, etc. This is not what I am referring to.

If you would prefer, I would use the term "the military-industrial complex and intelligence communities", but that is quite a mouthful. "MIC" also works but it neglects the intelligence aspect.
 

Deleted member 8777

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Your options are to nuke them, move away from democracy, or thinking that it is a big sham to cover up for the democratic party.

wtfamIreading
Hard to imagine any other options in regards to committing to a fight with an enemy that's mostly imaginary. Do you confuse US sovereignty with imaginary actions on behalf of reaction to russia too, lib?
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
Hard to imagine any other options in regards to committing to a fight with an enemy that's mostly imaginary. Do you confuse US sovereignty with imaginary actions on behalf of reaction to russia too, lib?
You think Russia's increased aggression, political manipulation, social manipulation, and cyber operations are a fantasy? I don't know how to help you.
 

Deleted member 8777

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You think Russia's increased aggression, political manipulation, social manipulation, and cyber operations are a fantasy? I don't know how to help you.
What about north korea's? The question is do you genuinely believe the level of nationalist panic raised by this shit? What do you actually think is gonna happen? Russia is gonna steamroll europe, soviet style? What are you so afraid of?
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
What about north korea's? The question is do you genuinely believe the level of nationalist panic raised by this shit? What do you actually think is gonna happen? Russia is gonna steamroll europe, soviet style? What are you so afraid of?
North Korea's cyber capabilities have gotten better, but their outside influence is a lot lower. Nuclear arms controlled by a man that seeks pleasure in cannon balling political enemies is always going to be a worry. I mostly feel bad for his citizens living in the misery of NK.
 

Deleted member 8777

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North Korea's cyber capabilities have gotten better, but their outside influence is a lot lower. Nuclear arms controlled by a man that seeks pleasure in cannon balling political enemies is always going to be a worry. I mostly feel bad for his citizens living in the misery of NK.
Nice dodge. Are you still living under the impression Russia is the same people who defeated nazi germany or are they just a garbage turbocapitalist mafia state? Hard to tell the difference because you genuinely seem to believe they are a threat to your timeless empire of capital.
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,720
Nice dodge. Are you still living under the impression Russia is the same people people who defeated nazi germany or are they just a garbage turbocapitalist mafia state? Hard to tell the difference because you genuinely seem to believe they are a threat to your timeless empire of capital.
Do you have a screw loose? What are you talking about? You seem to just be rambling now.
 

EnronERA

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
What is it Manning doesn't want to answer questions about so badly that she's willing to risk 18 months in prison for?
 

TheLostBigBoss

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,930
Nice dodge. Are you still living under the impression Russia is the same people people who defeated nazi germany or are they just a garbage turbocapitalist mafia state? Hard to tell the difference because you genuinely seem to believe they are a threat to your timeless empire of capital.
It's pretty obvious what the goals of Russia are.

The US is inherently fragile due to having an open media and divisive politics that have a lot to do on race. Feeding those fears and stoking the fires causes civil discourse to become chaotic to where someone like Trump can walk into the picture and be viewed as "normal" to the right wing.

Russia has found a way to use the cancer of social media to pump endless fake bullshit into peoples veins, and due to how social media is designed, which is basically created to hack our brains and crave more and more, people are doing nothing but taking in an endless stream of bullshit.

So now the US elected an ineffective leader who is not only withdrawing the US on the global stage, but actively threatening on a monthly basis to kill NATO, the military alliance that is responsible for Europe not having a war since WWII. Since the fall of the USSR, satellite states who fear Russia sought aid and military partnerships with the west so they could have guaranties that Russia couldn't just roll tanks down their roads and reclaim what they lost.

But since you're only response to things are -

Are you a US imperialist capitalist?
I'm gonna say you're probably thebishops alt lol
 

Deleted member 8777

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It's pretty obvious what the goals of Russia are.

The US is inherently fragile due to having an open media and divisive politics that have a lot to do on race. Feeding those fears and stoking the fires causes civil discourse to become chaotic to where someone like Trump can walk into the picture and be viewed as "normal" to the right wing.

Russia has found a way to use the cancer of social media to pump endless fake bullshit into peoples veins, and due to how social media is designed, which is basically created to hack our brains and crave more and more, people are doing nothing but taking in an endless stream of bullshit.

So now the US elected an ineffective leader who is not only withdrawing the US on the global stage, but actively threatening on a monthly basis to kill NATO, the military alliance that is responsible for Europe not having a war since WWII. Since the fall of the USSR, satellite states who fear Russia sought aid and military partnerships with the west so they could have guaranties that Russia couldn't just roll tanks down their roads and reclaim what they lost.

But since you're only response to things are -



I'm gonna say you're probably thebishops alt lol
"The cancer of social media" is messaging very much in line with nazi germany at the time and place. Fearing anything new and more open is the revealing trait of the fascist animal.
 

Deleted member 8777

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so do you have any original thoughts or are you just gonna say stupid things to get people all riled up?
I think you should go first. If you're gonna refer to archaic stereotypes I can do the same. Keep in mind who the subject of this thread is, a woman who was tortured relentlessly by the US government, and the come back to me.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,299
Halifax, NS
"The cancer of social media" is messaging very much in line with nazi germany at the time and place. Fearing anything new and more open is the revealing trait of the fascist animal.
Are you disputing the proven phenomenon of social media being weaponized by foreign actors in order to influence US politics?

The very things that Facebook, Google and Twitter have openly admitted were taking place, and that they still are working to contain?

Because if not you sound like you're calling another user a nazi.
 

Deleted member 8777

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Are you disputing the proven phenomenon of social media being weaponized by foreign actors in order to influence US politics?

The very thing that Facebook, Google and Twitter have openly admitted were taking place, and that they still are working to contain?

Because if not you sound like you're calling another user a nazi.
Why would I dispute it? Why would you ever oppose it?
 

TheLostBigBoss

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,930
I think you should go first. If you're gonna refer to archaic stereotypes I can do the same. Keep in mind who the subject of this thread is, a woman who was tortured relentlessly by the US government, and the come back to me.
You keep going on about American imperialism and try to bait people into braindead arguments, like comparing the massive failings of social media and the practical social engineering that companies are doing to people as " Fearing anything new and more open is the revealing trait of the fascist animal."

It must be hard to think like this in real life and know if you ever reveal these ramblings they will think you're a bit



Because if not you sound like you're calling another user a nazi.
That's because she did
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,019
I wish her luck. I'm not understanding her stance on this but she's making a principled stand. I applaud her courage. Manning is problematic in some ways but she's braver than any of the posters criticizing her here.



Liberals are authoritarian and believe in "law&order" along with worship of existing structures of power, no matter how inhuman. Since Trump took office, hell even before under Obama, there are many posters who slavishly bootlick the deep state here at ERA. Every topic about Snowden, Manning, the Patriot Act, etc. etc. you will find liberals coming out of the woodwork to boot-lick. Every time.
there are many posters who slavishly bootlick the deep state here at ERA
bootlick the deep state here at ERA
I'm genuinely worried that pockets of ERA are really becoming proof of the existence of horseshoe theory. Holy shit.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
6,674
The NSA is the signals intelligence arm of the US government

Wikileaks is a scorched-earth agent of chaos financed by the Russian mafia (which is also the Russian government) masquerading as a beacon of transparency and journalism.
I mean the one thing people didn't expect the NSA to do was basically spy on literally everyone.
Like come back 10 years earlier and that was basically a conspiracy theory.
WL at the very very start of its media life could have been confused as a beacon of transparency to people not really paying attention.
Turns out NSA is spying on everyone and WL is basically a GRU front.
 
Oct 27, 2017
262
It really is sort of amazing to see the extent of the mental gymnastics people will go through in their attempt to uplift Wikileaks as this shining unimpeachable beacon of freedom and truth.
 

Kathartic

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Mar 4, 2019
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I just think that everyone who stands for freedom and democracy must side with manning. I mean, the whole situation from the goverment was and is very antidemocratic.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,290
UK
Hard to imagine any other options in regards to committing to a fight with an enemy that's mostly imaginary. Do you confuse US sovereignty with imaginary actions on behalf of reaction to russia too, lib?
I just find this person funny that he felt compelled to end his post with "lib". Couldn't have come up with a better or longer insult because want to avoid getting banned but now ironically he still got banned.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,092
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I asked this upthread but got no reply so:

Legality and morality aside, what does Chelsea Manning know that they couldn't get from any other witness or from her earlier statements? Wikileaks had hundreds of sources over the years. and thousands of people contacted them and Assange.. are they all being subpoenaed or is Manning a special case? If so, why?
 

EnronERA

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Oct 25, 2017
3,070
I asked this upthread but got no reply so:

Legality and morality aside, what does Chelsea Manning know that they couldn't get from any other witness or from her earlier statements? Wikileaks had hundreds of sources over the years. and thousands of people contacted them and Assange.. are they all being subpoenaed or is Manning a special case? If so, why?
we can only guess, but it seems like it would be something that was not known or not asked or something that had not yet occurred. My money is on any contact with wikileaks or associated individuals since she was pardoned...
 

BrassDragon

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Oct 26, 2017
2,092
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we can only guess, but it seems like it would be something that was not known or not asked or something that had not yet occurred. My money is on any contact with wikileaks or associated individuals since she was pardoned...
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at - if we put aside the possibility that this is some kind of retaliatory subpoena (and we have no reason to think that), it sugests that Manning has some unique (current and applicable) insight into the dialogue between Wikileaks and American citizens.

That lede is getting buried in the controversy.