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esseesse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
489
And what is this cookie-fortune applause light platitude supposed to mean in this specific case?

Read my posts and the thread?

Confronting the abuser is not violence - you can keep saying that, it doesn't make it true. Telling people to stop doing something is not violence. The reason noone is understanding what your saying is it's not true. Changing behaviours means you do have to confront them about it. You may not like it because "violence" but currently the situation is already violent against women, PoC and LGBT. Letting other be violent against someone and not stepping in, but letting something maybe be done about it hours or days later is not an effective strategy. Also we can do those things (which we already do and have yet to help the problem) as well as confront the harassers,

It can be violence depending on how you react. I said that before and will say it again. You can make someone stop doing something with violence which is far from ideal and is a possible outcome of your confrontation. As far as I'm aware some posts share the same opinion as I do:

Disgusting how some of the replies here are "Well, she should have harassed them back".
You guys are also part of the issue if you share this mentality.

There are different ways to solve these issues which I already talked and tried to explain. With that I end my participation in this thread.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Just watched the vid in the op, and I gotta say there just has to be a better way to ban people from online gaming. Or communicating online for that matter. For all the internet spying , data gathering, voice listening that these large corporations pull on us everyday, can't some of that go towards "fixing" the internet and making it a better place? Silence these idiots who berate women.

This makes me remember back then when PS3 had the voice changer and I always use to make sure mines was at the deepest setting because I did not want guys to know I was a girl. A truly painful experience
Damn that's sad.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
You're free to share that solution when you come across it. In the meantime I will continue to give any would-be abusers an earful they won't soon forget.
That doesn't surprise me given the "earful" people get just by simply debating the issue with you here. You are clearly very passionate about this.

But, yeah I hear you, it's definitely a hard (read expensive) problem to solve and doing something is better than doing nothing.
 

toastyToast

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,304
Gamers are garbage. You wouldn't catch me claiming to be some kind of enthusiast because this type of behavior is omnipresent.

Quit playing games with any kind of online communication a long time ago. People rag on Nintendo but tbh I don't want to hear what 99% of people have to say.
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,290
Yea fuck harassment. I just ignore them or call them out on it and report em. The only time I mute people is if they are blaring something over their headset and refuse to turn it down.

It sucks that women have it as bad as they do. There will always be immature teens and man children playing games and we need better engagement from both the community, studios and platform holders to put them in their place. I strongly believe console bans should be allowed if a case is strong enough.

I can already imagine the hilarious tears of a child/manchild who trolled too hard online and got his console banned online permanently.
 

gamerman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
219
Gamers are garbage. You wouldn't catch me claiming to be some kind of enthusiast because this type of behavior is omnipresent.

Quit playing games with any kind of online communication a long time ago. People rag on Nintendo but tbh I don't want to hear what 99% of people have to say.
Me too. I tried it for awhile but I was embarrassed that 99% of the time people would be awful to each other.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Lol - as you''re such a psychologist, maybe you could ask yourself why you feel the need to be constantly trying to score points off people in every thread.

I'm not going to touch the above with a ten foot pole, but your lack of self-awareness is truly something else. :D

I have. You are advocating for people to ignore "trolls" (cos they just want a reaction) and confront "abusers" (as they won't want a confrontation and want to cause harm).

Try again because yet again you utterly fail reading comprehension. At no point did I a) suggest what victims should do, or b) suggest that anyone tries to discern between trolls and abusers during the fact and act differently. Seriously, it's hard to believe anyone could possibly get it so wrong even on purpose!

Read my posts and the thread?

Nah, you don't get to play that card. For the third time, what "violence" do you anticipate that is worse than the original harassment?
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I'm not going to touch the above with a ten foot pole, but your lack of self-awareness is truly something else. :D
Hehehe

Try again because yet again you utterly fail reading comprehension. At no point did I a) suggest what victims should do, or b) suggest that anyone tries to discern between trolls and abusers during the fact and act differently. Seriously, it's hard to believe anyone could possibly get it so wrong even on purpose!
But you are advocating for someone to do so? Victim, bystander, moderator it doesn't really matter who.
 

B.O.O.M.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,756
Why can't people be just decent fucking human beings. But yea gamers, especially when it comes to online multiplayer can be a really toxic bunch
 

Deleted member 15311

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,088
There's not much gaming companies can do,since idiots will use any sort of report system to take revenge for some stupid reason,making the system useless.

I think it's up to the gaming community to shut these idiots up,on the spot. Instead of shrugging it out,just call them out and of course report them although i think that system is useless.
 

esseesse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
489
User Banned (3 Days): Equating resistance to harassment to harassment itself and refusing to support claims with examples or evidence
Nah, you don't get to play that card. For the third time, what "violence" do you anticipate that is worse than the original harassment?

You are not playing that card either. Don't expect me to post an example of harassment or violence as an answer to a situation of harassment or violence. There are already plenty out there and it is rather easy to visualize one in your head if you won't bother to find one.
 

Maxi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
283
So gross, wish the internet didn't become more a cesspit each month :( I wish the general population learnt some decency
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Are these not statements you've made?

trolls like it when they are confronted.
abusers don't like it when they are confronted.
people should confront abusers like you do.

Unbelievable. I'm going to have to spoon-feed it to you, am I not?
*sigh*
"Trolls like being confronted, abusers do not" was a refutation to the argument that "people should not stand up against abusers, because that's what they want". I'm saying abusers aren't trolls. It does not mean you have to do a fucking psychology exam to your squad mates before deciding whether to stand up for someone else. If someone is hurling insults to someone else for being a woman, or black, they are, by definition, an abuser.
 

Papaya

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,474
California
Most people are just trying to have a good time, but it's unfortunate it takes just a few to ruin everything. There is a large faction of gamers that are just sexist and loud. That mixed with the anonymous nature of games, makes it really tough for certain demographics.

That's why I stopped playing Overwatch. A portion of the community is just terrible.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
It does not mean you have to do a fucking psychology exam to your squad mates before deciding whether to stand up for someone else. If someone is hurling insults to someone else for being a woman, or black, they are, by definition, an abuser.
Finally we are getting somewhere lol. This I agree with 100%.

I think where I feel I disagree is that there are plenty of trolls who will say sexist or racist stuff for a reaction and are not fully sincere in their intent to cause, as you put it, "harm"; but as the "harm" occurs anyway the distinction between them is unnecessary (sexist is as sexist does as it were). Still I think we've been bogged down on this totally irrelevant semantic issue for far too long and it's time to move on.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
You are not playing that card either. Don't expect me to post an example of harassment or violence as an answer to a situation of harassment or violence. There are already plenty out there and it is rather easy to visualize one in your head if you won't bother to find one.
It sounds like you just don't want to engage and yet still want to type

If someone says something sexist or racist and you say "knock it off", you haven't harassed them. And it sets the tone for the rest of the match that this behavior is not acceptable
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
As a male gamer, I can say with confidence that this has never happened to me.

I've been trolled, but never instantly, incessantly, and about everything other than how I'm playing.

Anyone who says this happens to everyone is either lying, doesn't have that much experience with MP games, or just really, really sucks so they get yelled at by their teammates all the time.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
You are not playing that card either. Don't expect me to post an example of harassment or violence as an answer to a situation of harassment or violence. There are already plenty out there and it is rather easy to visualize one in your head if you won't bother to find one.

We both know you aren't posting any examples because they would either 1) be something that cannot actually happen in a game's voice chat conversation, or 2) be far less vile than the abuse itself, exposing you as being only concerned with violence when you're a potential recipient.
 

Deleted member 5727

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
826
It makes me embarrassed at the state of men (boys). I don't even equate it with gaming, necessarily, but with the whole culture -- although for whatever reason, online competitive gaming seems to attract these undeveloped man-children in large numbers. I'm embarrassed at how stupid they sound. I'm embarrassed (for my gender) at how crude they are. I'm embarrassed at how mean they are towards women. And I'm embarrassed that there aren't real men in the room that shut this sh*t down when they hear it. It's just f*cking embarrassing, the whole thing. We have a lot of really screwed up boys/young men out there.

Apologies, ladies. I wish our gender was a hell of a lot better than it is.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,087
Los Angeles, CA
Never said that but that doesn't matter does it. I've been deemed a bad man already so I will see myself out of the discussion. I will continue to speculate on the Pokemon Switch game as I am clearly not welcome here. Thanks.

No one is deeming you anything. All I've seen are people challenging your opinions and asking you to clarify, consider their perspective as well, and now you want to take your ball and go home because your upset that not everyone agrees with your stances.

For a lot of people, this topic hits them hard, and they're passionate about it. Women shouldn't have to alter their behavior when playing video games because men are acting like fucking savages. A bunch of entitled man children that are so small and pathetic that their only outlet for their deplorable perception of women is to harass them behind the anonymity of the Internet. They do it because it makes them feel big and powerful. They do it because they're misogynistic assholes, and the mere thought that a... female, is daring to encroach on "their" hobby gets them frothy mouthed angry.

Speaking out against people bullying women specifically is the only way this shit will start to change. As a black dude, I don't want to hear "nigger this"and "nigger that," every time I want to play a game and dare to choose to play it online and enjoy the full $60 I spent on the game. I don't play much online because of harassment, and I shouldn't be chased away from my hobby because some entitled fuckheads want to act like human trash. Women shouldn't either.

Women asking for allies that are more than just words on a message board isn't a big ask. As humans we should strive to do more. As men, we should call out other men and actively discourage other men from making this behavior normalized. And it is normalized, and that is fucking gross, and why gaming continues to be such an embarrassment to a large portion of the population.

As someone who works in the industry, I also have a leg in the race in terms of the type of environment I want gaming to be for everyone. Not just me and my circle of friends, but all gamers.

My wife shouldn't have to hide her identity or abstain from playing online because men can't control themselves.

If you're so upset at the mere thought of the people in this thread thinking you're a "bad man," imagine how these women feel every single time they try to engage with gaming in any way. You want to discuss Pokémon for the Switch? Talking about games is fun, right? Women can't even discuss games without it turning into a shitshow the moment their gender is revealed. There's a reason why most women on forums don't disclose their gender, and it certainly isn't because other women are making the place feel toxic and uncomfortable.

Put yourself in those shoes for a minute, and try and understand what it's like to have to censor yourself, or hide parts of yourself because it makes you a target the moment something as innocuous as gender is revealed about you.

"Avoid playing with randos," shouldn't even have to be an option, and it wouldn't be if we, as a community of gamers, all put our foot down on that type of behavior. Ditto for game developers giving gamers options on how to report harassers and greifers. Just because the process isn't perfect doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and not try.

Our game isn't perfect, but we're trying to improve the ways our players can report that type of harassment, and we ban people accordingly. It's small, but it's a start.


Edited post for grammar and spelling, and because it came off more confrontational than I intended.
 
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gfxtwin

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,159
LOL, actually pretty tame compared to the harassment and stupidity I hear in GTA online in voice chats sometimes. Online gaming is toxic, it is what it is. What you want to do is get popular fighting game and go one on one with your trolls and if they're mic'd up, beat them down verbally and in the match at the same time.
 
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Deleted member 42351

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 18, 2018
44
Oh lord. Play me a god damned violin.

No one is deeming you anything. All I've seen are people challenging your opinions and asking you to clarify, consider their perspective as well, and now you want to take your ball and go home because your upset that not everyone agrees with your stances.

Someone suggested earlier that someone else should take the harassment cause its the least they could do to give a female a break from it. I pointed out that noone should have to deal with harassment and that having it redirected doesn't solve anything. People disagreed.

For a lot of people, this topic hits them hard, and they're passionate about it. Women shouldn't have to alter their behavior when playing video games because men are acting like fucking savages. A bunch of entitled man children that are so small and pathetic that their only outlet for their deplorable perception of women is to harass them behind the anonymity of the Internet. They do it because it makes them feel big and powerful. They do it because their misogynistic assholes, and the mere thought that a... female, is daring to encroach on "their" hobby gets them frothy mouthed angry.

Completely agree with this statement. Never said anything opposing it.

Speaking out against people bullying women specifically is the only way this shit will start to change. As a black dude, I don't want to hear "nigger this"and "nigger that," every time I want to play a game and dare to choose to play it online and enjoy the full $60 I spent on the game. I don't play much online because I'd harassment, and I shouldn't be chased away from my hobby because some entitled fuckheads want to act like human trash. Women shouldn't either.

Completely agree with this as well. I only play with friends online and when im alone I do not listen to voice chat or participate.

Women asking for allies that are more than just words on a message board isn't a big ask. As humans we should strive to do more. As men, we should call out other men and actively discourage other men from making this behavior normalized. And it is normalized, and that is fucking gross, and why gaming continues to be such an embarrassment to a large portion of the population.

I agree and that is why I do not participate in the behavior.

As someone who works in the industry, I also have a leg in the race in terms of the type of environment I want gaming to be for everyone. Not just me and my circle of friends, but all gamers.

I also work in the industry and want everyone to play the games I work on as well. Which is why I was so glad to see EA and DICE call out the stupidity of recent complaints towards Battlefield V.

My wife shouldn't have to hide her identity or abstain from playing online because men can't control themselves.

I agree and have said nothing to the contrary.

If you're so upset at the mere thought of the people in this thread thinking you're a "bad man," imagine how these women feel every single time they try to engage with gaming in any way. You want to discuss Pokémon for the Swotch, huh? Talking about games is fun, right? Women can't even discuss games without it turning into a shitshow the moment their gender is revealed. There's a reason why most women on forums don't disclose their gender, and it certainly isn't because other women are making the place feel toxic and uncomfortable.

I wasn't upset that anyone thinks I am a "bad man" I was just shocked at how quickly most every comment was attacked by a few posters who were, as you say, "passionate" about the topic. Comments about "mansplaining" and peoples posts being attacked just for stating that there are avenues in place that players can go through to help combat this, turned into the poster being accused of normalizing the activity.

Put yourself in those shoes for a minute, and try and understand what it's like to have to censor yourself, or hide parts of yourself because it makes you a target the moment something as innocuous as gender is revealed about you.

I don't need to, i've seen plenty of videos online, been in REAL discussions about these kinds of activities online at my workplace. My GF used to play WoW and has told me many stories. We play Overwatch together but never use voice chat cause we would rather just talk with each other. I am under no illusion that this isn't a problem. I am well aware of it.

"Avoid playing with randos," shouldn't even have to be an option, and it wouldn't be if we, as a community of gamers, all put our foot down on that type of behavior. Ditto for game developers giving gamers options on how to report harassers and greifers. Just because the process isn't perfect doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and not try.

Never said anyone should "avoid playing with randos". I did state that I only play with friends and when I play solo I never play with a mic and that was twisted into me saying, don't play with randos. There was no between the lines and no hidden meaning. I simply stated how I interact with people online.

Our game isn't perfect, but we're trying to improve the ways our players can report that type of harassment, and we ban people accordingly. It's small, but it's a start.

We do the exact same at work as well. It is a very difficult thing to solve but actively searching for new ways to deal with online harassment is ongoing and never ending. I agree with your statements on the subject. I decided to show myself out once I noticed how the "discussion" in this thread was being conducted. I agree that noone should have to deal with harassment online and that though there are steps in place to help with reporting and blocking, more needs to be done and it starts with your own behavior if you are someone who actively uses voice chat.
 

coconut gun

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
682
I think it's worth it to call these trashbois out tbh. Too often in overwatch when a girl is present some idiot will start running his mouth.

Calling then out usually results in me getting called an "sjw" (lol) or a "cuck" (heh) but I just tell em to take their meme ass buzzwords back to /pol/ and that shuts them up. This works for people being randomly racist or homophobic as well.

Most of the time the rest of the team is on your side, too. They're just not interested in being the one that speaks up, and I get that. But if you feel comfortable speaking up you should
 
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Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
Feels bad for my friend, I usually have to communicate in voice chat for her (though we're increasingly just playing with a full stack in discord so it doesn't matter.)

Imagine being such a loser tho lol
 

OmegaMori

Member
Oct 27, 2017
158
Canada
The gaming community can be so fucked I was playing overwatch and some one picked a character which this other person did not agree with, he got so salty about it. I told him to relax dude it's just a game and he went on saying go suck a dick fag, I responded with you know someone thats looking to get there dick sucked, he was all like ya a fag would say that, I was all ya man dick is pretty good, and he kept calling me a fag I said it that all you can come up with is fag if you are going to talk shit be original and still juts kept call me a fag. It sucks because I don't have many friends who I play xbox online and I love overwatch and best way to play is with a team and people who act like this just ruin it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
It's insane that as a man I will barely put up with a fraction of the sort of voice chat garbage that is in that video.

Like, I already hate 99.999% of "video game culture" garbage. Just imagine I had to deal with that.

I can't even comprehend why anyone would talk like that to anyone. I literally cannot wrap my mind around it.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,087
Los Angeles, CA
Someone suggested earlier that someone else should take the harassment cause its the least they could do to give a female a break from it. I pointed out that noone should have to deal with harassment and that having it redirected doesn't solve anything. People disagreed.



Completely agree with this statement. Never said anything opposing it.



Completely agree with this as well. I only play with friends online and when im alone I do not listen to voice chat or participate.



I agree and that is why I do not participate in the behavior.



I also work in the industry and want everyone to play the games I work on as well. Which is why I was so glad to see EA and DICE call out the stupidity of recent complaints towards Battlefield V.



I agree and have said nothing to the contrary.



I wasn't upset that anyone thinks I am a "bad man" I was just shocked at how quickly most every comment was attacked by a few posters who were, as you say, "passionate" about the topic. Comments about "mansplaining" and peoples posts being attacked just for stating that there are avenues in place that players can go through to help combat this, turned into the poster being accused of normalizing the activity.



I don't need to, i've seen plenty of videos online, been in REAL discussions about these kinds of activities online at my workplace. My GF used to play WoW and has told me many stories. We play Overwatch together but never use voice chat cause we would rather just talk with each other. I am under no illusion that this isn't a problem. I am well aware of it.



Never said anyone should "avoid playing with randos". I did state that I only play with friends and when I play solo I never play with a mic and that was twisted into me saying, don't play with randos. There was no between the lines and no hidden meaning. I simply stated how I interact with people online.



We do the exact same at work as well. It is a very difficult thing to solve but actively searching for new ways to deal with online harassment is ongoing and never ending. I agree with your statements on the subject. I decided to show myself out once I noticed how the "discussion" in this thread was being conducted. I agree that noone should have to deal with harassment online and that though there are steps in place to help with reporting and blocking, more needs to be done and it starts with your own behavior if you are someone who actively uses voice chat.

I know I came off harsh in my post, so sorry for that, but it gets frustrating when these topics crop up, and it's always the same downplaying and putting the onus on the victims of abuse and harassment to change their behavior instead of calling out the harassers and abusers.

I admit most of my post wasn't directed at you, as I had been catching up with the thread and reading so many posts, and being on my commute home from work, I wasn't able to respond to so many of them back to back.

I appreciate you not leaving the unread and instead being thoughtful about the heated response from me. I think I get incredibly frustrated because there's so much BS that women and minorities have to endure to make everyone else comfortable that it takes a toll.
 

Aokiji

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,265
Los Angeles
lol connect to other thread about online behavior linking to real life behavior and people just "blowing off steam". no they're dicks in real life too.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Nothing. I can see that. Thing is, when it actually goes viral, it reaches a big audience which results in action being taken by someone who can actually do something to change the situation for everyone.
What? Certain behaviours are reduced by law not by telling someone to shut the fuck up. How many times do I have say the same bloody thing? If there is no punishment for bad behaviour people WILL continue to do the same thing over and over again.
An activity doesn't have to be deemed illegal by the state for it to become more socially unacceptable due to a communities' values, and how clear they make those values, changing over time. That social pressure/realisation that the wider community thinks an action is disgusting, rather than allowing that party to think any behaviour short of police intervention is fine, is what makes a society (whether that's an online game, a messageboard or a city) what it is. This works both ways, if the wider community is hostile towards players defending each other from abuse, or looks the other way when abuse happens, than that society's values are clearly out of touch with authorities suggesting the values are that everyone is welcome.

Laws are reduced in power to only the comparative strength in numbers of law enforcement (moderation etc) without community support, and stronger with it. The origins of the modern police force enshrined that it represents community values policing itself with the support of the community, for good or ill. When there is a disconnect between community values, enforcement of those values and the active/passive support of those values, that society is broken.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,458
NC
Hey guys how has this thread progress--

JovialBadGecko-size_restricted.gif

Someone actually typed that shit? Fucking hell....
 

DarkwaterV2

Member
Oct 26, 2017
274
Multiplayer games need comprehensive options to salvage the fun in these situations. Text mute, chat mute, for specific players and for specific teams. If one specific person is bothering someone, then you need to be able to silence one specific person.
 

Deleted member 5727

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
826
I think it's worth it to call these trashbois out tbh. Too often in overwatch when a girl is present some idiot will start running his mouth.

Calling then out usually results in me getting called an "sjw" (lol) or a "cuck" (heh) but I just tell em to take their meme ass buzzwords back to /pol/ and that shuts them up. This works for people being randomly racist or homophobic as well.

Most of the time the rest of the team is on your side, too. They're just not interested in being the one that speaks up, and I get that. But if you feel comfortable speaking up you should

Good. I'd take it one step further and say you should speak up even if you don't feel comfortable. I'd say it's your job as a man in the room, to call out people who are being abusive to women.

We can talk about muting players all you want, but what really needs to happen is for the culture itself to self-correct -- in other words, for the men in the room to stand up and shut down these morons. To put them in their place. Just call them out as the emotionally and socially stunted little bullies they are. It doesn't matter if the whole match goes down in flames because of it. It's worth setting the example and sending the message that this kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated -- by other men.

Women can stand up against it too, of course, and should, but I think a major responsibility falls to the men in the room, who usually outnumber the women. Also, men are primarily responsible for enforcing gender norms on men (just like women do with women) -- they tell other men what's okay and what's not okay. If you don't say anything, you're implicitly condoning it.

Besides, these turds won't listen to a woman's feedback -- they disrespect women and will probably get excited by her responding to them. But their behavior is a dominance display in part for other men -- they think they are showing how tough and dominant they are. Of course, what they're actually doing is showing how weak and stupid they are. But they need to hear that from the men in the room. Tell them they're acting like a socially retarded 13 year old who doesn't know jack sh*t about women.

Anyhow... sorry for that little rant. I just think we should stop waiting for moderators or mute buttons to do the trick and take the responsibility on ourselves. If you are a man and you hear this kind of talk, call it out as the stupidity that it is. Do your best to shame the perpetrator.

I don't mean any of this to say we need to "come to the rescue" of the woman. Chances are, if she's there, she's heard lots of this and has developed thick skin. I'm talking about this as simply a man's responsibility to tell other men when they're out of line. If you hear this stuff, I think you've got a responsibility to call it out and condemn it.
 
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