If you're the president of the United States, then probably not; they will say "well, what you did is technically illegal in a few ways, but I guess only Congress can do something about it"
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Justice Department releases redacted Mueller report (See Threadmarks for Summaries)
- Thread starter GK86
- Start date
If you're the president of the United States, then probably not; they will say "well, what you did is technically illegal in a few ways, but I guess only Congress can do something about it"
It's insane how "successful" Trump's go-to defense of "deny, deny, deny" is with his base. Like, the guy never owns up to anything, and even when it's ultimately accepted by everyone that he's lied, people have moved on to whatever Trump's next big controversy is. Like, has he ever commented on the Stormy Daniels incident since its left the headlines (this being one of countless examples)? Nobody seems to really hold his feet to the fire, and Trump subsequently never has to account for any of his misdeeds. It's really fucking ridiculous...
Problem is, he does so much illegal and awful shit that there's only so much time in the day to push each one.
When you remember that their primary objective is to "own the libs" then it makes sense. Even if they personally realize the shit he did, they would never admit it lest they allow the libs to feel good about anything ever.
House will impeach but Senate will overturn and Trump will go on about "winning," and people will be energized to vote for him again. Without removal, impeachment will probably just get us 4 more years of Trump (at this point).
Republicans impeached Clinton in the House and look what happened.
Republicans impeached Clinton in the House and look what happened.
Weak as hell.
Basically your saying "lets just roll over and die for now and take our chances in the election because it seems safer".
A sample size of one is not something to go on. Clinton is not Trump.
Look, I hate to be a part of the dogpile, here.... But how can you read the report and come to that conclusion?
1) He lists ~10 specific instances in which Trump tried to get someone to interfere with the investigation (you know... The actual definition of obstruction).
2) Summarizes this by stating 'We can't say he didn't commit a crime, that's up to Congress to decide' (why would he explicitly state that Trump was innocent of criminal conspiracy, which he did, and then suddenly decide not to do this in the same report)?
3) There had been speculation for months that he didn't believe it was within the jurisdiction of the ISC to indict a sitting president.
You have to have a really charitable reading of the report to think that he believes the president didn't obstruct justice.
Like, y'all really just want to see him impeached but not removed? Furthermore, ACQUITTED of the charges?
Or do y'all believe we will get 67 votes in the Senate for removal?
I just don't think this is enough to get enough Republicans on our side for removal. I wish it was but I have no faith in Republicans.
Or do y'all believe we will get 67 votes in the Senate for removal?
I just don't think this is enough to get enough Republicans on our side for removal. I wish it was but I have no faith in Republicans.
As has been said countless times in this thread over just the last few pages, impeachment isn't just about removal from office. I'd wager nearly everyone here wishes we could just kick him out. But the US Constitution demands that Congress investigate the president under circumstances like this, and impeachment is that investigation and trial process. It's about showing that the government, with its checks and balances, still operates the way it's supposed to. If Republicans choose to not prosecute him after it's made abundantly clear in the House that he repeatedly and flagrantly broke the law, then they'll have to own that.
Factor in too there's only 1 WH press conference every 2 months or so now, and the rare times Trump talks to not-Fox it's when he's heading to a helicopter so he can bail after 1 question without it looking like he's hiding.
Better that then just sitting with our thumbs up our ass and admitting a president can commit all kinds of crime as long as he has half of Congres.
No, I am saying I don't think this will be enough to get Republicans on our side to get 67 votes in the Senate for removal.
If the unredacted report is as damning as we all hope (that is to say, even more damning) then maybe, MAYBE the Republicans will flip.
But that's the reality. :(
He finally finished the tweet 8+ hours later.
@[B]realDonaldTrump[/B] 1m1 minute ago
....big, fat, waste of time, energy and money - $30,000,000 to be exact. It is now finally time to turn the tables and bring justice to some very sick and dangerous people who have committed very serious crimes, perhaps even Spying or Treason. This should never happen again!
@[B]realDonaldTrump[/B] 1m1 minute ago
....big, fat, waste of time, energy and money - $30,000,000 to be exact. It is now finally time to turn the tables and bring justice to some very sick and dangerous people who have committed very serious crimes, perhaps even Spying or Treason. This should never happen again!
I don't get this line of thought at all. "He wasn't indicted so it was his right to end the investigation". Why are these people ignoring that if the investigation was successfully ended by Trump, that would mean we'd never learn about and penalize Russian influence in our election, REGARDLESS of Trump. All the people who got arrested, pled guilty, were charged -- if he stopped the investigation, all those criminals would be free. I just don't understand how you can say it would be his right to end the investigation even if he truly thought it was a hoax.
I'm a little surprised that we're acting like Bill Clinton's experience with impeachment is going to be repeated when the real comparison is to Nixon (except that Trump is more feckless).
Here's a report that shows tremendous examples of self-dealing, blatant corruption, intimidation, de facto witness tampering, and a wink and a nudge and a dare to impeach. And the last time a Republican president was facing something this grave, how did it end? He resigned (I know Donald won't), his successor who wasn't directly tainted by the scent of scandal (Gerald Ford was appointed to the vice presidency) nevertheless pardoned him, and the Republicans paid a price.
Ford had an advantage in that he wasn't directly implicated, and he was still defeated on his own because he denied America catharsis from the Nixon experience. And even if Trump is removed, President Pence would at least have to ask why in the hell he he was willing to debase himself for one of the most unrepentant sinners of the age. Did Mike Pence commit a crime? Maybe not. Did he aid and abet a criminal-ass Administration? Yup.
So did the representatives and senators that acquiesce to this government. They debase themselves to defend a man they know was corrupting the office beyond belief. Throw Out the Crooks 2020.
Here's a report that shows tremendous examples of self-dealing, blatant corruption, intimidation, de facto witness tampering, and a wink and a nudge and a dare to impeach. And the last time a Republican president was facing something this grave, how did it end? He resigned (I know Donald won't), his successor who wasn't directly tainted by the scent of scandal (Gerald Ford was appointed to the vice presidency) nevertheless pardoned him, and the Republicans paid a price.
Ford had an advantage in that he wasn't directly implicated, and he was still defeated on his own because he denied America catharsis from the Nixon experience. And even if Trump is removed, President Pence would at least have to ask why in the hell he he was willing to debase himself for one of the most unrepentant sinners of the age. Did Mike Pence commit a crime? Maybe not. Did he aid and abet a criminal-ass Administration? Yup.
So did the representatives and senators that acquiesce to this government. They debase themselves to defend a man they know was corrupting the office beyond belief. Throw Out the Crooks 2020.
We can impeach without removal and air Trump's dirty shit for months on national television, at minimum.
...yeah, when you put it like that it sounds pretty good.
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Weren't you the guy who spent the whole Barr summary thread telling us it was all over and to take the L?
Mueller is of the belief a sitting President cannot be indicted, no matter what he finds.
You know what will energize his base? A gay opponent, a black opponent, a woman opponent, Obama's vice president as an opponent, a guy with a hispanic nickname as an opponent, a socialist opponent, basically anyone with a D next to their name as an opponent.
Impeachment wont be what causes Trump to win reelection.
One of his weekends at a Trump golf course, like he's currently at, cost 10-12 million per trip to taxpayers. He goes basically 4 out of 5 weekends
It's not just merely a belief. He's bound by DoJ policy and has no ability to override it.
I think it's in response to moving the goalpost from collusion to obstruction.
Personally I'm glad these prosecutions and investigations are happening, and I hope Congress moves to impeach based on Trump's behavior during the investigation. But the Putin's Puppet bullshit needs to be put to rest.
The collusion case is over, and it ended how I thought it was going to end. Trump was never going to end up in cuffs being ushered off to prison, contrary to what many people here thought. That *is* a victory for Trump.
And he's not going to be removed from office, even if Dems move forward with impeachment. Will it hurt or help the party come 2020? I leave that to better political minds to decide... I trust Pelosi.
But yes, my main point that this is still a big political victory for Trump is accurate. The average, uninformed voter will believe that he's innocent because he wasn't escorted off the WH in cuffs. The Dems are in an unenviable position because if they don't move forward with impeachment based on the obvious Obstruction of Justice, they'll get lambasted by their base and if they do move forward with it, it could very well backfire spectacularly (as it has literally every other time someone has been impeached, sans Nixon who simply chose resign). Mueller stopping short of finding him guilty of criminal conspiracy is a political victory for Trump, even though the actual report is pretty damning.
No goalpost was moved because collusion is not and never has been a crime. Team Trump gave sensitive info to Russia that helped them with their election interference operations, as per the Mueller report. I don't care if that doesn't reach the legal definition of "conspiracy" just because intent can't be proven, it clearly undermines American democracy and should result in removal from office. Saying "well there's nothing there because it didn't reach the extremely high threshold for conspiracy" is a sad response.
Unless he gets permission from the AG.
...fucking lol. System is so broken.
First off, just because you saw some people who believed the Mueller report would end with Trump in cuffs doesn't mean that's what most people believed. We've known for a while now the DOJ position is that you can't indict a sitting president, so that was always a longshot. However, not being able to clear the president of impeachable crimes is not a "win", it's just a talking point from Republicans you've internalized and are now regurgitating. If Obama was investigated and the report said "we cannot clear him of impeachable offenses, we found too much evidence", would you call that a "win"?
Exactly. The amount of evidence against Trump is overwhelming. If people think Trump will get through the entirety of an impeachment investigation and trial looking better than before I'd wager they're not paying attention.
So what if he claims victory? He already claims victory about everything even when he loses. He's claiming victory now about being exonerated even when the report literally says he isn't. There's no reason to fold on impeachment simply because of what Trump might do. That would be fully giving control of the narrative to Trump, who will then claim innocence and therefore victory because he wasn't impeached.
You think Trump told Manafort to give polling data to Putin?
I hope I don't sound like a smartass, but if your concern is the protection of democracy in America, I can think of some other things I'd prioritize such as systematic voter-disenfranchisement fueled by the GOP's claims of non-existent voter-fraud, efforts to make more than two political parties possible in America, possibly the destruction of the electoral college, and any effort towards direct democracy whether it be in the workplace or at the federal level.
Oh my God he was a Campaign Chairman for Trump, and Trump couldn't even conclusively state he didn't know Manfort was doing it! And now we're only allowed to be upset if Trump personally told him directly to do this? He was Trump's guy.
If Hillary's campaign chairman did the same thing, you'd just say "Well Hillary hired them but she's not responsible if they give away internal polling information to a hostile foreign nation"? What kind of crazy logic is that? Also yes we should tackle all of those things but our current president's team aided in an attack on our election, and says he "can't recall" if he was aware of this. Why do you not care??
Hey can someone please link me to when the report suggests that the matter should be taken up by congress?
Is it a "talking point I've internalized" if its the fucking truth?
Come back and talk to me in a few weeks when the dust has settled. Again, we know how 80% of the country is going to feel about this anyway. Now we need to know what the people sitting on the fence feel, and until that time comes it's impossible to know. Basing my opinion on historical precedence is more than you've offered.... Which is actually nothing.
Either Trump is a fucking oblivious moron (hint: he is) or he isn't. Unless it was explicitly stated in the Mueller report, and I don't believe it was, you can't assume that Manafort was under direct orders to give anything to Kilimnik... Especially now that we know how deep he was in with the Russian oligarchs.
You aren't the first to make this argument and you may end up getting torn apart by the replies. But what I want to ask is, when in the hell is the R base willing to vote for him ever NOT "energized"?
If you think this report being a "win" for Trump is an objective "truth", I don't know how to help you. At the very least a sensible person would take a step back and say "ok, depending on your political outlook, some people will view this as a win for Trump and others will view it as a loss". Instead, you want to say that somehow, a report that highly implies impeachment is necessary multiple times is an objective "win".
At comparable points in their tenure, Trump has been golfing almost 3x as much as Obama.
Cost to Taxpayer: About $96,000,000
https://trumpgolfcount.com/
... this is all a big political victory for Trump??
I needed a good laugh today, thanks for that.
We'll find out soon enough, won't we?
This was always going to be a political fight, unless grievous crimes were committed. Now we will find out how it fares in the court of public opinion, the very same public that has let us all down and elected this idiot in the first place.
Of course it was.
He wasn't found guilty of a crime. Now the spin war begins... And perhaps you haven't noticed, but the GOP is pretty good at winning spin wars.
The investigation also broke even so it's just another lie, don't even try to counter it.