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Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,634
My issue is with the few people here that want to demonize others for wanting to buy Trover, want to support R&M, or those even wanting support Roiland. Which falls under if you support one white supremacist you support them all BS, as well as well, then you must boycott everything because I can guarantee you there is a WS somewhere in the chain of everything somewhere.

It's fine if you don't want to support Roiland or any of his endeavors. Don't demonize those that want to. Because we skeletons in our metaphorical closets.

I think there's a difference between 'support' and 'ugh, this sucks but I don't think it'll change my choices for now.' Like, I'm still gonna watch Rick and Morty this fall, but I'm not going to follow Roiland elsewhere, and I'm going to be more aware of his role in things going forward.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,634
i don't agree with anything jon said and its really obvious he just got in the "red pill" echo chamber with all the blatantly false shit he was saying, but everything in this thread is a total overreaction. instead of wanting to have a conversation with people you disagree with and influence change, you want to cancel them, end their careers, and toss them to society's basement. all that does is perpetuate this "Us vs. Them" way of thinking. could his apology have been better? definitely, but its hard to imagine him actually changing his beliefs that have likely been developing over years and years instantly from a bunch of harsh backlash. again, i don't agree with the shit that he said but i don't see how cancelling him and anyone remotely affiliating with him is helping anything and seems more like grandstanding to me.

You shouldn't have to have a conversation with people who are racists. If someone wants you dead, or thinks your entire family is genetically inferior to theirs, it's not your job to convince them otherwise. Racism, white supremacists, alt-right, homophobes, etc, are not having 'opinions.'

Cancelling them helps stop it from spreading. Not everyone deserves redemption.
 

numbernine

Banned
Jun 2, 2019
2
You shouldn't have to have a conversation with people who are racists. If someone wants you dead, or thinks your entire family is genetically inferior to theirs, it's not your job to convince them otherwise. Racism, white supremacists, alt-right, homophobes, etc, are not having 'opinions.'

Cancelling them helps stop it from spreading. Not everyone deserves redemption.

in my eyes, "cancelling" anything remotely affiliated with the ideals of white nationalism is just going to hammer in the idea to these people that whites and white nationalist thoughts are oppressed, which is what a lot of that movement is founded upon. a lot of younger people who get drawn into white nationalism get drawn in because the media and the people around them tell them it's wrong, and they develop a curiosity because kids/younger adults have a tendency to engage with things that could be perceived as taboo or edgy.
and while it's unfair to expect people to have rational and honest conversation with people who are spewing hate at them, i don't think jontron "wanted other races dead", or had some deep seeded racism that cannot be changed. he definitely said racist things but they seemed to be more based on misinterpreted/false information he had seen online rather than outright hatred. obviously i can't know what's going on in his head, but i don't think giving him another chance (which he obviously has gotten based on the views his videos are getting) has resulted in a further spreading of racism or white nationalism. even though he didn't give a great apology he did walk back on the extreme/ blatantly false aspects of what he said and as far as i know hasn't been pushing them again online or in his content.
 

Deleted member 28461

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,830
i don't agree with anything jon said and its really obvious he just got in the "red pill" echo chamber with all the blatantly false shit he was saying, but everything in this thread is a total overreaction. instead of wanting to have a conversation with people you disagree with and influence change, you want to cancel them, end their careers, and toss them to society's basement. all that does is perpetuate this "Us vs. Them" way of thinking. could his apology have been better? definitely, but its hard to imagine him actually changing his beliefs that have likely been developing over years and years instantly from a bunch of harsh backlash. again, i don't agree with the shit that he said but i don't see how cancelling him and anyone remotely affiliating with him is helping anything and seems more like grandstanding to me.
Your very first post on this site is in defense of a white nationalist.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
Dan Harmon may have thoughts on Harmontown. I am curious if he says anything.
I doubt Dan knows who JonTron is, and I'm not convinced Justin knows about the clearly white supremecist statements JonTron made. A google search on relevant keywords leads to this thread. This story will have to go viral and even then, it might not hit his radar.
 

HustleBun

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,076
Dan Harmon may have thoughts on Harmontown. I am curious if he says anything.
I wouldn't get your hopes up. He called Chevy a racist windbag, got into massive fights with him and eventually lost Community as a result. He now speaks upon the experience regretfully, often pledging that he wouldn't put a project at risk if he has a conflict with someone. These were scattered comments I've heard via interviews, articles and ironically I think he may referenced this when he was sitting with Danny and Arin, playing Cat in the Hat on PS2 (watch that shit it's amazing).

I would love to hear Harmon call out Roiland but realistically speaking he'll either:

1) try to avoid conflict and ignore it

2) discuss with Roiland privately, we won't hear about it for years

Or

3) Harmon doesn't hear about it, Roiland isn't aware of the Jontron statements (we've had game journalists familiar with JTron ask us what happened, a friend of mine was a fan until I told him about it). Not trying to give Roiland a pass, we know he has some shitty views but it's possible that he didn't know.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,715
LA
i don't agree with anything jon said and its really obvious he just got in the "red pill" echo chamber with all the blatantly false shit he was saying, but everything in this thread is a total overreaction. instead of wanting to have a conversation with people you disagree with and influence change, you want to cancel them, end their careers, and toss them to society's basement. all that does is perpetuate this "Us vs. Them" way of thinking. could his apology have been better? definitely, but its hard to imagine him actually changing his beliefs that have likely been developing over years and years instantly from a bunch of harsh backlash. again, i don't agree with the shit that he said but i don't see how cancelling him and anyone remotely affiliating with him is helping anything and seems more like grandstanding to me.

Because bad faith actors don't deserve to be debated and platformed. They're spreading misinformation and bad data, you can't argue with that.

Just like you, you really just joined this forum yesterday to defend a white nationalism spokesperson?
 

HustleBun

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,076
Y
i don't agree with anything jon said and its really obvious he just got in the "red pill" echo chamber with all the blatantly false shit he was saying, but everything in this thread is a total overreaction. instead of wanting to have a conversation with people you disagree with and influence change, you want to cancel them, end their careers, and toss them to society's basement. all that does is perpetuate this "Us vs. Them" way of thinking. could his apology have been better? definitely, but its hard to imagine him actually changing his beliefs that have likely been developing over years and years instantly from a bunch of harsh backlash. again, i don't agree with the shit that he said but i don't see how cancelling him and anyone remotely affiliating with him is helping anything and seems more like grandstanding to me.
You know, I agree with this in a lot of cases. I've seen Era collectively cancel many people over things that I believed were possible to be redeemed from or possible to discuss in a conversation. Power to you if you want to take a stand when you learn about an actor or musicians politics but the rest of the world won't always follow suit.

But sometimes you have to drawn the line. JonTron is way, way past that line. He quoted fake stats that were created by neo Nazis to dehumanize people of color, he says that immigrants dillute our gene pool, he quoted dailystormer, contributed to Breitbart, defended Richard Spencer.

And finally, in all of his "apologies", he reaffirms his opinions and stands by them.

Nothing that you've said should apply to JonTron. I would love to see him relent and apologize for all the fucked up things he has said, but he had dismissed multiple opportunities to do so and used those moments to stand by his beliefs.

He is actively choosing this path and by and large, people are choosing to accept it and reward his behavior with new projects and staggeringly high YouTube subscriptions.

JonTron does not deserve forgiveness or conversation. He isn't seeking it either.

Does that make sense or will you continue to defend his out and out white nationalism?
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,634
Because bad faith actors don't deserve to be debated and platformed. They're spreading misinformation and bad data, you can't argue with that.

Just like you, you really just joined this forum yesterday to defend a white nationalism spokesperson?

Oh, wait, they just joined yesterday? That explains their lack of capitalization, and looks like they're banned too for good measure.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
Oh, wait, they just joined yesterday? That explains their lack of capitalization, and looks like they're banned too for good measure.

Yep. I was gonna reply then I saw the post count and the join date and just said, "not gonna waste my time". That poster kept referring to apologies that the man himself never actually made. At best, Jon was just trying to soften up his stances but never actually did or say anything to reject those positions. He just hunkered down until shit calmed down then slipped back into what he was doing before as if it never happened.
 

JJAwiiu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
331
What's keeping people from leaving negative comments on the video and disliking it into oblivion? The like vs dislike ratio doesn't signify any controversy and neither do the comments there.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
What's keeping people from leaving negative comments on the video and disliking it into oblivion? The like vs dislike ratio doesn't signify any controversy and neither do the comments there.
The fact that for the most part most have gotten over Jon's comments. At least in the youtube community. He burned bridges with friends and certain industry reps, but seems like it didn't destroy his career since he shifted away from video games.
 

JJAwiiu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
331
The fact that for the most part most have gotten over Jon's comments. At least in the youtube community. He burned bridges with friends and certain industry reps, but seems like it didn't destroy his career since he shifted away from video games.
I guess my point is that this thread is 13 pages long, with 60,000+ views. Jon said some horrendous shit previously, but that doesn't seem to translate to this ad's views and feedback. There's less than 300 dislikes currently on youtube. Looking at this thread, that just seems wild.
 

Books

Alt account
Banned
Feb 4, 2019
2,180
I'm out of the loop, is this jontron still popular with kids? Seems youtube celebrities are in and out real quick with the exception of Ryan's toy reviews.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
I don't know how to discuss anything in here without teasing a ban. I really wish we could talk about how Jon Tron is a bigger idiot than he is a racist while also accepting that he said all those things and that I agree and admire how Destiny debated him.

I am not good enough at talking about any of this to get my arguments across so I only want to ask you to look up what a Useful Idiot is.
 

Neoriceisgood

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,144
What's keeping people from leaving negative comments on the video and disliking it into oblivion? The like vs dislike ratio doesn't signify any controversy and neither do the comments there.

To a lot of people "white ethnonationalist" is a quaint trait akin to someone being left-handed or wearing glasses.
 

Pepe Silvia

Member
Jan 9, 2018
12
I remember him reacting extremely weirdly at the Kanye West controversy. When West shared is uneducated views on slavery in a now very notorious TMZ video and everyone realized how dense and ill-informed Kanye was, Roiland hit him on twitter with a casual tweet along the lines: "hey bro, like the way you see things, we should hang out".

I started realizing what kind of person he was after that.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
I don't know how to discuss anything in here without teasing a ban. I really wish we could talk about how Jon Tron is a bigger idiot than he is a racist while also accepting that he said all those things and that I agree and admire how Destiny debated him.

I am not good enough at talking about any of this to get my arguments across so I only want to ask you to look up what a Useful Idiot is.

No, sorry. You might like the guy but he said some horrific things. He is a bold racist who thinks his incredibly harmful views are okay, it doesn't matter if he's an idiot too he's helping perpetuate the idea that what he claimed is something to be considered fair.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
No, sorry. You might like the guy but he said some horrific things. He is a bold racist who thinks his incredibly harmful views are okay, it doesn't matter if he's an idiot too he's helping perpetuate the idea that what he claimed as something to be considered fair.
I don't like the jontron >:[ and It does matter if he's an idiot because we call easily call out his garbage publicly. What I don't like is cancel culture, I don't like that we treat him like some Nazi general wonderkind, when we should treat him like a clown.

I think it's more effective to constantly, accurately, incessantly call him out on his bullshit rather than hide away in our own spaces silently judging everyone including the people you know who do follow and enjoy his videos.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
I don't like the jontron >:[ and It does matter if he's an idiot because we call easily call out his garbage publicly. What I don't like is cancel culture, I don't like that we treat him like some Nazi general wonderkind, when we should treat him like a clown.

I think it's more effective to constantly, accurately, incessantly call him out on his bullshit rather than hide away in our own spaces silently judging everyone including the people you know who do follow and enjoy his videos.

Deplatroming people who spew hateful and harmful shit should be the default.

Where have you been? We've tried talking with racists, it doesn't work.

Deplatroming works.

Facts.

"Cancel culture" is a buzzword that people use to make the left seem unreasonable, it doesn't actually fit when the person in question is as harmful as Jontron.

Which is all beside the point anyway as he hasn't been cancelled, so your defense if him is utterly unnecessary.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,138
To a lot of people "white ethnonationalist" is a quaint trait akin to someone being left-handed or wearing glasses.

Judging by this trailer's reception, it's more like "to most people" rather than "to a lof of people".
Either we accept that, or consider that it's far more likely most aren't aware or care enough to look into things like this.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
Deplatroming people who spew hateful and harmful shit should be the default.

Where have you been? We've tried talking with racists, it doesn't work.

Deplatroming works.

Facts.

"Cancel culture" is a buzzword that people use to make the left seem unreasonable, it does'nt actually fit when the person in question is as harmful as Jontron.
I don't mind deplatforming actually. That's the answer, straight up.

I wish you would get there a different way because allowing racist like Jon Tron to speak to his audience unchallenged is what everyone would have allowed him to do if the Destiny debate hadn't happened.

I know that debating people who are unreasonable and intolerant can be dangerous, but again, it's not an excuse to allow people like Jon Tron own our major platforms (YouTube, Twitter, Facebook.)

Edit: Just talking to racist won't change their minds or even their core audience, but there is always a ton of people in the middle that never hear their favorite YouTuber, friends, streamers, idols, gey challenged publicly. We talk to racist to turn these people. Which admittedly is hard without an answer to all their bullshit.
 

Pepe Silvia

Member
Jan 9, 2018
12
To all white people and white affiliates who play the card of "let's remain calm, let's give them a chance of evolving, let's ignore them for they are buffoons...", please realize that it's your condition that makes you say that.

It's very easy to "remain calm", "turn the other cheek" and what else when you are exterior to the situation.
Let Youtube get invade with an army of POC streamers that declare on a daily basis that the white race is problematic and must be dealt with then we will see how you react when celebrities and corporations associate with them.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
I don't mind deplatforming actually. That's the answer, straight up.

I wish you would get there a different way because allowing racist like Jon Tron to speak to his audience unchallenged is what everyone would have allowed him to do if the Destiny debate hadn't happened.

I know that debating people who are unreasonable and intolerant can be dangerous, but again, it's not an excuse to allow people like Jon Tron own our major platforms (YouTube, Twitter, Facebook.)

Edit: Just talking to racist won't change their minds or even their core audience, but there is always a ton of people in the middle that never hear their favorite YouTuber, friends, streamers, idols, gey challenged publicly. We talk to racist to turn these people. Which admittedly is hard without an answer to all their bullshit.
The Destiny debate might have exposed John, but it didn't matter in the end. Debating these people doesn't work in that they can always slink back to their audiences if they're still able.

The only way to combat them is to deplatform so less people become entwined in the first place.

Also better education for our children, more grassroots activism on a community level, etc...

Debating racists is not the answer and never has been.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
The Destiny debate might have exposed John, but it didn't matter in the end. Debating these people doesn't work in that they can always slink back to their audiences if they're still able.

The only way to combat them is to deplatform so less people become entwined in the first place.

Also better education for our children, more grassroots activism on a community level, etc...

Debating racists is not the answer and never has been.
I don't know what your saying. How can the Destiny debate not have mattered, when the debate is when we got to hear Jon debase himself further than the intial tweet. Why would we care about Jon Tron if he didn't have his audience of millions. When was a good time to deplatform him?

You aren't even addressing anything I said. Of course debate can work, its a good way to out the real ideas from Useful Idiots or racist, bad faith actors. They may be able to sink back to their spaces but there will always be a record of their ideology.

If we cancel based on anything smaller than a debate (or larger outing off their ideas) we are potentially banning people that don't deserve it, like how lefties sometime get banned alongside the alt-right.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
I guess my point is that this thread is 13 pages long, with 60,000+ views. Jon said some horrendous shit previously, but that doesn't seem to translate to this ad's views and feedback. There's less than 300 dislikes currently on youtube. Looking at this thread, that just seems wild.

It might also be that the type of person who thinks Jontron is an asshole, might also be the type of person who doesn't go around liking or disliking youtube videos to send some sort of internet message.

Of course debate can work, its a good way to out the real ideas from Useful Idiots or racist, bad faith actors.

From my experience debate is never needed to identify an asshole. They pretty much self-identify and then are not worth anybodies time.
If they want a debate, they should earn some damn respect first, then I might listen to what they have to say.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
I don't know what your saying. How can the Destiny debate not have mattered, when the debate is when we got to hear Jon debase himself further than the intial tweet. Why would we care about Jon Tron if he didn't have his audience of millions. When was a good time to deplatform him?

You aren't even addressing anything I said. Of course debate can work, its a good way to out the real ideas from Useful Idiots or racist, bad faith actors. They may be able to sink back to their spaces but there will always be a record of their ideology.

If we cancel based on anything smaller than a debate (or larger outing off their ideas) we are potentially banning people that don't deserve it, like how lefties sometime get banned alongside the alt-right.
Because he still has his platform... I explained this.

I literally addressed everything you said. Discussing doesn't work, it just preaches to either choir. It maybe convincine a few stragglers in the centre is not enough to point at.

It especially is useless when they still have a platform to slink back to.

Want to actually help? Get involved on a grass roots/community level and do some actual good. Debating hateful idiots on or offline is NEVER the answer.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
I don't know what your saying. How can the Destiny debate not have mattered, when the debate is when we got to hear Jon debase himself further than the intial tweet. Why would we care about Jon Tron if he didn't have his audience of millions. When was a good time to deplatform him?

You aren't even addressing anything I said. Of course debate can work, its a good way to out the real ideas from Useful Idiots or racist, bad faith actors. They may be able to sink back to their spaces but there will always be a record of their ideology.

If we cancel based on anything smaller than a debate (or larger outing off their ideas) we are potentially banning people that don't deserve it, like how lefties sometime get banned alongside the alt-right.
Sorry for the DP, but I want to add an important part that I missed.

The very notion of debating these people helps normalize their views as something debatable. THe normalization of right wing hate is something that's a very real threat, and while there are obviously some advantages to debating and exposing, the very core of that idea lends too much credence to their views by default.
 

Trn25

Banned
May 23, 2019
49
Sorry for the DP, but I want to add an important part that I missed.

The very notion of debating these people helps normalize their views as something debatable. THe normalization of right wing hate is something that's a very real threat, and while there are obviously some advantages to debating and exposing, the very core of that idea lends too much credence to their views by default.
Very well said.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
Sorry for the DP, but I want to add an important part that I missed.

The very notion of debating these people helps normalize their views as something debatable. THe normalization of right wing hate is something that's a very real threat, and while there are obviously some advantages to debating and exposing, the very core of that idea lends too much credence to their views by default.
I agree, but did anyone know about JonTron's white supremacy before Destiny's debate? Has anyone debated him since?
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,163
Sorry for the DP, but I want to add an important part that I missed.

The very notion of debating these people helps normalize their views as something debatable. THe normalization of right wing hate is something that's a very real threat, and while there are obviously some advantages to debating and exposing, the very core of that idea lends too much credence to their views by default.
It's fucking gross and the height of fucking privilege.
 

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
I guess my point is that this thread is 13 pages long, with 60,000+ views. Jon said some horrendous shit previously, but that doesn't seem to translate to this ad's views and feedback. There's less than 300 dislikes currently on youtube. Looking at this thread, that just seems wild.
You shouldn't assume anything on ERA represents popular opinion. In this particular case, that's unfortunate since JonTron really is pretty awful.

Also, "debating" people like JonTron is a waste of time and counteproductive. He probably wouldn't even want to at this point since it seems like he realized that it wasn't in his best interest to talk about politics anymore, but more importantly than that, he's way too far gone to make a difference and giving platforms to these people is generally a bad idea. It assumes these people are even capable of having a good faith discussion when the far right thrives on anti-intellectualism and appeals to people's basest and most awful impulses.

Sometimes alt-righters/white supremacists come around but they have to want to come around, it's not really anyone else's job. There can be benefits for other white people (who are at less risk from interacting) to privately reach out to other white people to try and influence them, but that's usually only when they have mild beliefs or are only beginning to become radicalized, which is not the situation here whatsoever. When they are in as deep as JonTron it is just not going to work.
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,221
I remember him reacting extremely weirdly at the Kanye West controversy. When West shared is uneducated views on slavery in a now very notorious TMZ video and everyone realized how dense and ill-informed Kanye was, Roiland hit him on twitter with a casual tweet along the lines: "hey bro, like the way you see things, we should hang out".

I started realizing what kind of person he was after that.
And hasn't Kanye been confirmed to star in upcoming episodes of Rick and Morty?

Fucking hell.
 

Deleted member 20630

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,406
I don't know what your saying. How can the Destiny debate not have mattered, when the debate is when we got to hear Jon debase himself further than the intial tweet. Why would we care about Jon Tron if he didn't have his audience of millions. When was a good time to deplatform him?

You aren't even addressing anything I said. Of course debate can work, its a good way to out the real ideas from Useful Idiots or racist, bad faith actors. They may be able to sink back to their spaces but there will always be a record of their ideology.

If we cancel based on anything smaller than a debate (or larger outing off their ideas) we are potentially banning people that don't deserve it, like how lefties sometime get banned alongside the alt-right.

Debate is only of value when there is something to debate. Debate assumes that both sides are coming from positions of good faith, that they care about the quality of their arguments, and that both positions are legitimate. Fascist and racists, and their positions, are none of those things. There is no winning a debate with a fascist because they do not care about sound reason, facts, good faith, and their position is not legitimate.
 

Pepe Silvia

Member
Jan 9, 2018
12
And hasn't Kanye been confirmed to star in upcoming episodes of Rick and Morty?

Fucking hell.

Yes, indeed.

"I'm giving him an episode, I'm making it official," Harmon said in an interview this month with TheBlast.com. "We have 70, he can have one — Kanye, you can have an episode." Harmon called Kanye a "kindred spirit," and Roiland enthusiastically added, "We f**king love Kanye."
"Come hang out, write a Rick and Morty episode with us," Roiland said. "It'll be the Kanye episode."

All of this... just a few weeks after Kanye said what he said and the all Maga controversy!

I mean **** those men.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
in my eyes, "cancelling" anything remotely affiliated with the ideals of white nationalism is just going to hammer in the idea to these people that whites and white nationalist thoughts are oppressed, which is what a lot of that movement is founded upon. a lot of younger people who get drawn into white nationalism get drawn in because the media and the people around them tell them it's wrong, and they develop a curiosity because kids/younger adults have a tendency to engage with things that could be perceived as taboo or edgy.
and while it's unfair to expect people to have rational and honest conversation with people who are spewing hate at them, i don't think jontron "wanted other races dead", or had some deep seeded racism that cannot be changed. he definitely said racist things but they seemed to be more based on misinterpreted/false information he had seen online rather than outright hatred. obviously i can't know what's going on in his head, but i don't think giving him another chance (which he obviously has gotten based on the views his videos are getting) has resulted in a further spreading of racism or white nationalism. even though he didn't give a great apology he did walk back on the extreme/ blatantly false aspects of what he said and as far as i know hasn't been pushing them again online or in his content.

I know you're banned but I want you to know that deplatforming of Nazism does work. It's important to do it whenever we can.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
"Debate works" and "debate doesn't work" people are both right, because they're saying fundamentally different things.

1) "Debate doesn't work" because, by and large, you're not going to convince a racist to stop being a racist with rational arguments: racism comes from an irrational place untouchable by logic.

2) "Debate works" because it exposes racists as the irrational, logically bankrupt people they are, and when these people have an audience in the millions, this is important. There's an idiom in Spain that's all about this, "darle cuerda para que se ahorque" (lit. "give them rope to hang themselves", where "give them rope" means letting them talk). The more a racist tries to rationally discuss his ideas with non-racist, the worse their public image becomes for everyone but other racists. Leaving them unchallenged allows their audience to assume the best of them, which is actually what's happening with JonTron.

"Debate works" people mostly agree with point 1. "Debate doesn't work" people might disagree with point 2 on fears of giving them exposure and legitimacy, but those are things they already have in the eyes of their followers, and the only way to strip that legitimacy away from them is forcing them to expose their hollow, flawed world views in detail.

There's another discussion that's often brought up in tandem, which is "deplatforming works". I think everyone (except perhaps the most radical defenders of free speech at any cost) would agree with this, but this is kind of an orthogonal discussion to the above. Deplatforming is obviously the ideal solution, and has been proven once and again to work (if you disagree with this, you're either misinformed or a troll, sorry), but for someone to be deplatformed, they have to be unambiguously exposed as a racist. That's where debate can help.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,381
"Debate works" and "debate doesn't work" people are both right, because they're saying fundamentally different things.

1) "Debate doesn't work" because, by and large, you're not going to convince a racist to stop being a racist with rational arguments: racism comes from an irrational place untouchable by logic.

2) "Debate works" because it exposes racists as the irrational, logically bankrupt people they are, and when these people have an audience in the millions, this is important. There's an idiom in Spain that's all about this, "darle cuerda para que se ahorque" (lit. "give them rope to hang themselves", where "give them rope" means letting them talk). The more a racist tries to rationally discuss his ideas with non-racist, the worse their public image becomes for everyone but other racists. Leaving them unchallenged allows their audience to assume the best of them, which is actually what's happening with JonTron.

"Debate works" people mostly agree with point 1. "Debate doesn't work" people might disagree with point 2 on fears of giving them exposure and legitimacy, but those are things they already have in the eyes of their followers, and the only way to strip that legitimacy away from them is forcing them to expose their hollow, flawed world views in detail.

There's another discussion that's often brought up in tandem, which is "deplatforming works". I think everyone (except perhaps the most radical defenders of free speech at any cost) would agree with this, but this is kind of an orthogonal discussion to the above. Deplatforming is obviously the ideal solution, and has been proven once and again to work (if you disagree with this, you're either misinformed or a troll, sorry), but for someone to be deplatformed, they have to be unambiguously exposed as a racist. That's where debate can help.

The same way you're parsing this in a helpful way, I'd like to add some distinctions I think are important between debate and contact/discussion.

I think "debate" in the more public sense has an element of performance that can make it uniquely terrible to actually change a person's mind when it comes to something like this, while also broadening exposure. Combining an intractable debater with the visibility (and credibility) of a "polite" face-off often benefits the slimebag.

That being said, personal appeals to people around us are always important. Matter-of-fact callouts and dismissals of this trash when it crops up is always important. Broader statements on the harm and nature of this stuff is always important. But with so much of the motivation at the "top" of these movements (aside from true believers) being snake-oil salesman who bank on the exposure and theater of that conflict, I always think it's important to be aware of how playing along with their intended "script" can be self-defeating.

That said, I couldn't agree more with your last line. Especially with the situation around JonTron, Destiny did the public a huuuuge service by doing that debate, which unfortunately made crystal clear how completely awful Jon's views on race are, and how deeply rooted they are. Ironically enough, I think Jon took part because he honestly believed it all and meant "well" by having the discussion, and assumed people more generally all believed it.
 

Pepe Silvia

Member
Jan 9, 2018
12
Dan Harmon may have thoughts on Harmontown. I am curious if he says anything.

LOOOOL. Here is an example of the stuff I got to hear on Harmontown related to racism:
Brandon Johnson - "I think people are making a big fuzz about Donald Trump but they should calm down. I mean... look at this new controversy about the announced moving of the american ambassy to Jerusalem, people are freaking out but this stuff takes times. I bet they'll finish that projects in 6 years from now and by then everybody would have forgotten".

5 months later the american ambassy was moved to Jerusalem...

I don't think Dan Harmon is a bad person but him and his crowd definetely talk too much about topics they don't understand. And when I think about his stance on Kanye plus all the bad buzzes the Rick and Morty fandom keeps generating... I identify this group of people as the Reddit of entertainment. A bunch of uneducated 14 years old westerner sharing their hot takes about everything while slowly leaning to the right.... Ugly