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Wolfapo

Member
Dec 27, 2017
536
So yes, it was racist and he shouldn't have done it, but culturally back then it was pretty acceptable and the question is always whether we should judge people for their past actions by our present standards. And that's a more nuanced question than a lot of people give credit for, I think.

That's the most important thing.
Times change and nobody is perfect. Society changes as well.
Just think about what you are doing today, can you already expect something to be offensive in 20 years?

It's always important to see what this person has been done since then.
Consistently racist and policies against minorities? Hell, time to not vote for this guy (if it was ever acceptable).

Everyone does mistakes. And if people apologize and actually don't do this shit anymore, hey, that's great.
If you do a mistake a second time after being called out, then it's a completely different story.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,161
Greater Vancouver
While this is obviously racist by 2019 standards, flashing back to 19 years ago this kind of thing was nowhere near as obviously offensive in the public consciousness as it is now - the cultural conversation hadn't yet got to the place where this seen as completely racist and unacceptable.

I can remember people dressing up as all sorts of outfits at parties that would now be a massive no-no, but this was all treated as a bit of fun at the time because there was a lack of understanding that it's actually offensive. Times literally were different then, we've come a long way!

So it's interesting how politicians react to these revelations - people jumping on Trudeau for political advantage, when they were doubtless at similar gatherings way back when. And Trudeau himself apologising massively and saying he should have known it was massively racist, when culturally in 2000 among white people this would have been nothing and the conversation hadn't moved to a place where he necessarily should have known. He probably thought he was amusingly pushing the envelope of fancy dress, without any racist connotation entering his brain at all.

So yes, it was racist and he shouldn't have done it, but culturally back then it was pretty acceptable and the question is always whether we should judge people for their past actions by our present standards. And that's a more nuanced question than a lot of people give credit for, I think.
It wasn't "acceptable." White people just got away without being called on their shit more. It was still plenty-fucking-racist 19 years ago.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
It wasn't "acceptable." White people just got away without being called on their shit more. It was still plenty-fucking-racist 19 years ago.

It was racist I know it was. I remember finding Golliwogs in my attic when I was little and asked my mom what they were and she said they were a gift many years ago and she thought she threw them out. I asked her why and she said that it was linked to black face and was very racist. That was probably 1986. Maybe there is a greater history to them I don't know, the point is that my mom told me that Black face was bad back in the 80s.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
While this is obviously racist by 2019 standards, flashing back to 19 years ago this kind of thing was nowhere near as obviously offensive in the public consciousness as it is now - the cultural conversation hadn't yet got to the place where this seen as completely racist and unacceptable.

I can remember people dressing up as all sorts of outfits at parties that would now be a massive no-no, but this was all treated as a bit of fun at the time because there was a lack of understanding that it's actually offensive. Times literally were different then, we've come a long way!

So it's interesting how politicians react to these revelations - people jumping on Trudeau for political advantage, when they were doubtless at similar gatherings way back when. And Trudeau himself apologising massively and saying he should have known it was massively racist, when culturally in 2000 among white people this would have been nothing and the conversation hadn't moved to a place where he necessarily should have known. He probably thought he was amusingly pushing the envelope of fancy dress, without any racist connotation entering his brain at all.

So yes, it was racist and he shouldn't have done it, but culturally back then it was pretty acceptable and the question is always whether we should judge people for their past actions by our present standards. And that's a more nuanced question than a lot of people give credit for, I think.
There's no nuance to the question.. It was offensive back in 1901. The fact that you and your peers were ignorant and disrespectful about it is no excuse.

None of y'all would have dared played dress up like this around majority Black and Brown folks so the excuses don't fly. Trudeau would have gotten properly juxxed back in '01 looking like that. He's a clown.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
So he said he didn't know it was offensive, so according to him in the year 2001 black face was common comedy LMAO
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
If you can present an option that doesn't divide the voting block in a way that opens the way for Conservatives who have active policies to hurt minority groups, believe me, I would love to hear it.
I don't, but proposing to vote for a fuck face that did blackface doesn't give you any morale vantage point

particularly because once elected he will not be removed and we both know that
So he said he didn't know it was offensive, so according to him in the year 2001 black face was common comedy LMAO

Yep, black and white photo, at the time no civil rights you know...

He had only 29 YEARS OLD POOR GUY
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
Fucking no, stop being hypocrites for once.

Fuck him and his face

Electing a racist just to not let other racist get the power it's still fucking racist
Let's go down this route: you decide to screw over the election because of principle knowing that an incredibly racist and damaging party would win, would you not be enabling racism? You know what your choices lead to. You know the damage it causes. You are part of that responsibility now.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
Question, are you American or Canadian?

Just curious about context. As with our history vs yours, while blackface is a very bad look and awful history - it's a different history than the US where it was a lot more significant. What would be bad to our history is if he was wearing a First Nations tribal head dress in a satirical/mocking way. But most Americans wouldn't bat an eye at "Cowboys and Indian" costumes, but that would be a very bad look for a Canadian leader imo. So cultural context from the country you're in is important.

Like this article:


Serious question, who is this for? No one is dumb enough to believe in this absurd notion that Canada is completely culturally distinct from the country below us. Trying present this vast divide between how indigenous people in America and Canada are treated, or that minstrel shows didn't exist in Canada is insulting to everyone's intelligence.

Even if you did somehow buy that, Justin isn't some country bumpkin that's never seen or heard of a non-white person before. The idea you're presenting where he wouldn't have been aware of how awful this is to do makes me honestly question if you know that he isn't the first Trudeau to be PM.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
Let's go down this route: you decide to screw over the election because of principle knowing that an incredibly racist and damaging party would win, would you not be enabling racism? You know what your choices lead to. You know the damage it causes. You are part of that responsibility now.
If his party it's going to loose without his face, then sorry to tell you, but he has already lost with that photo.

Many will not vote for him anyway
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,161
Greater Vancouver
I don't, but proposing to vote for a fuck face that did blackface doesn't give you any morale vantage point

particularly because once elected he will not be removed and we both know that


Yep, black and white photo, at the time no civil rights you know...

He had only 29 YEARS OLD POOR GUY
So you have no solutions? Because, hi, Pakistani-Canadian guy here... I am not fucking happy about this. I am not happy about the lack of accountability. I am not happy about his already-broken promises.

I also know there is no fucking alternative by the way our system is structured, and the risk a Conservative government poses. Because as most minority groups, poor people, and immigrant families should know, there is a lot more at fucking stake for us than for some white kids protest-voting for NDP in key ridings.
 

Evo Shandor

Member
Oct 29, 2017
479

If he wins a majority, he won't step down. C'mon. He is going to get away with this, the SNC Lavalin scandal, and being a dick to Indigenous protesters ("Thank you for your donation.").

Last time I checked, Justin Trudeau has been Prime Minister for almost five years with a large majority mandate. There a number of things he could have changed without the consultation of other parties. The onus and responsibility falls on him and his office.

I've had several friends who are racialized minorities talk to me about this and they are all so disgusted at the whole situation. There is a leader of the country, doing brownface, and who is the absolute picture of privilege. My friends are having conversations with other white 'progressive' friends telling them that it's really not a big deal, that culturally it is not the same as the United States, and that they can't vote for a party lead by a person who is a racialized minority because we, as Canadians, need to vote for the guy who has done brownface to make sure minorites keep their rights. Why would they get involved? The system has been very clearly rigged to benefit Trudeau and people like him. Where is there room for them in political discourse to be involved as anything other than continuing to empower Trudeau, or be insinuated to be traitors to other minorities by supporting someone else?

But this reasoning will continue. Despite his flaws and that he does not deserve to win, Trudeau will win. And he will not step down.

So can we at least be adults and acknowledge how shitty this is, how shitty the entire political discourse is, and that it has been set up to reward a person who should realistically not be our PM? Can we stop handwaiving the brownface and other questionable decisions?
 

LookAtMeGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,136
a parallel universe
Fucking no, stop being hypocrites for once.

Fuck him and his face

Electing a racist just to not let other racist get the power it's still fucking racist
I remember Hilary saying some racist shit. If that swayed people from not voting for her and you ended up with Trump because of it, would that have been a mistake to do so? Unfortunately a LOT, if not all white people have said and done some racist shit in the past. Doesnt make it OK. But to give a vote to someone else over this could potentially give the election away to a party that will do a lot more harm to minorities in Canada then what bullshit some fuckwit pulled at a party back in 2001 did. Hold him accountable, call him out but dont blow an election and fuck the whole country up over it. What this moron did if inexcusable but right now isnt the time to fuck around.
 

Solaris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,282
What is he supposed to do here?

He's apologised, he has a progressive track record and, shock horror, people can change in 20 years.
 

Wolfapo

Member
Dec 27, 2017
536
Let's go down this route: you decide to screw over the election because of principle knowing that an incredibly racist and damaging party would win, would you not be enabling racism? You know what your choices lead to. You know the damage it causes. You are part of that responsibility now.
It's funny, because that's how right-wing people can now hide and don't be called racists.
But actually, the action of not voting might be more racist. It's just that you can push the blame away from yourself since you can say: I did not vote for the guy who did a racist thing 20 years ago, but you did any thus you are racist.
In the meantime, a far worse party might get elected and actually push policies through that are against minorities.

Honestly. I'd rather be called racist on a forum but have proper policies in place protecting minorities.
 

Dr Funk PhD

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
73
Yeah... I get why people are upset about this but as a minority I'm 100% ABC. Racially insensitive as it is I'm just not gonna fuck over my position and the position of my family cause of an old photo. Politics is the art of the possible and a possible conservative government is a horrible scenario.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
If you can present an option that doesn't divide the voting block in a way that opens the way for Conservatives who have active policies to hurt minority groups, believe me, I would love to hear it.

This is a dangerous game. Defending him and still backing him as a party will damage it long term and we still might lose the election. If the party still has to push him in this coming election then you will probably find that future racist acts committed by conservatives will suffer fewer attacks by Liberals as they take a more passive approach for fear that their support for Trudeau be thrown back in their faces. This is a very difficult situation and is much more complicated than "don't divide the voter base." This is now a matter of integrity.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,161
Greater Vancouver
This is a dangerous game. Defending him and still backing him as a party will damage it long term and we still might lose the election. If the party still has to push him in this coming election then you will probably find that future racist acts committed by conservatives will suffer fewer attacks by Liberals as they take a more passive approach for fear that their support for Trudeau be thrown back in their faces. This is a very difficult situation and is much more complicated than "don't divide the voter base." This is now a matter of integrity.
Point to me defending him.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
The Liberal party probably could swap him out with a number of people in their caucus without taking a hit.
 

ioriyagami

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,364
I think judging people by what they did almost 20 years ago is not fair, whoever they are. 20 years is enough time for anyone to change drastically, for better or for worse..

(Unless what hey did was illegal and they have not paid their debt with society yet, of course)
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
If he wins a majority, he won't step down. C'mon. He is going to get away with this, the SNC Lavalin scandal, and being a dick to Indigenous protesters ("Thank you for your donation.").

Last time I checked, Justin Trudeau has been Prime Minister for almost five years with a large majority mandate. There a number of things he could have changed without the consultation of other parties. The onus and responsibility falls on him and his office.

I've had several friends who are racialized minorities talk to me about this and they are all so disgusted at the whole situation. There is a leader of the country, doing brownface, and who is the absolute picture of privilege. My friends are having conversations with other white 'progressive' friends telling them that it's really not a big deal, that culturally it is not the same as the United States, and that they can't vote for a party lead by a person who is a racialized minority because we, as Canadians, need to vote for the guy who has done brownface to make sure minorites keep their rights. Why would they get involved? The system has been very clearly rigged to benefit Trudeau and people like him. Where is there room for them in political discourse to be involved as anything other than continuing to empower Trudeau, or be insinuated to be traitors to other minorities by supporting someone else?

But this reasoning will continue. Despite his flaws and that he does not deserve to win, Trudeau will win. And he will not step down.

So can we at least be adults and acknowledge how shitty this is, how shitty the entire political discourse is, and that it has been set up to reward a person who should realistically not be our PM? Can we stop handwaiving the brownface and other questionable decisions?
Not getting involved leads to the worst case scenario. People NEED to know this. They NEED to know that splitting the left vote will cause a Conservative government. If folks want to split the vote and have the conservatives get majority because of this then they can. They just need to live with the outcome and they need to be quiet for the rest of the term. This is what they will allow because the conservatives have not been subtle about what they will do to Canada if they win.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
I'm voting for the liberal in my riding. I'm disappointed in Trudeau and I hope that his apology was sincere, but after these elections, if he loses he steps down if he wins he does what he needs to do and for the next elections someone else leads the party to get away from the scandal.

The cons won't let this go and instead of policy they will talk about this until next month. I don't actually know how this is going to affect the outcome, but we'll see.
 

dapperbandit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,162
He knew this picture was out there and he knew how in recent years it's become increasingly unacceptable.

He was counting on nobody finding it and now he's like "fuck better say sorry so this goes away"
 

Maquiladora

Member
Nov 16, 2017
5,080
I refuse to believe that a near 30 year old man, an educated son of a prime minister, would not know that this was extremely racist.

I don't give a fuck if it was 20 years ago or 20 minutes ago. He is a piece of shit and has to go.

As for his apology? We are only hearing that because we found out about this. "Sorry for getting caught being a racist." Fuck that shit. Heard it all too many times.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
I dont think it will.

I don't know how it couldn't. We are giving him a pass because he apologized, which is of course what he would do, and from here on out we will all be expected to accept that for future people that are exposed and apologize because otherwise we are hypocrites.

He was 29 and has done it before with a Harry Belafonte impersonation which hasn't even come out yet but is being reported on. I think continuing to have him as leader will become political fodder for a very long time. Ousting him would show actual strength and is something they could brag about for many years. Supporting him still as a party will haunt them I guarantee it.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
I don't know how it couldn't. We are giving him a pass because he apologized, which is of course what he would do, and from here on out we will all be expected to accept that for future people that are exposed and apologize because otherwise we are hypocrites.

He was 29 and has done it before with a Harry Belafonte impersonation which hasn't even come out yet but is being reported on. I think continuing to have him as leader will become political fodder for a very long time. Ousting him would show actual strength and is something they could brag about for many years. Supporting him still as a party will haunt them I guarantee it.
It'll only haunt them if people believe conservative rhetoric. The goal is to win the election.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I don't know how it couldn't. We are giving him a pass because he apologized, which is of course what he would do, and from here on out we will all be expected to accept that for future people that are exposed and apologize because otherwise we are hypocrites.

He was 29 and has done it before with a Harry Belafonte impersonation which hasn't even come out yet but is being reported on. I think continuing to have him as leader will become political fodder for a very long time. Ousting him would show actual strength and is something they could brag about for many years. Supporting him still as a party will haunt them I guarantee it.
idk. I recall everyone being on the same page when it was revealed that the governor of Virginia did this in 1984. of course he didn't step down either.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,904
I refuse to believe that a near 30 year old man, an educated son of a prime minister, would not know that this was extremely racist.

I don't give a fuck if it was 20 years ago or 20 minutes ago. He is a piece of shit and has to go.

As for his apology? We are only hearing that because we found out about this. "Sorry for getting caught being a racist." Fuck that shit. Heard it all too many times.

You'd be surprised.

Wealthy, white people who are raised in private, pampered their whole childhoods and never really experience any sort of societal prejudice or racism can be incredibly blind and tone deaf.

Justin has apparently grown up, thankfully. But this is just another example of how jaded and indifferent people of his background are about the realities and ignorance of the world.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
It'll only haunt them if people believe conservative rhetoric. The goal is to win the election.

This is so trite. I don't need conservative rhetoric to tell me that a Liberal party supporting a leader with a racist past is bad for business. "But he changed" Ya he changed alright, when he found politics to be his calling.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
This is so trite. I don't need conservative rhetoric to tell me that a Liberal party supporting a leader with a racist past is bad for business. "But he changed" Ya he changed alright, when he found politics to be his calling.
I just hope you will do what is right to forward progress in Canada.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
I just hope you will do what is right to forward progress in Canada.

Just stop. I'll be voting liberal but he's a piece of shit and I think that replacing him would be a much bigger win than a loss. All I have is my integrity on these issues. I am capable of pragmatism but I actually think them keeping a person with a racist past as leader is not the pragmatic choice it's just a convenient one.
 

LookAtMeGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,136
a parallel universe
Just stop. I'll be voting liberal but he's a piece of shit and I think that replacing him would be a much bigger win than a loss. All I have is my integrity on these issues. I am capable of pragmatism but I actually think them keeping a person with a racist past as leader is not the pragmatic choice it's just a convenient one.
I respect your stance on the situation. But I truly believe that trying to pull him out so close to an election will look like weakness to the masses. It's too risky to try and pull that. It's something that if it's going to happen, it needs to happen after the election.

The man has a massive fan following and that mob will get him the election. Taking him out will anger his fan base and turn a lot of people who adore him effectively splitting the vote.
 

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
Banned
Feb 25, 2018
8,536
If you can present an option that doesn't divide the voting block in a way that opens the way for Conservatives who have active policies to hurt minority groups, believe me, I would love to hear it.

Electing conservatives to own Trudeau.

Seriously, it was a shitty thing to do, but I judge him by his policies and what he is doing NOW. After 5 years of him as the head of state I don't see racism in his policies and actions since he is prime minister.

His party still represent the best option to keep a party which will ENACT POLICIES that will push us backwards on minority rights, women rights, and the fight against climate change.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
A Scheer government literally represents an existential threat. To people of colour, to the younger generation, to the whole planet. Conservatism is in all-out open war against climate science and it puts every human life at risk. What Trudeau did was absolutely racist, unacceptable, and I need for him to do right by marginalized people, but I am absofuckinglutely not going to throw away the future of our planet so that I can maintain my moral purity.

Luckily, I live in an NDP stronghold and can vote for a progressive candidate without a horrible taste in my mouth.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,831
I respect your stance on the situation. But I truly believe that trying to pull him out so close to an election will look like weakness to the masses. It's too risky to try and pull that. It's something that if it's going to happen, it needs to happen after the election.

I disagree. I think it's bold, brave and would elevate the party.