I : There are lot of orphans in Naruto. Are you interested in that character archetype ?
Kishi : I had the chance to grow in a happy family with my parents. But I had the opportunity to watch closely what loneliness can do to a person with a few of my old friends being orphans. There was this friend who was older than me and I got along with him pretty well. As time went on and we grew closer, I could see his frustration of being orphan.
Nobody gave him the newest toy and there was nobody giving him presents either. This person left quite a impact on me, and I remember when I used to feel sorry for him, he told me that parents can be a source of problems and conflicts. This was maybe true, but I felt this answer was some sort of pride or provocation to me. I don't know why, but as a kid, I was very curious and sensitive about family problems.
I remember listening carefully to my friends' stories about how their parents divorced and how they were living with their mothers. They were entrusting their problems to me and I tried to give them advice as best as I could. At the same time, I grew conscious of their problems and psychological states.
Thus, when the time came I went to tell a story about ninjas, I remembered those little villages from Nara ... like Iga or Kouga, where one could really learn to be a spy. Death was something that was acknowledged early on in such a career and children in training knew they wouldn't get to know their parents for very long. Once I decided that Naruto and his friends were going to be orphans, the memories of my childhood friends ( And especially this older friend ) came back to me and everything that came with that. I knew what I was going to tell and I dove into my childhood memories to create the multiple characters of Naruto. I had so much to tell.
I : By the way, relations by blood, real families ... when they exists in Naruto are always dysfunctional. Like the only family that matters are the ninjas, this gigantic community. Where did this idea came from ?
Kishi : Not limitating families by their blood relations seemed mandatory to me. The most obvious example of this is the relation between Naruto & Jiraiya. These two lonely beings, an hermit and an orphan, made the master/student relation works very well. It's very family like. The word "family" as most people understand it is too limited as far as I'm concerned.
Especially since I'm writing for children who may or may not face the problem of parents divorcing. This conception of families comes from the region I grew up in, where peoples used to get together in groups called "Kumis" ( Clans or Groups in japanese. ) The custom was that you have to treat each member of the community like your own family. At home, the clan was called "Kou-Gumi". And we used to gather in groups of 8 or 10 to gather wood to prepare the baths, others would cultivate rice and those who finish early would help the others.
Members of clans would gather each month to eat together and at funerals they were on the first seats. If one of the family would invite the priest to eat after the funeral ceremony, the others members of the clan were invited at the dinner too. The way the clan worked was like a real family, so this is why this "Kumi" system left such an impact on me. My village, in a way, worked like the communities created by the ninjas of old.
Thus this experience influenced me when I created the ninja village system in Naruto. From the start, the ninjas were supposed to be one big family
I : In the end, Naruto & Sasuke are two faces of the same problem : They're orphans. But they cope in completely different ways.
Kishi : This was deliberate of me that those two characters would oppose each other by how they think. The difference is that Naruto is orphan by birth, but Sasuke still has his parents. Sasuke suffers from their presence before discovering, when they die, that he suffers much more because of their disappearance. And it is there that the opposition with Naruto increases for the first time: Sasuke criticizes the latter for his inability to understand the pain of mourning, because Naruto has never known filial love.
And in truth, Naruto really doesn't get it. Naruto will eventually form a close master/student bond with Jiraiya. Jiraiya gives attention, teaching and care to Naruto, a bit like a foster father.
A foster father that Naruto will grow to like and who will eventually be killed by Pain. At this point Naruto understand what a family can feel like and starts to understand what Sasuke could feel. But this experience comes too late and he doesn't get the chance to talk about it with Sasuke.
Their reaction to losing close ones makes them even more different. Sasuke let himself be controlled by hatred. A hatred as strong as the love he used to feel. But for Naruto, the loss comes with a self reflection about revenge, pain and how personality and actions can evolve based on that. After seeing what revenge did to Sasuke, Naruto shows an enormous amount of self restrain and he feels he must learn to control himself to not become like this.
That's his true performance as the hero: He survives pain & loss without abandoning himself to vengeance and hatred, realising the difference between self interest and public interest.
I continued to play with this opposition so it could grow step by step. I wanted to take the reader by surprise. Naruto, at first, seems very emotional and instinctive and Sasuke is the one who seems cold & emotionless. But as time goes on, the roles are reversed. Emotions and logic aren't always obvious at first.
To be frank, the reality is more complex. I feel closer to Sasuke as I would never be able to forget or forgive the one who murders my family. I can see myself in the way Sasuke reacts but reacting like him lead to an overwhelming amount of hatred and violence and to war. History repeats itself and the circle must be broken.
This manga talks a lot about not repeating the errors of the past. And to be completely honest, overcoming traumatic experiences like Naruto does seems a bit idealist and naive to me. Even though, this kind of utopic idealism has to be written and defended in Shounen mangas. Shounen mangas must carry hope ,above all.
I : More often than not, the children falls victims to their parents plot but they don't object and are kind of submissive in that aspect. Especially Naruto himself. Did you realized this and can you explain behind your desire to show Naruto's optimism, his childhood bullied by society.
Kishi : I was a very obedient kid and never contested the authority of adults, my parents or even my teachers. Their words were truth to me and I never asked myself questions. Very naturally, this part of me went into my characters. Most of the kids I knew were like me and those who were more Independent, more free or more "Punk" I should say never really left an impact on me. I didn't feel like putting them in my story.
By instinct, I naturally puts "good kids" in my stories. When capitalism came into Japan, after the war, it led to a very comfortable time for my generation. That's why the least I could do was to thank them and obey as a sign of gratitude.
I was scared of my parents and the society of course, but I never had particular frustration of any kind. I silently noted the contradictions of the adults speeches and just didn't voice my opinion. In my mangas, of course, I voice my opinion. I voice my opinion more clearly, more freely since I write the story of the world I create. That's a bit cowardly, maybe ( laugh. ) I won't say I'm an anarchist, I'm a rather obedient person outside of my stories.
I : The world of Naruto is always attacked by various threats, first policics. But bit by bit, you reveal that the hatred the enemies feel is just a mask, a mask to hide childhood trauma, psyche wounds and personal scars that time changed into some crazy project.
Kishi : In the first chapters of Naruto, I already talk about power struggles, politics and the main projects of the main Trio. But what interest me isn't the end goal, but how they came to have that goal in the first place. How did they came to act like they do ? I really dig this psychological process. I think the reader is like me: He wants to understand. So I talk about the place the characters grow up, the reasoning behind their acts. I try to make the reader feel empathy for a character who seems evil at first sight.
Because that's the thing. In most of the shounen mangas, the enemy is the ultimate evil. He can't be reasoned with. But countless mangas do that already and I didn't want Naruto to be just a repeat of other stories.
So rather than focusing on the enemy's powers and actions, I would rather tell his birth, and how he turned into a monster. The motivations of those characters are often rather simple, It's always personal, like childhood problems or traumatic experiences that makes the reader identify to the character and feel empathy to him.
I always try to give some hints about their past here and there so the characters aren't too simple. I progress step by step to make sure the reader can identify to the character slowly and progressively. I make sure to create characters that feels different from each other, and different from the other jump mangas.
I : Talking about differences, one of best thing of Naruto is your work on the character's designs. You didn't use any medieval japan and military stereotypes. You work on the clothes, you're aware about fashion and what's popular. Where do these influences come from ?
Kishi : The animators of the animated series Naruto often praise me for my designs, because on how crazy they are, which makes my job even more difficult. Personally, I'm not really aware if it's good or not. It may seems obvious, but I wanted to distance myself away from the cliche ninja dressed in black on purpose.
I didn't see any point in using an image that has been used countless time already. So I took the opposite direction. A little blond guy with a jumpsuit, and not even japanese. I wanted my character to be stateless, like Akira Toriyama's characters. That was the basic idea.
Then there are some particularities based on my personal obsessions, like zippers.
I found it funny to use anachronism in this medieval like setting, like the sandals. I love drawing toes and feet. I must be a fetishist of toes and fingers. Okay, that came out weird, I admit.
About the basic designs, I used to read some fashion magazines and took inspirations from some fashion design I like so I could custom them into my characters.
But I eventually stopped putting too much details, the designs were getting to complicated for a weekly manga.
I : You mentioned Akira Toriyama. With Katsuhiro Otomo, he's one of your biggest inspiration. You were influenced a lot by their styles and even today you have difficulties distancing yourself from their styles. Today, as a professional, how would you describe Otomo & Toriyama's styles, in technical terms. And what is left of their work today ?
Kishi : Otomo and Toriyama impressed me the moment I discovered their mangas, when I was a teen. Akira Toriyama forever changed shounen mangas with his "pop"ish designs. I drew a lot from Dragon Ball to create Naruto. An initiatory journey, the character gets older, he faces incredible difficulties that can't be overcome at first and he must overcome those trials with incredible efforts and a story divived in two main parts.
Toriyama's style still impress me to this day, and as a kid as spent a lot of time analyzing his style. The bodies aren't realistic, they're disproportionate and sometimes simplified to the extreme. This could be just mere awkwardness or clumsiness, but it's not. Everything is mastered and has a purpose.
He's trying to create an effect : either comical or dramatic. And the way he draws his backgrounds shows how much Toriyama is a master : The proportions and perspectives are on point and detailed. There is contrast between his characters and backgrounds that I really like but can't really master myself. Toriyama is a master of graphical effects.
I love how easily readable his panels are. He draws his panels a little more "dezoomed" than usual so more of the action could be seen. Those panels shows how much the direction, following the action, and the interaction with the background is mastered : Each character is at the right place, no contradictions. It's even more obvious in real actions sequences, where the fighting, the actions chain up with each other perfectly and it's made all very clear for the reader to understand. I'm often told that mangas are sometimes hard to read.
But Toriyama's skill in dividing the action and making it easy to read is unmatched. And he uses this skill with a lot of different angles, like the high-angle shot which he's excellent at.
Otomo is an incredible master too. He pushed his esthetic sense in a completely personal direction. He takes care of every single detail, even if he knows the reader won't probably notice it. I love that with him. His works really left a impression on me, like Domu or Akira.
For me, the themes of his designs aren't obvious but are more commonly explored by his characters. Akira will never be surpassed as far as I'm concerned. Otomo was inspired by Moebius and as far as art goes, he's in a completely other league compared to me. I'm no match and this can't be debated. And I'm not even talking about his skill in panels creation, rythm and angles. The focus always changes and he can apply deformations to each of his angles with a insulting precision. His deformed angles, like in Fisheye are just perfect and they're aren't just gratuitous.
They exist to make the character express himself. It's like Otomo has a digital camera in his brain, it's very rare in mangas. He's the only one in japan, with Tayio Matsumoto, who can do this. It's not coincidence both were influenced by european comic books, and Moebius especially. Otomo is the first one who I really felt removed the barrier between mangas and cinema. Domu was like a reading a movie, and I never realized you could do that before reading it.
I : When it comes to the ending of a story such as Naruto, how do you decide to end it?
Kishi : As far as I'm concerned, Naruto can't exist without Sasuke, his opposite. Like with complementary colors, they can't exist without each other. Naruto want to be acknowledged and Sasuke doesn't acknowledge anyone but himself. If they manage to sort out their problems, their bonds will likely come to a close and this story won't have any reason to continue. That was what I had in mind with Naruto handing back Sasuke's headband to him at the ending of the manga.
Link to interview:
www.kana.fr
Kishi : I had the chance to grow in a happy family with my parents. But I had the opportunity to watch closely what loneliness can do to a person with a few of my old friends being orphans. There was this friend who was older than me and I got along with him pretty well. As time went on and we grew closer, I could see his frustration of being orphan.
Nobody gave him the newest toy and there was nobody giving him presents either. This person left quite a impact on me, and I remember when I used to feel sorry for him, he told me that parents can be a source of problems and conflicts. This was maybe true, but I felt this answer was some sort of pride or provocation to me. I don't know why, but as a kid, I was very curious and sensitive about family problems.
I remember listening carefully to my friends' stories about how their parents divorced and how they were living with their mothers. They were entrusting their problems to me and I tried to give them advice as best as I could. At the same time, I grew conscious of their problems and psychological states.
Thus, when the time came I went to tell a story about ninjas, I remembered those little villages from Nara ... like Iga or Kouga, where one could really learn to be a spy. Death was something that was acknowledged early on in such a career and children in training knew they wouldn't get to know their parents for very long. Once I decided that Naruto and his friends were going to be orphans, the memories of my childhood friends ( And especially this older friend ) came back to me and everything that came with that. I knew what I was going to tell and I dove into my childhood memories to create the multiple characters of Naruto. I had so much to tell.
I : By the way, relations by blood, real families ... when they exists in Naruto are always dysfunctional. Like the only family that matters are the ninjas, this gigantic community. Where did this idea came from ?
Kishi : Not limitating families by their blood relations seemed mandatory to me. The most obvious example of this is the relation between Naruto & Jiraiya. These two lonely beings, an hermit and an orphan, made the master/student relation works very well. It's very family like. The word "family" as most people understand it is too limited as far as I'm concerned.
Especially since I'm writing for children who may or may not face the problem of parents divorcing. This conception of families comes from the region I grew up in, where peoples used to get together in groups called "Kumis" ( Clans or Groups in japanese. ) The custom was that you have to treat each member of the community like your own family. At home, the clan was called "Kou-Gumi". And we used to gather in groups of 8 or 10 to gather wood to prepare the baths, others would cultivate rice and those who finish early would help the others.
Members of clans would gather each month to eat together and at funerals they were on the first seats. If one of the family would invite the priest to eat after the funeral ceremony, the others members of the clan were invited at the dinner too. The way the clan worked was like a real family, so this is why this "Kumi" system left such an impact on me. My village, in a way, worked like the communities created by the ninjas of old.
Thus this experience influenced me when I created the ninja village system in Naruto. From the start, the ninjas were supposed to be one big family
I : In the end, Naruto & Sasuke are two faces of the same problem : They're orphans. But they cope in completely different ways.
Kishi : This was deliberate of me that those two characters would oppose each other by how they think. The difference is that Naruto is orphan by birth, but Sasuke still has his parents. Sasuke suffers from their presence before discovering, when they die, that he suffers much more because of their disappearance. And it is there that the opposition with Naruto increases for the first time: Sasuke criticizes the latter for his inability to understand the pain of mourning, because Naruto has never known filial love.
And in truth, Naruto really doesn't get it. Naruto will eventually form a close master/student bond with Jiraiya. Jiraiya gives attention, teaching and care to Naruto, a bit like a foster father.
A foster father that Naruto will grow to like and who will eventually be killed by Pain. At this point Naruto understand what a family can feel like and starts to understand what Sasuke could feel. But this experience comes too late and he doesn't get the chance to talk about it with Sasuke.
Their reaction to losing close ones makes them even more different. Sasuke let himself be controlled by hatred. A hatred as strong as the love he used to feel. But for Naruto, the loss comes with a self reflection about revenge, pain and how personality and actions can evolve based on that. After seeing what revenge did to Sasuke, Naruto shows an enormous amount of self restrain and he feels he must learn to control himself to not become like this.
That's his true performance as the hero: He survives pain & loss without abandoning himself to vengeance and hatred, realising the difference between self interest and public interest.
I continued to play with this opposition so it could grow step by step. I wanted to take the reader by surprise. Naruto, at first, seems very emotional and instinctive and Sasuke is the one who seems cold & emotionless. But as time goes on, the roles are reversed. Emotions and logic aren't always obvious at first.
To be frank, the reality is more complex. I feel closer to Sasuke as I would never be able to forget or forgive the one who murders my family. I can see myself in the way Sasuke reacts but reacting like him lead to an overwhelming amount of hatred and violence and to war. History repeats itself and the circle must be broken.
This manga talks a lot about not repeating the errors of the past. And to be completely honest, overcoming traumatic experiences like Naruto does seems a bit idealist and naive to me. Even though, this kind of utopic idealism has to be written and defended in Shounen mangas. Shounen mangas must carry hope ,above all.
I : More often than not, the children falls victims to their parents plot but they don't object and are kind of submissive in that aspect. Especially Naruto himself. Did you realized this and can you explain behind your desire to show Naruto's optimism, his childhood bullied by society.
Kishi : I was a very obedient kid and never contested the authority of adults, my parents or even my teachers. Their words were truth to me and I never asked myself questions. Very naturally, this part of me went into my characters. Most of the kids I knew were like me and those who were more Independent, more free or more "Punk" I should say never really left an impact on me. I didn't feel like putting them in my story.
By instinct, I naturally puts "good kids" in my stories. When capitalism came into Japan, after the war, it led to a very comfortable time for my generation. That's why the least I could do was to thank them and obey as a sign of gratitude.
I was scared of my parents and the society of course, but I never had particular frustration of any kind. I silently noted the contradictions of the adults speeches and just didn't voice my opinion. In my mangas, of course, I voice my opinion. I voice my opinion more clearly, more freely since I write the story of the world I create. That's a bit cowardly, maybe ( laugh. ) I won't say I'm an anarchist, I'm a rather obedient person outside of my stories.
I : The world of Naruto is always attacked by various threats, first policics. But bit by bit, you reveal that the hatred the enemies feel is just a mask, a mask to hide childhood trauma, psyche wounds and personal scars that time changed into some crazy project.
Kishi : In the first chapters of Naruto, I already talk about power struggles, politics and the main projects of the main Trio. But what interest me isn't the end goal, but how they came to have that goal in the first place. How did they came to act like they do ? I really dig this psychological process. I think the reader is like me: He wants to understand. So I talk about the place the characters grow up, the reasoning behind their acts. I try to make the reader feel empathy for a character who seems evil at first sight.
Because that's the thing. In most of the shounen mangas, the enemy is the ultimate evil. He can't be reasoned with. But countless mangas do that already and I didn't want Naruto to be just a repeat of other stories.
So rather than focusing on the enemy's powers and actions, I would rather tell his birth, and how he turned into a monster. The motivations of those characters are often rather simple, It's always personal, like childhood problems or traumatic experiences that makes the reader identify to the character and feel empathy to him.
I always try to give some hints about their past here and there so the characters aren't too simple. I progress step by step to make sure the reader can identify to the character slowly and progressively. I make sure to create characters that feels different from each other, and different from the other jump mangas.
I : Talking about differences, one of best thing of Naruto is your work on the character's designs. You didn't use any medieval japan and military stereotypes. You work on the clothes, you're aware about fashion and what's popular. Where do these influences come from ?
Kishi : The animators of the animated series Naruto often praise me for my designs, because on how crazy they are, which makes my job even more difficult. Personally, I'm not really aware if it's good or not. It may seems obvious, but I wanted to distance myself away from the cliche ninja dressed in black on purpose.
I didn't see any point in using an image that has been used countless time already. So I took the opposite direction. A little blond guy with a jumpsuit, and not even japanese. I wanted my character to be stateless, like Akira Toriyama's characters. That was the basic idea.
Then there are some particularities based on my personal obsessions, like zippers.
I found it funny to use anachronism in this medieval like setting, like the sandals. I love drawing toes and feet. I must be a fetishist of toes and fingers. Okay, that came out weird, I admit.
About the basic designs, I used to read some fashion magazines and took inspirations from some fashion design I like so I could custom them into my characters.
But I eventually stopped putting too much details, the designs were getting to complicated for a weekly manga.
I : You mentioned Akira Toriyama. With Katsuhiro Otomo, he's one of your biggest inspiration. You were influenced a lot by their styles and even today you have difficulties distancing yourself from their styles. Today, as a professional, how would you describe Otomo & Toriyama's styles, in technical terms. And what is left of their work today ?
Kishi : Otomo and Toriyama impressed me the moment I discovered their mangas, when I was a teen. Akira Toriyama forever changed shounen mangas with his "pop"ish designs. I drew a lot from Dragon Ball to create Naruto. An initiatory journey, the character gets older, he faces incredible difficulties that can't be overcome at first and he must overcome those trials with incredible efforts and a story divived in two main parts.
Toriyama's style still impress me to this day, and as a kid as spent a lot of time analyzing his style. The bodies aren't realistic, they're disproportionate and sometimes simplified to the extreme. This could be just mere awkwardness or clumsiness, but it's not. Everything is mastered and has a purpose.
He's trying to create an effect : either comical or dramatic. And the way he draws his backgrounds shows how much Toriyama is a master : The proportions and perspectives are on point and detailed. There is contrast between his characters and backgrounds that I really like but can't really master myself. Toriyama is a master of graphical effects.
I love how easily readable his panels are. He draws his panels a little more "dezoomed" than usual so more of the action could be seen. Those panels shows how much the direction, following the action, and the interaction with the background is mastered : Each character is at the right place, no contradictions. It's even more obvious in real actions sequences, where the fighting, the actions chain up with each other perfectly and it's made all very clear for the reader to understand. I'm often told that mangas are sometimes hard to read.
But Toriyama's skill in dividing the action and making it easy to read is unmatched. And he uses this skill with a lot of different angles, like the high-angle shot which he's excellent at.
Otomo is an incredible master too. He pushed his esthetic sense in a completely personal direction. He takes care of every single detail, even if he knows the reader won't probably notice it. I love that with him. His works really left a impression on me, like Domu or Akira.
For me, the themes of his designs aren't obvious but are more commonly explored by his characters. Akira will never be surpassed as far as I'm concerned. Otomo was inspired by Moebius and as far as art goes, he's in a completely other league compared to me. I'm no match and this can't be debated. And I'm not even talking about his skill in panels creation, rythm and angles. The focus always changes and he can apply deformations to each of his angles with a insulting precision. His deformed angles, like in Fisheye are just perfect and they're aren't just gratuitous.
They exist to make the character express himself. It's like Otomo has a digital camera in his brain, it's very rare in mangas. He's the only one in japan, with Tayio Matsumoto, who can do this. It's not coincidence both were influenced by european comic books, and Moebius especially. Otomo is the first one who I really felt removed the barrier between mangas and cinema. Domu was like a reading a movie, and I never realized you could do that before reading it.
I : When it comes to the ending of a story such as Naruto, how do you decide to end it?
Kishi : As far as I'm concerned, Naruto can't exist without Sasuke, his opposite. Like with complementary colors, they can't exist without each other. Naruto want to be acknowledged and Sasuke doesn't acknowledge anyone but himself. If they manage to sort out their problems, their bonds will likely come to a close and this story won't have any reason to continue. That was what I had in mind with Naruto handing back Sasuke's headband to him at the ending of the manga.
Link to interview:
L’Interview de Masashi Kishimoto – Kaboom | Kana
www.kana.fr
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