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Kevin Feige Just Did a Reddit AmA

Oct 27, 2017
14,748
I don't think you know what character arc means. We even?
No, but now it seems you don't know what either means. Whatever the screenwriters or Whedon had to say about the hammer has no bearing on the audience's interpretation of a scene, only the text of the film mattera. The author is dead. Otherwise, Deckard would be a Replicant because Ridley Scott says so.

My reading of the hammer scene is a perfectly valid interpretation based on the text of the film alone and thus not "fan fiction."
 
Nov 2, 2017
4,154
No, but now it seems you don't know what either means. Whatever the screenwriters or Whedon had to say about the hammer has no bearing on the audience's interpretation of a scene, only the text of the film mattera. The author is dead. Otherwise, Deckard would be a Replicant because Ridley Scott says so.

My reading of the hammer scene is a perfectly valid interpretation based on the text of the film alone and thus not "fan fiction."
Maybe just take the L when even the director proves your head-canon wrong. You can drop #notmycap or something if it annoys you what the actual creators thought up for him. "Becoming more worthy of Mjolnir" was never any part of Cap's "character arc" anywhere.

Your reading is absolutely fanfiction, because the films, as well as their creators say otherwise.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,932
oh god this is worse than I even imagined. Don't Marvel has some kind of quality check to not release shit like this?
The original story implied that her love was genuine in spite of the brainwashing. She was courted for real and the guy just used a "bit" of brainwashing to make it more effective when she was in the other dimension, so it wasn't bad... which is stupid, but seemed to be the logic of the writer and likely editors. At the end, she wasn't supposed to be brainwashed anymore when she decides to stay with him, but still loved him.

Although of course, it turns out that she was still brainwashed when other writers wanted to get rid of that 'ending'. It kind of makes me think the original writer had a brainwashing fetish, because he easily could have removed the mention of brainwashing and played out the story in the same way (although it'd still be really creepy).
 
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Oct 27, 2017
14,748
Maybe just take the L when even the director proves your head-canon wrong. You can drop #notmycap or something if it annoys you what the actual creators thought up for him. "Becoming more worthy of Mjolnir" was never any part of Cap's "character arc" anywhere.

Your reading is absolutely fanfiction, because the films, as well as their creators say otherwise.
The film states nothing, what the director says has no bearing on how individual's interpret a scene. Again, Blade Runner is a classic example. If you need a director or screenwriter to directly tell you what is going on and meant by each scene then perhaps you should watch more films.

We analyze films based on their text/visual language not what the director or screenwriter say it's supposed to mean.
 
Oct 30, 2017
4,747
The original story implied that her love was genuine in spite of the brainwashing. She was courted for real and the guy just used a "bit" of brainwashing to make it more effective when she was in the other dimension, so it wasn't bad... which is stupid, but seemed to be the logic of the writer and likely editors. At the end, she wasn't supposed to be brainwashed anymore when she decides to stay with him, but still loved him.

Although of course, it turns out that she was still brainwashed when other writers wanted to get rid of that 'ending'. It kind of makes me think the original writer had a brainwashing fetish, because he easily could have removed the mention of brainwashing and played out the story in the same way.
Which is weird, since Chris Claremont TOTALLY has a mind control fetish or something, but he's pretty much credited for salvaging Captain Marvel from that story in the follow up.

The original story had ALL kinds of problems, even without the follow-up saying she was still being brainwashed. It was problematic, and the follow-up story called it out.

... Not that Carol was treated much better in the comics afterwards though.
 
Nov 2, 2017
4,154
The film states nothing, what the director says has no bearing on how individual's interpret a scene. Again, Blade Runner is a classic example. If you need a director or screenwriter to directly tell you what is going on and meant by each scene then perhaps you should watch more films.

We analyze films based on their text/visual language not what the director or screenwriter say it's supposed to mean.
The film states the entire story, you just don't like it, and prefer to spin your own story. That's on you, not us, or the films. The "visual language" from both AOU and Endgame speaks entirely against you. The hammer moves, Thor is shocked, in Endgame he yells "I knew it!" when Cap wields the hammer. There's no two ways about it, especially when Whedon and Feige give further confirmation.

And thanks, I'm fine with the thousands of films I've already seen, and I don't need your silly personal attacks just because you can't handle your fanon being untrue. This reminds me so much of the #notmyluke crowd right now. :P
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,583
The Russos and Markus/McFeely have recently shared some contradicting interpretations of Endgame's ending with Cap; whether he grows old in an alternate timeline or he grows old in the main MCU one, making him the father of Peggy's kids in Winter Soldier. Can you give us a definite canon answer for this?

KevFeige


Yes.
Fuck
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,507
The original story implied that her love was genuine in spite of the brainwashing. She was courted for real and the guy just used a "bit" of brainwashing to make it more effective when she was in the other dimension, so it wasn't bad... which is stupid, but seemed to be the logic of the writer and likely editors. At the end, she wasn't supposed to be brainwashed anymore when she decides to stay with him, but still loved him.

Although of course, it turns out that she was still brainwashed when other writers wanted to get rid of that 'ending'. It kind of makes me think the original writer had a brainwashing fetish, because he easily could have removed the mention of brainwashing and played out the story in the same way (although it'd still be really creepy).
...That didn't make it much better, especially the part when she decides to stay with her "son" rapist, brainwashing or not. Reads like that guy had more like just a brainwashing fetish.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,932
...That didn't make it much better, especially the part when she decides to stay with her "son" rapist, brainwashing or not. Reads like that guy had more like just a brainwashing fetish.
He is only a rapist because of the brainwashing though. There was no violence involved. Still, yeah, giving birth to her own lover and staying with him would still be really creepy even without the brainwashing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,003
The fact he confirmed Martin Starr's forgettable Incredible Hulk character is the same person as his teacher character in the Spider-Man movies is immensely satisfying in a very stupid way.
Wait what? That would be fucking stupid. That means Martin Starr is amadeus cho. And it would also mean we wouldnt be getting a legit amadeus cho
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,667
Limburg
Why is it bullshit? Steve was able to move Mjolnir. I don't think there's any depiction of Mjolnir where you can move it partially. You can't be kind of worthy. Either you are or you aren't.
The implication is that Steve wasn’t “worthy” yet. Later after the events of civil and infinity war, he had learned some things, fought himself, time travelled, ect. Clearly he was “worthy” by the end of Endgame.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
Nah, it's a dumb explanation that fails to recognize character growth. The simple explanation is that Cap wasn't worthy at that moment. He was trying to pull the hammer as part of a pissing contest and was secretly keeping the knowledge of Bucky from Tony. He wasn't worthy yet, but he could move it some because he had potential. In End Game, he calls for the hammer in his most desperate moment when all doubts and secrets have been revealed. In that moment he is worthy.

It's called a character arc
Yeah, I don't get why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Seems completely obvious to me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,923
The original story implied that her love was genuine in spite of the brainwashing. She was courted for real and the guy just used a "bit" of brainwashing to make it more effective when she was in the other dimension, so it wasn't bad... which is stupid, but seemed to be the logic of the writer and likely editors. At the end, she wasn't supposed to be brainwashed anymore when she decides to stay with him, but still loved him.

Although of course, it turns out that she was still brainwashed when other writers wanted to get rid of that 'ending'. It kind of makes me think the original writer had a brainwashing fetish, because he easily could have removed the mention of brainwashing and played out the story in the same way (although it'd still be really creepy).
If Whedon is still involved and he hasn't change from who he was as the person who did Angel, i could see him doing this storyline. In Angel, he made Cordelia, the main female lead, get pregnant via demons twice. Once was through sex with a demon while the other one was through demonic reproduction means.

The third time was the worst. Cordelia was possessed by a higher power, seduced Angel's teenage son (who was a teenager because he was kidnapped into another dimension and came back) to have sex with her to get pregnant. Cordelia proceeds to give birth to that higher being and goes into a coma for a whole year before coming back for 1 episode just to die "peacefully". Sounds familiar?
 
Oct 27, 2017
14,748
The film states the entire story, you just don't like it, and prefer to spin your own story. That's on you, not us, or the films. The "visual language" from both AOU and Endgame speaks entirely against you. The hammer moves, Thor is shocked, in Endgame he yells "I knew it!" when Cap wields the hammer. There's no two ways about it, especially when Whedon and Feige give further confirmation.

And thanks, I'm fine with the thousands of films I've already seen, and I don't need your silly personal attacks just because you can't handle your fanon being untrue. This reminds me so much of the #notmyluke crowd right now. :P
It doesn't and there is, hence why people in this very thread have different interpretations of the scene. Once again, what Whedon and Feige state means jack shit.
 
Oct 17, 2018
3,726
Clearly not yet, otherwise he could have lifted it then. Thor went through an “unworthy” phase himself in the comics. So this isn’t some violation to consider that Steve becomes worthy later.
Steve moved the hammer. It budged. Thor reacted to it. This was already discussed in this thread:

http://www.4ye.co.uk/2015/07/sdcc-2...ss-whedon-answers-tough-questions-at-nerd-hq/

“How is Steve Rogers not worthy?” a fan asked. “Is he not? Are we sure?” Whedon responded, a hint of teasing in his voice. “Did he fail? Or did he stop?”
You cannot be "kind of" worthy. That isn't an established rule of the setting. The hammer budged.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,891
Nah, it's a dumb explanation that fails to recognize character growth. The simple explanation is that Cap wasn't worthy at that moment. He was trying to pull the hammer as part of a pissing contest and was secretly keeping the knowledge of Bucky from Tony. He wasn't worthy yet, but he could move it some because he had potential. In End Game, he calls for the hammer in his most desperate moment when all doubts and secrets have been revealed. In that moment he is worthy.

It's called a character arc
Something similar happened in JLA/Avengers. Superman picks up Mjolnir, and uses it, and in the course of the fight ends up dropping it. Afterwards, he goes back to pick it up, and can't, and asks Thor why. Thor replies that in the moment, he was worth to wield it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,313
Guy who wrote the movie: Cap was worthy
Guy in charge of the entire MCU: Cap was worthy
People who have presumably been reading the comics for years: Cap was worthy; you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground
Inexplicable hold outs: All of you are wrong

Cap goes to lift the hammer, feels it move, goes "oh shit" and stops actually trying to lift it.

Thor's Hammer to Cap: You're not worthy ;) yet ;) ;) maybe someday tho ;) ;) ;) ;)
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,153
Guy who wrote the movie: Cap was worthy
Guy in charge of the entire MCU: Cap was worthy
People who have presumably been reading the comics for years: Cap was worthy; you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground
Inexplicable hold outs: All of you are wrong

Cap goes to lift the hammer, feels it move, goes "oh shit" and stops actually trying to lift it.

Thor's Hammer to Cap: You're not worthy ;) yet ;) ;) maybe someday tho ;) ;) ;) ;)
LOL I imagine the hammer going 'Nope.' 'Nope'. at all the others who tried to lift it, but when it came to Cap, it went.... Ehhhhhh maybe?? I'll just budge a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit. But I see great things in your future, so work hard at it. The rest of you lot are trash though. Forever.
 
Oct 17, 2018
3,726
Something similar happened in JLA/Avengers. Superman picks up Mjolnir, and uses it, and in the course of the fight ends up dropping it. Afterwards, he goes back to pick it up, and can't, and asks Thor why. Thor replies that in the moment, he was worth to wield it.
Being worthy, and then being not worthy, is completely different from being worthy enough to budge Mjolnir but not being worthy enough to lift it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,655
Guy who wrote the movie: Cap was worthy
Guy in charge of the entire MCU: Cap was worthy
People who have presumably been reading the comics for years: Cap was worthy; you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground
Inexplicable hold outs: All of you are wrong

Cap goes to lift the hammer, feels it move, goes "oh shit" and stops actually trying to lift it.

Thor's Hammer to Cap: You're not worthy ;) yet ;) ;) maybe someday tho ;) ;) ;) ;)
This sums it up.

It's not like a progress bar where Cap was earning XP and the meter was only at 79% worthiness.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,110
Los Angeles, CA
Cap was always worthy of wielding Mjolnir. Period. He chose not to do it in AoU because that’s totally a Cap thing to do. The enchantment on Mjolnir doesn’t say, “if you’re kind of worthy you can budge it a little.” Either you can move it, or you can’t move it at all. Hell, Thor shows a string of people failing to budge it, and if there’s a “kind of worthy” rule out there, no doubt millions of people would be able to budge it. Whedon isn’t some noob to comics, and what he put in AoU was clearly a wink and a nod to the fans that knew there’d be a payoff later on down the road. I remember leaving that movie and talking with my wife about it, and we were both like, “Steve could totally life Mjolnir, but didn’t to spare Thor’s pride.”

Thor’s “I knew it!” in Endgame seals it that he always suspected Steve could wield it.

Much like the Avengers Assemble line teased in AoU, Whedon knew it’d be used in a more fitting scenario later on, even if he didn’t plan on setting up the moments in Endgame specifically.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,202
Guy who wrote the movie: Cap was worthy
Guy in charge of the entire MCU: Cap was worthy
People who have presumably been reading the comics for years: Cap was worthy; you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground
Inexplicable hold outs: All of you are wrong

Cap goes to lift the hammer, feels it move, goes "oh shit" and stops actually trying to lift it.

Thor's Hammer to Cap: You're not worthy ;) yet ;) ;) maybe someday tho ;) ;) ;) ;)
LMAO

Mjolnir be like
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,891
Being worthy, and then being not worthy, is completely different from being worthy enough to budge Mjolnir but not being worthy enough to lift it.
Hence the word "similar" in my post. If it was the same, I would've used "exactly"

Guy who wrote the movie: Cap was worthy
Guy in charge of the entire MCU: Cap was worthy
People who have presumably been reading the comics for years: Cap was worthy; you either are or you aren't, there's no middle ground
Inexplicable hold outs: All of you are wrong

Cap goes to lift the hammer, feels it move, goes "oh shit" and stops actually trying to lift it.

Thor's Hammer to Cap: You're not worthy ;) yet ;) ;) maybe someday tho ;) ;) ;) ;)
Look at the title to the OT avengers thread in hangouts. There are people who think they know better than Feige which phase Far From Home is in.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,307
Steve gives it a real effort on in his first tug, but as soon as he feels it move, he loosens up his grip, then pantomimes trying to lift it for a second time for longer, before letting out an exasperated sigh like he really put in the same effort as everyone else, then humbly admitting he couldn't do it.

Even as a real world explanation, Whedon had said they rigged the hammer so that it couldn't move at all when the actors tried to pull it, but we see it budge when Cap tries to lift it the first time in the close up, so Chris Evans had a non-rigged hammer that he was supposed to be pretending he couldn't lift for at least that one shot in that scene. Cap/Evans was faking it this whole time.
 
Yeah, I don't get why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Seems completely obvious to me.
You guys are fucking batshit insane if you think your opinions are more valid than Feige‘s. He literally is the final decision maker/bucks stops here cat for these films. If he says something is canon, it’s canon. You can “interpret it” all you want, your opinion is not ranked above his.
 

Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
11,558
Please, I just want Namor. PLEASE.
Welcome to my group of sexy aqua friends.

Reed Richards entitlement and lack of understanding the treasure he has will be his eternal shame. What the marvel universe needs is a hero who doesn't put up with pathetic mortal "manners" and weakness. And what Susan Storm needs is a scent of manly brine and a serious gentleman who understands how special she is and can match her strength and power with his own.

And Axe body spray should consider some crab and creel editions.




On an equally serious note : there are literally people in this thread in denial about something that happens right in front of their faces in about the most unambiguous way possible - is foreshadowed in comics more than once, directly illustrated, spoken in plain English and followed up on in story, visuals and dialog in two movies.

I will concede that the intent in Ultron may have been to show cap was close to but not quite yet worthy - and I'll fully concede that the universe is easily stretchy enough to accommodate a non binary Excalibur state for mjolnir - but that it doesn't happen at all in Ultron and connected directly and deliberately across two films is well - false.

It's right there.
 
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