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KeyForge by Richard Garfield - The first Unique Deck Game (can't modify decks)
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
So I just picked up two decks to try this with my son, but I guess I also need a bunch of stuff from the starter pack. Oh well now to hunt that down...
You can use just about anything for that. Plus I've seen some sets that are much nicer than the official ones for around $20.
I just bought my first few decks and I'm using some multi-colored push pins that I had left over from my theater room setup. (bought them for the black ones) I just snipped off the pointy parts. The whole package was under a buck originally.
You don't really need it. You can download the rules from the site and use whatever you wish for the various tokens. I like having the bespoke tokens and the decks from the starter to learn the game but it's been selling out a lot and can be hard to find a copy so if you want to get to it right away, I'd just grab some proxies for now.
Just print the rules out online (Or read them) and use anything for tokens.
stealer of souls?
damn that one would synergize like crazy with the armour and healing of sanctum
or with protect the weak to get taunt
sounds really powerful depending on what else you have in that deck
LOL that's pretty funny, but I'm fairly sure it actually works in your favor: You can't select a house that isn't part of your deck, so I'm pretty sure it actually just doesn't have a downside as a maverick in that deck. You only ever follow as much text as is possible, and it's not possible for you to select Dis (It's not that you can choose houses you don't have, you HAVE to choose a house on your card).
the rules explicitly say, though, that you may end up in situations where you have no legal house choice, in which case you must choose no house
That's because you can have things that DENY your ability to choose a house. this doesn't do that. This just said "You have to do this thing" but since you can't, you don't.
It's the difference between "You cannot declare any house but Dis" and "You have to declare Dis"
One is something you can do (Not declare a house) the other is not (Declare a house not in your deck)
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This seems uncomfortably similar to arguing that a "can't" restriction (you can't pick a house not in your deck) overrules "can" (you must pick this house).
The rules already have an explicit example that if you have Pitlord (you must pick Dis) and the opponent plays Restringuntus (you can't pick Dis), you have to pick no house because of the contradiction (the effect is that you instantly lose since you're unlikely to have any Omni ability that kills Restringuntus).
Your case is different because you're saying the contradiction is less valid due to it bumping into the rules instead of cards, but I would still want an official ruling.
There is the golden rule blurb that says text on cards that contradicts the rulebook takes precedence. This is still such a unique situation that I'd want to hear an official ruling too.
I love that Richard Garfield posts on boardgamegeek to clarify things, I tried looking for this online somewhere but it's just mostly speculation.
I love that Richard Garfield posts on boardgamegeek to clarify things, I tried looking for this online somewhere but it's just mostly speculation.
Yeah, unfortunately Garfield isn't a reference on the rules since he admits he can be overruled by the actual design team, Biomatrix Backup being a big example of the game in practice versus the game as he intended.
And yes, the golden rule says cards override rules, which is another point in favor of Pitlord overriding the rules about calling houses.
I think there are going to be a lot of very strange specific things like Biomatrix Backup in the game. I would hope Richard Garfield is talking to the rest of the design team, haha.
I'm actually happy that really weird lockout combos are being kept in and not ruled away in a lot of cases.
I'm actually happy that really weird lockout combos are being kept in and not ruled away in a lot of cases.
And I'm not, because I think that's the single biggest mistake of the game, and the single biggest negative experience. Things like Wild Wormhole decks with Pitlord, or a deck with 3x Control the Weak plus whatever else, anything with Restringuntus.
If there were an option of discarding one or more cards so you essentially skip your turn, it would at least give you a chance and be less miserable, compared to Garfield's theory of "well if you skip your turn you've basically lost anyway so you should just concede" combined with not actually putting that in the rules or mentioning it as an intended alternate win condition, so you have to draw implications from the rules to even see it's possible.
The slight chance of "if you play this card first turn you might instantly win the game if your opponent is unlucky" is the silly cherry on top. I don't think that should be in ANY card game, no matter how unlikely.
I can see another rulebook update coming at some point. It's not like it hasn't happened already.
I'm saying those are completely different situations. The Pitlord text is something you LITERALLY cannot do, not being forced to do something you don't want to do.
"When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest. "
That is super clear cut, you literally CANNOT resolve "You must select Dis" if you're not playing Dis.
When you ARE playing Dis, you can resolve it, and when you're opponent says you can't play Dis, you can resolve that. They just both resolve into you being unable to select either. That's the difference.
What says you cannot select Dis if you're not playing Dis?
No, because there's a contradiction. Pitlord says you must, and Restringuntus says you mustn't. They don't "both resolve into you being unable to select either" -- instead, there's a contradiciton, and the rulebook specifies that such a contradiction results in no legal house being an option.
The Pitlord card is specifically mentioned in the back of the 1.1 rulebook:
Keyforge Rulebook said:
EDIT: It sounds like everyone is already aware of this example.
The "house choice" section on page 10 of the rulebook says "Each turn, a player must choose one of the three houses indicated by their identity card, if able."
But it also says "If there is no legal choice of house, the player plays the turn with no active house.", which Pitlord seems to force the player into.
And then because it also says "If a player is faced with two (or more) "must choose" mandates, the player may choose either of those options.", it looks like the player gets to choose.
let's talk about our favourite deck
which of your decks is your favourite? (not necessarily the strongest, but the one you enjoy using the most.) how do you play with it? what are the unique synergies? what are the weaknesses?
i only have two decks, of which one is a bit crap, but i've finally gotten the hang of my dis mars shadows deck and enjoy playing with it a lot
"Bilgewater" Arvir, Landing Strip Bard
the secret to success is the key abduction card which allows me to make a key on the card play/use phase
most of the time it's very hard to use and inferior to cards like untamed's key charge. but in my deck it has just the kind of support it needs to be successful. specifically, it has a decent amount (7) of mars creatures and one arise!. so one winning play is to get my mars creatures out as soon as possible, use them to maintain board dominance as well as i can and then when all or most of them are dead, get them back with arise! if i have enough amber for the key just with that (which is rarely the case though, but if use both hysteria and and arise it might be possible) i just use key abduction immediately on the next turn. otherwise, i get the creatures out, pray my opponent doesn't have a board wipe, and next turn reap with them until i have enough for the key abduction and then use key abduction to forge the key
the deck also has ways to YOLO for quick but unsustainable amber generation with two hecatombs. so i get as many dis creatures out as possible, then hecatomb for around four to six amber in a turn, then maybe gateway to dis (if my opponent has a lot of creatures out) and then arise! to get my mars back to set up the key abduction. (a second arise! would have been great in case my opponent has board wipes or for a second use of hecatomb, but alas i only have the one)
key abduction also synergizes well with the risky quick amber generation artifact: the sting, which can generate a lot of amber, but at the same time makes me unable to forge keys without special key forging cards like key abduction
setting a key abduction forge situation up takes a lot of time though, which makes the fact that the deck contains a lot of stalling cards very welcome. grabber jammer, miasma, charette, orbital storm, shadows creatures that steal and control the weak to force my opponent to choose a house where i have a hunch they'd be weak at the moment. i also have ways to purge and pseudo purge (put into my own archive) annoying enemy creatures
(the key abduction is especially useful against opponents with shadows that can steal back all the aember i need to win, since it allows me to win during the play phase of my turn. for opponents that lack shadows, more straightforward tactics work well too.)
it's still not a great deck by any means, but it has a unique play style and is fun to play. a big weakness is that i don't have a way to archive action cards, so opponents with cards that make me discard cards from hand or play can really ruin my plans. its slowness also makes it struggle against opponents with untamed amber mass generation decks.
what is most fun about the deck is that it requires me to be flexible in my game plan and to accurately read my opponent to be successful. the big arise! plan falls flat if if they have a board wipe to take out all my arisen mars creatures. my own single board wipe (and one pseudo boardwipe with hysteria) needs to come at the right moment to be impactful. i need to read my opponent correctly to have success with control the weak. if my opponent have shadows (which seems to be very common) i have to be very careful with generating amber in a chunk with hecatomb and specifically the sting, because there's a big risk they'll call shadow and just get that amber back with bait and switch or too much to protect in which case it'll be very hard to claw back.
drawing the end-game cards too early into the game will also cause problems and i need to find a way to deal with that. the lesson i learned from my last game (which i lost horribly) is that i need to learn to aggressively discard even the winning combo cards if i fail to draw the creatures i need to establish board presence (specifically, one of shadow self, tunk or yxlix dominator)
which of your decks is your favourite? (not necessarily the strongest, but the one you enjoy using the most.) how do you play with it? what are the unique synergies? what are the weaknesses?
i only have two decks, of which one is a bit crap, but i've finally gotten the hang of my dis mars shadows deck and enjoy playing with it a lot
"Bilgewater" Arvir, Landing Strip Bard
the secret to success is the key abduction card which allows me to make a key on the card play/use phase
most of the time it's very hard to use and inferior to cards like untamed's key charge. but in my deck it has just the kind of support it needs to be successful. specifically, it has a decent amount (7) of mars creatures and one arise!. so one winning play is to get my mars creatures out as soon as possible, use them to maintain board dominance as well as i can and then when all or most of them are dead, get them back with arise! if i have enough amber for the key just with that (which is rarely the case though, but if use both hysteria and and arise it might be possible) i just use key abduction immediately on the next turn. otherwise, i get the creatures out, pray my opponent doesn't have a board wipe, and next turn reap with them until i have enough for the key abduction and then use key abduction to forge the key
the deck also has ways to YOLO for quick but unsustainable amber generation with two hecatombs. so i get as many dis creatures out as possible, then hecatomb for around four to six amber in a turn, then maybe gateway to dis (if my opponent has a lot of creatures out) and then arise! to get my mars back to set up the key abduction. (a second arise! would have been great in case my opponent has board wipes or for a second use of hecatomb, but alas i only have the one)
key abduction also synergizes well with the risky quick amber generation artifact: the sting, which can generate a lot of amber, but at the same time makes me unable to forge keys without special key forging cards like key abduction
setting a key abduction forge situation up takes a lot of time though, which makes the fact that the deck contains a lot of stalling cards very welcome. grabber jammer, miasma, charette, orbital storm, shadows creatures that steal and control the weak to force my opponent to choose a house where i have a hunch they'd be weak at the moment. i also have ways to purge and pseudo purge (put into my own archive) annoying enemy creatures
(the key abduction is especially useful against opponents with shadows that can steal back all the aember i need to win, since it allows me to win during the play phase of my turn. for opponents that lack shadows, more straightforward tactics work well too.)
it's still not a great deck by any means, but it has a unique play style and is fun to play. a big weakness is that i don't have a way to archive action cards, so opponents with cards that make me discard cards from hand or play can really ruin my plans. its slowness also makes it struggle against opponents with untamed amber mass generation decks.
what is most fun about the deck is that it requires me to be flexible in my game plan and to accurately read my opponent to be successful. the big arise! plan falls flat if if they have a board wipe to take out all my arisen mars creatures. my own single board wipe (and one pseudo boardwipe with hysteria) needs to come at the right moment to be impactful. i need to read my opponent correctly to have success with control the weak. if my opponent have shadows (which seems to be very common) i have to be very careful with generating amber in a chunk with hecatomb and specifically the sting, because there's a big risk they'll call shadow and just get that amber back with bait and switch or too much to protect in which case it'll be very hard to claw back.
drawing the end-game cards too early into the game will also cause problems and i need to find a way to deal with that. the lesson i learned from my last game (which i lost horribly) is that i need to learn to aggressively discard even the winning combo cards if i fail to draw the creatures i need to establish board presence (specifically, one of shadow self, tunk or yxlix dominator)
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The second part doesn't happen either though, it doesn't say "You cannot choose any house but dis" it says "You must choose dis" the difference is subtle but important. Because the first thing is something you CAN follow as a rule without having Dis in your deck, and the second is not.
However, that is overridden, per page 3:
"THE GOLDEN RULE
If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of the rules, the text of
the card takes precedence."
I'm not sure if either of you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. As I understand it, the following three things apply:
Pitlord says "While Pitlord is in play, YOU MUST CHOOSE Dis as your active House".
The rulebook says "YOU MUST CHOOSE one of the three houses indicated by your identity card" (in the example above, Logos, Brobnar, or Mars).
The rulebook also says "If a player is faced with two (or more) 'MUST CHOOSE' mandates, the player may choose either of those options".
This means the player gets to choose either the Pitlord MUST CHOOSE (declare Dis) or the rulebook MUST CHOOSE (declare a house from your identity card), right?
I argue no, the Pitlord text explicitly telling you what you must do overrides the rules text about possible house, per the golden rule.
Consider someone using your argument in a normal deck:
1. Player has a deck with Dis, and Pitlord is on their field.
2. Player starts their turn and says, "I MUST CHOOSE Dis as my active House."
3. Player cites the rules and says, "the rulebook argues I MUST CHOOSE one of the three houses indicated by my identity card."
4. Player argues, "sure I could fulfil both mandates, but the rulebook also says, 'If a player is faced with two (or more) 'MUST CHOOSE' mandates, the player may choose either of those options'". Therefore, I choose the 'one of the three houses' MUST CHOOSE option, since nothing says I have to fulfil all MUST CHOOSE options simultaneously if possible."
Nah, you must choose Dis when you play that pitlord. So either find a way to get rid of it or find a way to use it. Or just don't ever play it.
What am I missing here? The Rulebook reference from cakely could not be any clearer, what is there still to debate?
Again, you CANNOT select a house that isn't in your deck.
Otherwise the rule of "Do as much as you can" on a card would not exist. It's like telling me to drive a ferrari off a lot when there is no ferrari there to drive. I CAN'T do that.
Another example would be a card telling you to draw a card if you somehow had no cards left in your deck or discard pile. Like, ok. But you can't, so you don't. You ignore that part of the card.
It's VERY different when you have Dis in your deck, because then you CAN do it, even if another card is also doing something you CAN do, and those contradict, it leaves you houseless, but when you can't do it in the first place it's flat out not a legal selection.
"If there is no legal choice of house, the player plays the turn with no active house."
That really is everything there needs to be said.
That really is everything there needs to be said.
Except that's not what is happening. It doesn't say "You can't choose anything but Dis"
There is a difference.
YOU CANNOT CHOOSE DIS. Like, that is not a legal selection under any circuimstance for that deck. Ergo, a card cannot force you to select it. Again, that is a huge difference. "I choose Dis...but I can't. so I ignore that part, now I select X Y or Z" is not the same as "I cannot select X Y or Z"
Even if you disagree with my stance on it, as ALSO pointed out earlier:
Each turn, a player must choose one of the three houses indicated by their identity card, if able. Some card abilities may restrict a player's house choice
If a player is faced with two (or more) "must choose" mandates, the player may choose either of those options.
The Restringus example is not two 'must choose' but a must choose and a cannot choose restriction.
Yes, it's not a legal choice, hence "If there is no legal choice of house, the player plays the turn with no active house."
I understand what you are saying I just disagree and in my opinion the rulebook reference majes it cleat eventhough it's refering to a different situation.
I guess we'll have to wait until there is official classification.
I understand what you are saying I just disagree and in my opinion the rulebook reference majes it cleat eventhough it's refering to a different situation.
I guess we'll have to wait until there is official classification.
Will be interesting to see the ruling. I could imagine they make it so that you are forced to play only the house that the Pit Demon belongs to.
With the current rules, I definitely think it overrides the normal rule of choosing a house, and therefore forces you to pick no house.
With the current rules, I definitely think it overrides the normal rule of choosing a house, and therefore forces you to pick no house.
The only reason you say you can't select it is because the rules tell you that you can't select it.
The card tells you to select it, overriding the rules, as explicitly defined in the very same rules, and emphasized as a very special rule called the golden rule.
The rules don't say "do as much as you can, choosing which parts of the original rules to keep instead of letting the card override the rules."
Just to clear something up, any creature can reap for 1 aember? Even if they don't have a reap ability? This aember goes directly into the aember pool?
As long as they're of the active house and not yet exhausted, I do believe so.
Yes. But there are some that specifically can't reap, like Tireless Crocag.
Yeah. The first line of the card text says "Tireless Crocag cannot reap.".
From what I understand, yes he is.
Both games are pretty amazing too. He's just a genius designer.
I just saw this thread yesterday morning. After reading the last couple pages here and checking out the Reddit, I'm really intrigued. My husband and I have lots of board games but never got into collectible card games. I really like the idea that your deck is already complete and competitive as is. Hoping to stop by the local game store tomorrow and see if they have a few decks in stock that I can get for us as a Christmas gift. Would you suggest the starter set if they have it or is that unnecessary?
The starter set is only necessary if you don't have any damage counter tokens, or things that can represent amber / stun / shield. But we've just used dice and other tokens from other games, and that's worked well enough!
Buying the starter gets you two learner decks that are the same in every starter, and two unique decks. Really you could just buy four unique decks and get about the same result, but with more flexibility if you meet up with other keyforge players. In the end, there's no real right or wrong, just depends on your needs :)
Thanks for your reply! Yeah we have plenty of bits from other games we could use, and if we like it enough I have a feeling we might try to create our own. There were some really nice looking homemade tokens posted on Reddit. It sounds like learning on a new deck won't be too much harder than learning on the starter deck and all the rules are online. Hope we get some amusing deck names!
