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Kimishima (Nintendo CEO) : Aside from Labo, there's more new ways to play coming
- Thread starter Deleted member 2791
- Start date
Matthewmatosis about sums up my feelings on not only SS, but on motion controls in general.
Aside examples such as Mario and Zelda, I have a problem with motion controls in general, as they introduce an element of ambiguity into controller inputs which lead to inaccuracy and ultimately frustration, oftentimes due to no fault of the player (of which gyroscopic aiming in BotW didn't suffer from). Nintendo games have always been ones that I've been able to expect a degree of exceptional polish and precision in their gameplay, and that is no longer guaranteed. Motion controls have tarnished that reputation for the sake of innovation. It's not a concession I'm willing to make for their games until it can be done with 100% certainty, or with them giving us the ability to opt out to be able to assure that certainty.
The nature of going from handheld to docked or vice versa comes (or should come) with the assurance that in either mode the game will be playable to the exact same standard of gameplay. To not only not allow that, but intentionally sabotage it is 100% poor design. When people argue it's still perfectly playable, they're missing the point. I can also play TLoU without using Molotovs, or can pick any other game where I neglect to use certain mechanics. Perfectly playable? Absolutely. As enjoyable? No.
They've let it happen to Mario by not allowing full button support. You can play portably, but not without sacrifice to functionality. I'm fairly certain more of this will be seen in future releases.
Again, I'm not arguing it's not playable, only that it's less playable in portable mode.
I don't understand why this is excused. What is there to gain from defending Nintendo here? Wouldn't you have appreciated full button support? I have not heard one single valid reason as to why there shouldn't be any, only justifications to excuse. Aside from blind loyalty to the company, I can't think of any reason why what they're doing is defended. It's self-defeating.
Because Odyssey was designed to be played with a very specific control scheme. Some things are going to be lost in translation when you adapt the mechanics to other control methods, and there are other games with mechanics that can't be adapted to buttons at all. The idea that every Switch game must have some magic "turn motion off" button is unrealistic at best. Developers will inevitable run into a concept or mechanic that only Motion can really provide.
I don't know HOW they will do it, but I bet they will do something that lets you use your Switch in Boardgaming.
Like, Nintendo (or third party) released boardgames that use the Switch and the Joycons to introduce new mechanics.
Like, Nintendo (or third party) released boardgames that use the Switch and the Joycons to introduce new mechanics.
Board games are a genre that would be perfect for the Switch. Some developers are actually exploring that right now. Nintendo could take it a step further by putting out actual, physical board games that use the Switch hardware. .
I actually miss the smell of foam with brand new consoles N64 was the last to have it iirc
-Multiple switches can link up
-They can display different feeds of gameplay
Asymmetric multiplayer's back baby!
-They can display different feeds of gameplay
Asymmetric multiplayer's back baby!
There would have been nothing lost in translation. I don't buy for a second that it's due to hardware limitations, especially when buttons are left unused and/or are redundant. It's amazing to me that Nintendo is the one that provides us two form factors (the entire appeal of the system), then designs it to be used with a specific form factor in mind to gain full playability. It's entirely possible for them to make both docked and portable have the same degree of gameplay, not unrealistic at all, and they're simply choosing not to do it.
Not a big deal just being Mario I realize, but as I mostly use my Switch in portable mode, I'm concerned about the future and what mechanics we'll be missing out on. It's the same mentality they use for Amiibos....we're not missing content, it's extra bonuses. To do that with gameplay mechanics is ludicrous.
'Labo' is the Nintendo product that has impressed me the most since the Nintendo DS reveal an its vast array of new possibilities in the videogame medium. From make games more accesible thanks to the touch screen, to the possible ideas of expand a level design in two screens or an integrated microphone giving the existence of past experiments such as 'Seaman'. And with the exception of the microphone whose use was anecdotical, Nintendo DS delivered their promises in the form of creative new games such as 'Electroplankton', 'Trauma Center: Under the Knife', 'Etrian Odyssey' and its map drawing mechanic, 'Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan', plus a weird selection of bizarre and experimental titles such as 'Contact', 'Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland' or 'Project Rub'.
I love my Nintendo Switch, it's a system that has captivated my imagination in the same way as Dreamcast or Nintendo DS, two of my all-time favorite ecosystems. But I really really miss the experimental and creative approach to the videogame medium that we saw in the first years of DS, or in the short but intense life of Dreamcast.
For the first time with the reveal of 'Labo' I was able to see this creative and wildest Nintendo again.
So I'm really hyped to see what other weird stuff is preparing Nintendo. And in the same way as 'Labo', I'm sure that they will show things surpassing any concepts that I can imagine now. That was the magic in the Satoru Iwata's days. And I'm happy to see people like Yoshiaki Koizumi following the same spirit of innovation by expanding the boundaries and preconceived notions of videogames.
I love my Nintendo Switch, it's a system that has captivated my imagination in the same way as Dreamcast or Nintendo DS, two of my all-time favorite ecosystems. But I really really miss the experimental and creative approach to the videogame medium that we saw in the first years of DS, or in the short but intense life of Dreamcast.
For the first time with the reveal of 'Labo' I was able to see this creative and wildest Nintendo again.
So I'm really hyped to see what other weird stuff is preparing Nintendo. And in the same way as 'Labo', I'm sure that they will show things surpassing any concepts that I can imagine now. That was the magic in the Satoru Iwata's days. And I'm happy to see people like Yoshiaki Koizumi following the same spirit of innovation by expanding the boundaries and preconceived notions of videogames.
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See, I'm of the camp that thinks introducing some ambiguity in games can be fun, by dint of mastery of the game. After all, if the player's will is translated perfectly into game actions 100% of the time, there's no challenge and, ultimately, no fun.
And before you dismiss this as nonsense, let's remember that ambiguity in game controls has been present ever since the early days of video gaming -- look at rotary controllers (Pong), racing wheels, and analog triggers. Motion controls are just another form of the same thing, and mastery of motion controls is an equally valid way to enjoy a game as mastery of a game boss's attack patterns.
Depends on the game and the circumstances. I, myself, really enjoy playing ARMS, and I play it exclusively with motion controls, simply because I find they enhance the experience and my enjoyment. And while it's frustrating when I lose a match because I didn't react properly, the point is that I failed as a player -- and it makes the game more satisfying when I master the controls and become better at the game as a result.
Yep, that's exactly what I meant. And I know I would be excited to purchase an interactive Switch powered board game.
Three actually, you do realize Tabletop mode exists right? Anyway, The detached Joy-Con is the default control scheme in Mario Odyssey because the motion controls give the player more nuance in controlling Cappy. Plus, It's generally a fun way to play. You can play Odyssey however you want, but the developers intend the game be played with a specific control scheme as that's what brings the experience to life. It's like playing Guitar Hero with a standard controller. Sure, you can do it, but the game doesn't feel the same.
The Switch isn't just a handheld though, it's a hybrid tablet with a variety of forms. And Nintendo wants players to constantly be exploring different ways to use it, even outside of its 3 main modes.
Well said!'Labo' is the Nintendo product that has impressed me the most since the Nintendo DS reveal an its vast array of new possibilities in the videogame medium. From make games more accesible thanks to the touch screen, to the possible ideas of expand a level design in two screens or an integrated microphone giving the existence of past experiments such as 'Seaman'. And with the exception of the microphone whose use was anecdotical, Nintendo DS delivered their promises in the form of creative new games such as 'Electroplankton', 'Trauma Center: Under the Knife', 'Etrian Odyssey' and its map drawing mechanic, 'Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan', plus a weird selection of bizarre and experimental titles such as 'Contact', 'Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland' or 'Project Rub'.
I love my Nintendo Switch, it's a system that has captivated my imagination in the same way as Dreamcast or Nintendo DS, two of my all-time favorite ecosystems. But I really really miss the experimental and creative approach to the videogame medium that we saw in the first years of DS, or in the short but intense life of Dreamcast.
For the first time with the reveal of 'Labo' I was able to see this creative and wildest Nintendo again.
So I'm really hyped to see what other weird stuff is preparing Nintendo. And in the same way as 'Labo', I'm sure that they will show things surpassing any concepts that I can imagine now. That was the magic in the Satoru Iwata's days. And I'm happy to see people like Yoshiaki Koizumi following the same spirit of innovation by expanding the boundaries and preconceived notions of videogames.
I'm more in the camp where fighting the controller to get it to do what I want isn't challenging, it's frustrating. What's challenging in a game to me is excellent level design, great A.I., hard bosses, and good mechanics. If I'm challenged by getting the controls to do as I wish I'm not enjoying the game, I'm struggling to play it, because the UI is flawed in its design.
None of those control methods are ambiguous in their inputs. Analog triggers give the same input for the same degree they're pushed, as does turning a steering wheel. They're able to be reliably replicated every single time, and you don't need to spend any more than a few seconds mastering them.
Tabletop mode is not handheld mode and doesn't address my complaint about no full button support. A developer desiring a player to experience the game in a certain manner is not valid justification from precluding them from doing so to the same degree of functionality in another. I'm not sure why this is being framed as an either/or situation. Would offering options for full button support suddenly negate the nuance or make it less fun to play for those who are using the intended control method? I'm honestly a bit flabbergasted why so many have such a problem with simply providing options.
Aside from my general dislike of motion controls as I've elaborated on, I'm also disabled. I have a growth surrounding the brachial plexus to my left arm and suffer chronic pain due to it. Using it, even minimally, exacerbates this so I try to avoid doing so as much as possible. Because of this, I've lost fine motor control in my arm and shoulder due to atrophy and it can have a bit of a mind of its own at times. The reason I bring this up is to show that motion controls exclude or limit a certain demographic from enjoying Nintendo's games to their fullest. Of course there are games and tech (VR) where the disabled are SOL, c'est la vie, but Odyssey is not an example of one, nor is SS, nor is Starfox. Some people missed out on those game due to failing to include options. As you say, Guitar Hero had them, and I can guarantee you there were those who played that on a traditional controller, and were very grateful for the ability to do so even though it wasn't the way it was intended.
Which is precisely why all of those forms should be treated equally with full functionality across the board. When it's a hybrid, it should be expected that every form affords the exact same degree of gameplay, only in varying methodology.
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We need Switch Fit
Switch Fit
- Comes with Fit Band attachment for JoyCons, basically a stretchable band between the 2 JoyCons for multiple exercises. Band has colored sections and Fit Game tells you which sections to use/step on which then knows how hard the stretch is.
- Switch Band Grips have vitality sensor to track heart rate
- Switch Detects the motion movements of the JoyCons as you move you hands when stretching the Fit Band.
- Smartphone app allows you to also track your steps, as well as calorie counting etc, tracking fitness and all the other things smartphone fitness apps do.
Switch Fit
- Comes with Fit Band attachment for JoyCons, basically a stretchable band between the 2 JoyCons for multiple exercises. Band has colored sections and Fit Game tells you which sections to use/step on which then knows how hard the stretch is.
- Switch Band Grips have vitality sensor to track heart rate
- Switch Detects the motion movements of the JoyCons as you move you hands when stretching the Fit Band.
- Smartphone app allows you to also track your steps, as well as calorie counting etc, tracking fitness and all the other things smartphone fitness apps do.
First rule: do not ever, ever associate the console name on a gimmic peripheric
There are already games on Switch that are exclusive to undocked mode. VOEZ and Deemo are rhythm games that use touch controls exclusively and can only be played in handheld/tabletop mode.
That's different, as it requires the touchscreen to work. I was referring to the type of games in discussion, such as Mario. Those can work equally well in both portable and docked modes.
I feel its the exact opposite. The hybrid nature is exactly why Labo and any future endeavours of its ilk should exist. Its not just a console, its not just a handheld, its everything. Restraining gameplay or innovation to confining the companies own ideas to playing up to both strengths is inane and will ultimate stagnate growth, where as offering products that fully play into the handheld strengths or vice versa would let its full potential shine. For all we know Labo like products could come for console only play, or even down the line asymmetrical Wii U concepts could pop up with multiple Switches all playing the same game in handheld mode with more players on the TV. The ideas are limitless, but offering stuff to both gameplay styles is gonna kill the fun, and fast.
Wait, so touchscreen games are allowed to have exlusive or primary use of the touch screen, but motion controls can't?
Agree, it's why everything Wii now is ignored, should be Nintendo Fit, Nintendo Sports etc
The last time Nintendo did this, we got the awful Wii line up. Wii Music and so on with actual core games once every six months. It feels like Nintendo blew its load in 2017 and is now settling expectations that they don't have any big games leftover for the rest of the year so they are going to appeal to non-core gamers instead.
Essentially, they invested in Zelda TP to draw in hardcore gamers and once those hardcore gamers had raised the profile of their platform, they'll appeal almost exclusively to the casual market because casual games are far cheaper to make than hardcore games. That is the story of the Wii and was a big part of why people outright ignored the Wii U.
Essentially, they invested in Zelda TP to draw in hardcore gamers and once those hardcore gamers had raised the profile of their platform, they'll appeal almost exclusively to the casual market because casual games are far cheaper to make than hardcore games. That is the story of the Wii and was a big part of why people outright ignored the Wii U.
It's only February. They're going to have new core games this year.
The Wii U and Wii had core games too. They were sparse offerings compared to other platforms. Especially on the Wii, when the company transitioned into nearly exclusively releasing casual games years after year. That's the heart of my post.
Kirby Star Allies is not on the level of Breath of the Wild, Odyssey, or even Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Neither is Mario Tennis Aces. Fire Emblem looks to be the only game that might do well in that regard. EVERYTHING else from the platform holder is a port. That's not good and is reminiscent of the same kind of drought that has plagued Nintendo systems for the past 20 years. That, instead of continuing to build on the new chance hardcore gamers have given to the Switch, Nintendo is starting to champion alternative (casual) forms of play, is troubling because it feels like a road we've been down before, since it's what Nintendo did at least twice before by using hardcore gamers to get a foot in with gamers and then moving to create budget software only.
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this! if they balance well labo stuffs with "traditional" games they win but if they let go to labo route it will be WiiU again!
Casual =/= Bad. The "awful" Wii Line is actually pretty good with Wii Music being the only real stickler in the series. And Nintendo actually made more core titles in Wii than games like those tbh.
Not everything has to appeal to you though. You can't expect a year like 2017 every single year, not when AAA Nintendo games take at least 2 years to make. It's better for Nintendo to diversify and experiment with different concepts and ideas that appeal to different audiences than end up with Wii U era droughts where there were 6-8 month periods of Nintendo releasing nothing for the system, not even a dinky download title in the eShop. The Switch doesn't have that problem, Nintendo is releasing at least one game for it every month. It helps to have a platform that you can concentrate 95% of resources on.
Yep, just like how motion controls are bad for being imprecise non-digital inputs but rotary dials and steering wheels are okay for being imprecise non-digital inputs.
Maybe for you. Not for me. And not for a lot of people who were so tremendously dissatisfied with their Wii purchase that using the Wii branding on their Wii U platform killed the system dead on arrival.
And you're right. Not everything has to appeal to me. The Wii U had dinky Virtual Console and DLC games every week or so in the eShop. But that's not the point. When Monster Hunter World, and Dragon Ball Fighterz, and Shadow of the Colossus come out all in the same month and there is no comparative experience on the Switch, that is a major problem for a lot of people. Yakuza 6 and Valkyria Chronicles 4 come out a month from now. Switch owners meanwhile are ONLY getting Kirby Star Allies compared to 5 other major AAA experiences on the PS4 over the first quarter of the year. If that's not a drought for core gamers, I don't know what it is.
Labo is Nintendo's big April game (which honestly looks like an equivalent of 1-2-Switch for me). Meanwhile, Sony has God of War. Again the same problem. The kind of experiences that made the Switch such a huge success in 2017 are nowhere to be found for the first 1/3 of 2018. So yes, not everything has to appeal to me. But the reason I invested in this system and ecosystem are now being taken away from myself and others. We have a reason to be concerned.
To put it into perspective, this is a problem with-in Nintendo's own exosystem EVEN if we ignore their competitors. Year to year on March 3rd, 2017 we got The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. One year later we're getting Kirby Star Allies. That's a huge downgrade. One month later we got Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on April 28th, 2017. This year we're getting Project Labo on April 20th, 2018. Again a huge downgrade for core gamers.
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Well ourghostsofwar put it better than I could. I wouldn't care so much if Switch was getting third parties to hold the system up instead, but things like Monster Hunter World and Dragon Ball FIghterZ not getting Switch versions basically leaves it with nothing for me.
Like, the first game I might buy this year for Switch may end up being TWEWY and that might not be until June or later. And it's still only a port with additional content rather than a new game.
Like, the first game I might buy this year for Switch may end up being TWEWY and that might not be until June or later. And it's still only a port with additional content rather than a new game.
Wii U failed for a variety of reasons. The vocal minority of hardcore gamers who were dissatisfied with it are not one of them
You do realize VC4 is coming to Switch do you? Anyway, there isn't really a drought with the Switch. The console gets indie titles and thrid party ports every week (and BTW in regards to my Wii U eShop comment, I was referring to first party Nintendo games in the eShop, not the third party indie releases. Thanks for not actually reading what I said there), which hold more value on Switch thanks to the console's portable nature, which makes them more significant than on other platforms.
Nothing is being taken away from you, you still have all the 2017 games to play, several of which are getting new content this year. AAA first party games take time to make, so you can't expect every year to be like 2017. Nintendo are also notorious secret keepers, so they could drop a couple more titles in the first half of 2018 we didn't know about.
Funny how you complain about ports, yet you use ports to support your argument. And again, Nintendo can't crank out out AAA first party games every month. That's unrealistic, especially when where major titles take at least 2 years to make. That's why Nintendo fills in gaps with ports and smaller scale titles, they're cheap to make and require less development time, thus make good calandar padding until the next AAA release. Nintendo is coming off of an ambitious first year for the Switch, possibly the most ambitious yet, I think they deserve a short break for a few months.
You are talking about a drought. Well in January I managed to complete Xenoblade 2. We just got Céleste this week, which is a meaty, outstanding game. In few weeks most Switch gamers will have a 2nd chance to discover Bayonetta 2. Continuous amazing indie games are coming. Donkey Kong. Then Dark Souls on the go, which is gamer dream come true.
We are all gamers with multiple platforms, and it's normal to spend more time on a system than on another, depending on game releases. Our luck is that Switch can be played anywhere, that helps completing AAA games at home, while not missing incredible smaller games on the go.
You know which company is the biggest fan of Nintendo embracing the "toy" side of their business? A company like Gamestop who is looking for more physical gaming products to put on their shelves. Digital Downloads have been hurting their business, and I know this because over the past few years when I have browsed a Gamestop they have been slowly but surely scaling back on video game space and replacing it with gaming related merch. Gamestop is probably Nintendo's biggest cheerleader for them to develop more products that can't simply be downloaded from home.
If it's similar to Labo in making the system more appealing to completely different audiences, as opposed to most peripherals which tend to only appeal to a section of the existing audience, that would make a lot of sense.
The Switch is a brilliant system but it does create problems for Nintendo by leaving them more exposed to failure - historically if one system didn't perform as well as hoped they had the other to fall back on - as well as reducing their total hardware sales. I think a lot of Nintendo fans on here owned both a Wii as well as a DS and that being true meant that Nintnedo's combined sales of these systems eventually hit over 250 million, and here we are in that other thread debating whether the Switch will even hit 100 million! So yeah, it makes sense that they'd be looking to expand into other markets.
The Switch is a brilliant system but it does create problems for Nintendo by leaving them more exposed to failure - historically if one system didn't perform as well as hoped they had the other to fall back on - as well as reducing their total hardware sales. I think a lot of Nintendo fans on here owned both a Wii as well as a DS and that being true meant that Nintnedo's combined sales of these systems eventually hit over 250 million, and here we are in that other thread debating whether the Switch will even hit 100 million! So yeah, it makes sense that they'd be looking to expand into other markets.
No one said anything is being taken away from me. It's disingenuous for you to suggest that I said anything of the like. The experiences being offered in 2018 from the Switch are significantly inferior to hardcore gamers than the ones offered in 2017 on the Switch itself and compared to other platforms for core gamers. It is failing on two fronts. Not one. Even if I missed VC4, that doesn't change that for core gamers, new offerings are sparse in for the first four months of the year. Technically 5 since Xenoblade Chronicles 2 came out on December 1st. We're now 2 months in without a notable Switch release apart from Celeste.
And I'll keep repeating this until the point gets hammered home: Monster Hunter Warriors, Dragon Ball FighterZ, Shadow of The Colossus, and God of War has no real counterpoint on the Switch except for Kirby and Labo over five months of releases. 5 months without a notable Switch AAA release for core gamers is a drought. For people who didn't pick up a Wii U, this isn't applicable. But as a Wii U owner, I've already beaten all the ports. Asking me to be satisfied with such a thing is bizarre as heck.
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Dat Backpedal. Lolourghostsofwar said:
But seriously, you can't blame developers for being skeptical. Many were not on board with the Switch at first after the Wii U fiasco. But now that the Switch is a runaway success, publishers are scrambling to get content onto it. Major new games again, take time to make, so getting ports out is a good way to buy time until these new games are ready. There's also the fact to keep in mind that the Switch is a tablet, there are clear limits as to what it can and can't run, and you can't expect Nintendo to fill in missing major thrid party blank spots with their own AAA first party games. Again, that's not how game development works. It's going to be a while before we start seeing third parties in full swing with new titles. In the mean time, ports are cheap, fast, and can be easily outsourced, which gives time for third parties to succeed on the Switch, and buys time for their new project to actually be released.
And again, I find it funny how you complain about Wii U ports, yet you used two Wii U ports (Botw and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe) to prop up your argument, which shows how hypocritical you're being.
How is that Nintendo's fault you didn't get DBZ or MHW? You do realize you're comparing systems that have been out for 4 years compared to the Switch that is still in its first year? I mean come on how many third party devs has said "wow we didn't believe in the Switch and knew it would take off?"? Plenty have said that and now they have to scramble to get games on the Switch. You guys expect the sky when so many of these third party devs didn't believe in the Nintendo Switch. They'll come.
It's not Nintendo's fault. It is, However, Nintendo's problem. Missing out on the biggest third party games meaning they have little to nothing to show to people who bought a switch for games like BOTW means that don't and ms get money they could have, plus the opportunity cost to them from people who would buy it if the system had more support from third parties.
But hey, maybe it's my fault for buying in to the idea that this wouldn't be another Wii u.
Oh, and it's not a good argument that switch isn't getting games other systems are "because it's the first year". That's absurd.
It is is you're coming off the heels of a failed console that most publishers didn't want to touch after the first few months. The success of the Switch caught them by suprise, and thus publishers now have to keep the Switch in mind when making games going forward. The reason games like Monster Hunter World and Soul Calibur VI are not coming to the Switch is because these titles have been in development for 3 years, before the existence of the Switch was even confirmed.
DBZ is 95% sure to come in the next few months. The inertia is not absurd. It's as logical as it can be.
I do expect Nintendo to fill in missing major third party blanks with their own AAA games because Nintendo is the biggest publishing company in the world. I purchased the system for Nintendo AAA games. If you love ports, more power to you. No one is taking them away from you.
I've always thought the modular nature of switch meant they could really go wild with optional peripherals
But these games take time to make. So when Nintendo's next AAA release is still a few months out, they have to fill the gap with something else if third parties aren't there. No company can release a AAA title every month. Nintendo is no exception. What you're asking is incredibly unrealistic.
Also, I think the market has changed. Indie/eShop games now do an incredible job of filling the gap between AA/AAA Nintendo games or even ports/third-party releases.
Exactly. AAA or at least major AA games take at least 2-3 years to make. Thus, there needs to be smaller releases to fill in the gaps as well. This is why I still think Nintendo should be continuing to make smaller first party titles like Box Boy or Brain Age for the Switch. Either as eShop exclusives, or budget priced titles. Along with ports, they're cheap to make and generally take less development time, which makes them good schedule padding until the next big Nintendo title arrives.