Kingdom Come: Deliverance – Myth-making and Historical Accuracy

Deleted member 1589 · Mar 3, 2018

We have no intention of banning discussion of this game outright, and the views of the director can be relevant. However, it is clear that there will be no peace in these threads without tighter moderation and brighter lines. Therefore if that discussion is to happen we are laying down two ground rules:

1. Vávra's views on a multitude of subjects are offensive and racist. Defense of his views will be moderated like any other defense of racism. Discussion about Vávra as a writer or a developer is allowed, but avoid vague drive-by posts praising him for nothing in particular.

2. Buying this game does not automatically make someone a horrible person and nothing will be learned or gained by anyone if you take that stance. Do not attack other members just for buying the game or enjoying mundane aspects of the game. Do not attempt to shame them.

There is room to discuss the game as a cultural artifact with nuance and in a manner where some actual exchange of ideas is possible -- but only if the above two conditions are met. If you do not feel you can adhere to those two conditions, do not post in these threads. Be advised that moderators may have to apply stricter penalties than usual to keep the peace.

A really good read on Kingdom Come's story, and how it treats its historical setting and accuracy that goes far beyond the argument whether it was justified to omit PoC from the game.

https://unwinnable.com/2018/03/02/deliverance-myth-making-and-historical-accuracy/

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

Striking, too, is that the only gay characters are two of the game's villains, a deceitful mercenary and his nefarious Hungarian lover.

Afaik there's another gay character who lives in a monastery, just a normal side NPC I believe (didn't get that far into the game).

Dmax3901 · Mar 3, 2018

Read this earlier and it's good. Nice to see the discussion continue.

Lain · Mar 3, 2018

That was an interesting read and one that I feel helps in contextualizing some criticism about the game.

Mivey · Mar 3, 2018

Excellent piece, analysing the game on its own terms and showing the troubling political elements, hidden by a dubious claim for "historical accuracy".
No matter what one thinks of the game, I think it's important to realise that there's nothing truly objective about portrayals of the past and the views of the creator will clearly shape their work.

Deleted member 1589 · Mar 3, 2018

Yeah, article is great, very well researched and written.

I understand a lot are having fun with the game - that's fine. It would also be good if people read on the more troubling aspects of the game than readily defend it because they made it with the help of a historian.

Truant · Mar 3, 2018

I don't get the villain part. I would think having a gay villain would be good representation, but I guess maybe not in the context of the game's other issues.

Platy · Mar 3, 2018

An Alpha Male perk for having sex for the first time?

I am not exactly surprised, but I ... expected it to be less caricatural?

Truant said:
I don't get the villain part. I would think having a gay villain would be good representation, but I guess maybe not in the context of the game's other issues.

The problem is praticaly the only gay characters you need to find being villains points that one characteristic is tied to the other

Rangerx · Mar 3, 2018

Nevermind.

Deleted member 5596 · Mar 3, 2018

That was a really good article, clearly showing Vávra's views are all over the game, polluting it.

UnderNewOwnership · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
Afaik there's another gay character who lives in a monastery, just a normal side NPC I believe (didn't get that far into the game).

And that fits with the conservative view on gay people: the only "good ones" are those who repress their 'sinful', 'unnatural' desires and live as hermits.

Sei · Mar 3, 2018

Henry, and those he speaks to, see these characters as ungodly, terrifying or a threat to their existence because they don't understand them, but their impressions are mirrored by the game's story, too. Historical fiction can contextualize the viewpoints of its subjects, but every opportunity to add greater complexity or context to the game's foreigners – whether their actions were truly as bad or uniquely evil as Henry thinks – is passed over. There's no effort to explain that Cuman mercenaries would likely have been fighting in Bohemia for the same reason as any other soldier: material gain or political obligation. There's no attempt made to show the common links between the Czechs and Germans, Hungarians or Cumans, which would both humanize these characters and show the sometimes overlapping cultural and political destiny of their homelands. Like the scared, confused medieval Czech characters they encounter, the player isn't allowed to benefit from the kind of historical foresight that makes foreigners more than cartoon villains

I have to disagree with this part. Spoilers ahead.

Like he says, the Cumans are not the only enemies in this game. There's also a mixture of mercenaries, good old robbers, and a few other unidentified factions. But adding complexity to these characters is never passed over. Maybe they don't go into absolute details, but Henry is always given the chance to capture and not just kill a lot of the bad guys. He can also interrogate them and figure out the reasons for their actions. He's even given the choice to let them go, convince them to leave, or imprison some of them.

The unknown Knight you eventually figure out he was working towards the same goals as you, but he was working secretly for another powerful figure in the region, and you have the option to learn more from him and let him go. The early enemy base you attack, you have the option to infiltrate and you learn there are a mixture of local mercenaries and foreigners in the camp. You see how they interact, with Henry even noticing how the cumans are more disciplined than the locals. Some working for money, some for revenge. There's in fighting between the factions, with some not happy with what happened.

Other enemies in the game include local gangs you can also infiltrate. One robbers gang you can just talk to, and you figure out their leader is a former Lord who had his title taken away, so now he's just getting revenge. You also spend a big chunk at the beginning chasing local criminals, and you figure out their story.

Eventually you realize most the real enemies are very close, and what some of their reasons are.

Now about not understanding the Cumans in beginning scene, where they're chasing Teresa, who gets away and later saves you instead. Henry doesn't even know how to read starting out, books are just gibberish if you open them. Of course what is he going to hear from a foreign language.

I'm not saying there's no faults, there's plenty of other things, but I haven't played enough to see if the game addresses them. For one, the issue with women. Theresa saves you early on, but that's it, she's completely thrown away after a few romance side quests. The romance options are so weird and meaningless.

hydrophilic attack · Mar 3, 2018

good article

Recreating 1403 Bohemia in order to tell a story of a virtuous Czech underdog fighting negative foreign influences says something vital about what Deliverance deems important to remember. Conversations surrounding the game have rightly centered on statements made by Warhorse Co-Founder and Creative Director Daniel Vávra that, in the name of historical "accuracy," it was important that the cast not include people of color. The suspicion, given the murkiness of the historical record regarding a rural stretch of medieval Central Bohemia's demographic make-up, is not just that it's possible that non-ethnically Czech people could have been present in a "historically accurate" game, but why excluding them is so important to Deliverance's take on history.

The only reason that seems to fit is that Deliverance selects from the past what best serves an exclusionary, xenophobic vision of Czech history – one that considers ethnic and linguistic minorities a historical detriment. Far from a removed question of what did or didn't happen centuries ago, Deliverance's vision of 15th Century Bohemia suggests a continuity of history that says the Czech Republic is for ethnically Czech citizens only. This is especially unsettling in the context of the recent re-election of anti-immigrant, anti-European Union President Milos Zeman, the country's reluctance to accept Muslim refugees, and the rise of populist nationalism. These aren't uniquely Czech issues – they're only one instance of greater, depressingly prevalenttrends in European and North American politics – but they are important within the context of a Czech-developed game purporting to offer players a faithful view of Bohemian medieval history.

The question becomes, in Kingdom Come: Deliveranceand historical fiction in general: what kind of past do audiences want to remember? It's easy to look into our national heritages and find examples of values we find important to the modern day – empathy despite political division; victories in human rights; advancements in culture and science caused by the meetings of disparate populations. Centering instead on humanity's worst tendencies provides rationale for continuing them today. It's distortion by omission – by artistic and historical selection.

this is the crux of the game's problems

of course it's not terribly surprising that an alt-right troll would write nationalistic drek, but it is quite concerning how popular such drek is among gamers, whether they're aware of the implications (or even possess the intellectual capabilities to analyze the political implications of their games) or not

2112 · Mar 3, 2018

this article has some decent points, but a lot of it is reaching IMO

Henry refers to them in an early conversation as "diabolical barbarians from the East with no regard for the rules of warfare." Others call them "heathen dogs" or "savages." The player is assured, by one character, that, even though "all armies" will "pillage, rape and slaughter," it's the Cumans who "take pleasure in it."

not really surprising people in the 15th century were scared and xenophobic

and goofy montages of Henry and a priest having sex with two village girls are shown not as indications of a restrictive, misogynist society, but as good-natured jokes

so getting drunk and having sex with women is now misogynistic?

Even among the Czech characters, straight men alone are presented in a favorable light.

well yes, being gay back then wasn't accepted

Taking drugs with them, he slaughters attackers who, in Henry's vision, appear as dark-skinned warriors. Once sober again, they're revealed to actually be white woodcutters or bandits. The only interpretation that makes sense is that Henry, hallucinating, imagines the Cumans as darker than they are, though this is never addressed again.

ok this is ridiculous.

Centering instead on humanity's worst tendencies provides rationale for continuing them today.

no it doesn't.

also do we know for a fact if there were PoC in Bohemia at the time? one persons says there were and another says the opposite

Stiler · Mar 3, 2018

Reading the article, are they really trying to complain that the Cumans, who were foreign invading mercenaries under Sigismund, are treated "badly" because they are treated as the enemies and you don't get to know them?

Did they expect Henry (who doesn't speak their language) to sit down and have coffee with them and talk about their differences after they slaughtered his village? I mean I don't really get that criticism about the game. It's like complaining that the English didn't have tea with the Vikings when they first met and the Vikings pillaged and killed them.

Sigismund was the King of Hungary, even though he was the half-brother of Wenceslaus he still helped the uprising and deposed him as king and imprisoned him, ruling in his place. The game takes place during this time, where the armies were literally attacking all of the villages that opposed Sigismund and supported Wenceslaus. Skalitz was a real place and it was really attacked and burned down.

Also the women, Theresa can be saved from "that" happening or not, it's a player choice and you never "see" anything. Also she literally saves Henry from certain death by standing up to some bandits. The other main woman so far is also a helpful character, taking care of many of the wounded people and acts as a kind of nurse throughout the game (so far at least).

As far as the romances go, while it is disappointing how things "end" with them, the way they are shown through the courtship quests is fairly well done. The build up as you get to know them and actually you know...go on dates (unlike many other rpgs that don't even bother with that), it was done tastefully I thought. Just wish it was carried throughout the game and didn't end, it fells a bit weird how the relationship builds up to that and then it's just like they are treated as a regular npc and offer no new dialogue/story beats, that would have been a lot better imo.

I do admit the buff and calling it "Alpha Male" was a bit of a headscratcher to me, a buff might make a little sense (since you know, doing that does raise confidence and make people happy) but the name I can see why people have an issue with that.

I can't really comment on the lgbtq stuff, as I haven't gotten that far yet.

jesu · Mar 3, 2018

UnderNewOwnership said:
And that fits with the conservative view on gay people: the only "good ones" are those who repress their 'sinful', 'unnatural' desires and live as hermits.

How did gay people live back then?

Just_a_Mouse · Mar 3, 2018

This was a good read that sums up most of my problems with the game.

Also, just shaking my head at that "Alpha Male" perk. Why am I not surprised.

HDMF76 · Mar 3, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
good article

this is the crux of the game's problems

of course it's not terribly surprising that an alt-right troll would write nationalistic drek, but it is quite concerning how popular such drek is among gamers, whether they're aware of the implications (or even possess the intellectual capabilities to analyze the political implications of their games) or not

Largely they dont possess those capabilities or dont look at things in that way. Gaf/era is all the proof you need of that.

Laughing Banana · Mar 3, 2018

HDMF76 said:
Largely they dont possess those capabilities or dont look at things in that way. Gaf/era is all the proof you need of that.

Sheesh dude, is the 'I'm so smarter than the rest of you' attitude is really necessary?

misho8723 · Mar 3, 2018

Ok, I understand some complains.. about gay people beying only the bad guys, but what gay persons in medieval times were presented as good, if they were gay then they tried anything to hide that fact because otherwise jail was waiting for them, or death, who in medieval times was openly gay and everyone around him was like "yeah, ok, not big deal" ?.. For the lack of POC characters in the game people only throw arguments that there were for example black people in England, Spain, Portugal, Italy - well, yeah, many of them as slaves, many were pretty much maids, waiters/waitresses and butlers and those countries had ports that enabled them to trade with Asian or African countries, and really there are almost no mention of some POC in slavic countries from the medieval times, if we don't take into account invading armies).. could they include some traveling merchant from some Middle East or Near East country? They could, but they didn't needed to.. what would that add to the game? The map size in reality is very, very small and really the chance that someone would take that route to do trading is very small because it would be even very dangerous for someone from those countries to travel that long in countries that in medieval times weren't very kind to foreigners (it's still true to those countries to this day, but of course not in such a horrific manner)..

That people from the villages and cities who were attacked by invading armies, see them as basically "monsters" is suprising for someone? Romans saw the people of Britannia as "barbarians", Greeks saw invading armies of Persians and other countries as "monsters" and so on.. rather don't ask me how the Christians in Medieval Europe saw Muslims .. how can someone be suprised that people in medieval times had very different views than we have in this days? This is what is surprising for me - people forgot how people in the US treated black people 60-50 years ago? How there were cases how white people hang and burned black people not even 100 years ago? How black soldiers in WWII rather fought alongside the French that with the American divisions (and many of them even stayed in Europe after the war)?

Women in the game could have been written more interestingly, but that people could get drunk and have sex in medieval times is seen as misogynistic now? It was written as a fun scene where everyone in that scene is having a great time, so what was really misogynistic about it?
The thing about the Alpha Male buff - atleast I took it as a joke, that when you as a young boy have sex, that you feel like the king of the world, like you can do anything and nothing can stop you, that in a group of friends you are the "Alpha" because you had sex and they didn't - I mean, atleast I felt that way when I was young, apart from the group stuff :D.. nothing about it screms to me misogynistic though, just silly

I don't want to defend Vavra's views because I have problems with them too, and I don't want to ignore other's people problems with the game just because I have different views on the game.. I just wanted to present my opinions and how I see them.. this reminded me how when I was reading Bram Stoker's Dracula, which I BTW adore, I came across his descriptions of people of my nationality - Slovak - which were, not really pleasant to put it mildly, but I said to me, "yeah, different times,ok, whatever".. I'm of course not using this to defend Vavra's views, but to show how times were really, really different back in times.. but I don't like if someone uses real history and put modern views into characters..

Haze · Mar 3, 2018

This was a good write that opened my eyes a little. I have no been fond of how the game treats women as little more than objects and the undevelopment of the Cumans as simple evil foreign, colored entities bothers me. But I didn't make the connection between the game's positioning of outside powers as compromising a state's existence. I think there's definitely some parallels with the current times, especially with the West's political climate.

I can see the argument that women were treated like sub-humans during these times but the game doesn't exactly criticize it.

There's a lot for me to parse while playing this.

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

UnderNewOwnership said:
And that fits with the conservative view on gay people: the only "good ones" are those who repress their 'sinful', 'unnatural' desires and live as hermits.

Probably how it was back then huh?

His Majesty · Mar 3, 2018

None of these outsiders, from Hungarians and Germans to Cuman raiders, come off well. Deliverance's Bohemia is in turmoil because of the "foreign" Sigismund, who leaves his seat in Hungary to pillage the land with a force of even more exotic, Turkic barbarians as his cavalry. Our first glimpse of the latter sees them attempting to rape a local woman, their speech incomprehensible because it lacks the same English subtitles given to nearly every other character. The Cumans are a constant source of fear in the game. Henry refers to them in an early conversation as "diabolical barbarians from the East with no regard for the rules of warfare." Others call them "heathen dogs" or "savages." The player is assured, by one character, that, even though "all armies" will "pillage, rape and slaughter," it's the Cumans who "take pleasure in it."

That's not true. Even in the first mission there is sharp criticism from the developers towards blind nationalism, using Henry's father as a mouthpiece to scold him for attacking a minority (Deutsch the German) for having a different political opinion.

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
Probably how it was back then huh?

How is that an arguement for making the only gay characters who actually act on their desires be villians? That's not how it was back then, how it was, was they treated gay people horribly. That didn't actually make the people who were gay bad.

Tarot Deck · Mar 3, 2018

His Majesty said:
That's not true. Even in the first mission there is sharp criticism from the developers towards blind nationalism, using Henry's father as a mouthpiece to scold him for attacking a minority (Deutsch the German) for having a different political opinion.

A lot of people who criticize the game "on its own merits" already have they opinion shaped before, so it's hardly neutral

Gulgan Shulgan · Mar 3, 2018

(Accidental mobile post)

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
How is that an arguement for making the only gay characters who actually act on their desires be villians? That's not how it was back then, how it was, was they treated gay people horribly. That didn't actually make the people who were gay bad.

Treating people horribly tends to also make them bad?

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
Treating people horribly tends to also make them bad?

Wait, is your arguement literally that since gay people were treated badly back then, it would make them bad, therefore it's historically accurate to cast them as villians? I really don't know how to respond to that.

Thorrgal · Mar 3, 2018

The article is a good example of having a conclusion decided before hand and cherry picking arguments to reach that conclusion, imo

mutantmagnet · Mar 3, 2018

misho8723 said:
Ok, I understand some complains.. about gay people beying only the bad guys, but what gay persons in medieval times were presented as good, if they were gay then they tried anything to hide that fact because otherwise jail was waiting for them, or death, who in medieval times was openly gay and everyone around him was like "yeah, ok, not big deal" ?.. For the lack of POC characters in the game people only throw arguments that there were for example black people in England, Spain, Portugal, Italy - well, yeah, many of them as slaves, many were pretty much maids, waiters/waitresses and butlers and those countries had ports that enabled them to trade with Asian or African countries, and really there are almost no mention of some POC in slavic countries from the medieval times, if we don't take into account invading armies).. could they include some traveling merchant from some Middle East or Near East country? They could, but they didn't needed to.. what would that add to the game? The map size in reality is very, very small and really the chance that someone would take that route to do trading is very small because it would be even very dangerous for someone from those countries to travel that long in countries that in medieval times weren't very kind to foreigners (it's still true to those countries to this day, but of course not in such a horrific manner)..

That people from the villages and cities who were attacked by invading armies, see them as basically "monsters" is suprising for someone? Romans saw the people of Britannia as "barbarians", Greeks saw invading armies of Persians and other countries as "monsters" and so on.. rather don't ask me how the Christians in Medieval Europe saw Muslims .. how can someone be suprised that people in medieval times had very different views than we have in this days? This is what is surprising for me - people forgot how people in the US treated black people 60-50 years ago? How there were cases how white people hang and burned black people not even 100 years ago? How black soldiers in WWII rather fought alongside the French that with the American divisions (and many of them even stayed in Europe after the war)?

Women in the game could have been written more interestingly, but that people could get drunk and have sex in medieval times is seen as misogynistic now? It was written as a fun scene where everyone in that scene is having a great time, so what was really misogynistic about it?
The thing about the Alpha Male buff - atleast I took it as a joke, that when you as a young boy have sex, that you feel like the king of the world, like you can do anything and nothing can stop you, that in a group of friends you are the "Alpha" because you had sex and they didn't - I mean, atleast I felt that way when I was young, apart from the group stuff :D.. nothing about it screms to me misogynistic though, just silly

I don't want to defend Vavra's views because I have problems with them too, and I don't want to ignore other's people problems with the game just because I have different views on the game.. I just wanted to present my opinions and how I see them.. this reminded me how when I was reading Bram Stoker's Dracula, which I BTW adore, I came across his descriptions of people of my nationality - Slovak - which were, not really pleasant to put it mildly, but I said to me, "yeah, different times,ok, whatever".. I'm of course not using this to defend Vavra's views, but to show how times were really, really different back in times.. but I don't like if someone uses real history and put modern views into characters..

You aren't presenting simply an opinion.

You're selectively cherry picking trying to discredit the article while giving zero effort in explaining what issues you have with the game 's historical accuracy.

At least you're well more spoken than 2112.

The game is littered with mysoginy with the nadir example being Henry not caring to comment about his mother's death.

The author's weakest example doesn't invalidate the rest.

No shit gay people had to be a hiding. But being gay doesn't mean you're more likely to also be a douche bag. This game simply follows the tradition of way too many examples of movies and books where obviously gay characters are also bad guys in pre industrial settings.

The introduction of the Cumins I feel was handled well in making them look and sound as sinister as possible and that is clearly the goal of Vavra. I am interested in knowing more about the player's ability to capture and interrogate before fully weighing in on this.

His Majesty · Mar 3, 2018

Tarot Deck said:
A lot of people who criticize the game "on its own merits" already have they opinion shaped before, so it's hardly neutral

There are some points I agree with, e.g. the amount of interesting female NPC's is fairly limited but overall this article is a bit reaching, yeah.

There's no effort to explain that Cuman mercenaries would likely have been fighting in Bohemia for the same reason as any other soldier: material gain or political obligation.

It's made very clear in the game by several NPC's that Sigismund hired the Cumans because they are much cheaper than Hungarian knights and that part of their wages are paid out in loot. This is also the reason Sigismund attacks Skalitz: the town has a silver mine.

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
Wait, is your arguement literally that since gay people were treated badly back then, it would make them bad, therefore it's historically accurate to cast them as villians? I really don't know how to respond to that.

No? As I said, there's a gay character who lives in a monastery and isn't a villain.

I also don't think 'villains' in this game (the bigger ones) are traditional villains. It's just politics.

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
No? As I said, there's a gay character who lives in a monastery and isn't a villain.

Yeah, the character who would be chaste is seen as good, and the ones that aren't are portrayed as bad. The thing is there is a difference between the people of the period thinking that gay people were that way and the game actually portraying them as that way. How people thought people were isn't historically accurate as what they actually were. People back then used to think a lot of women were witches, doesn't mean they were actually witches.

Thorrgal · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
No? As I said, there's a gay character who lives in a monastery and isn't a villain.

I also don't think 'villains' in this game (the bigger ones) are traditional villains. It's just politics.

Exactly. Even the 2 Kings (Wenceslaus and Maximilian) have good and bad traits. Not a black and white, good guys vs bad guys kindbof story

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
Yeah, the character who would be chaste is seen as good, and the ones that aren't are portrayed as bad. The thing is there is a difference between the people of the period thinking that gay people were that way and the game actually portraying them as that way. How people thought people were isn't historically accurate as what they actually were. People back then used to think a lot of women were witches, doesn't mean they were actually witches.

The game actually has a quest about witches which you can resolve in... different ways, or so to say.

J3wB0y_072 · Mar 3, 2018

History is told by the biased view of the winners. Here in Brazil we start to learn out history from the 1500's, just after the white man set foot in the lands. There's thousands of years of native population history ignored.
I wonder how many homosexual or poc are represented in a favorable light to society or important position in our history textbooks...

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Calibro said:
The game actually has a quest about witches which you can resolve in... different ways, or so to say.

Is that the one in the article were the "witches" think you are satan and are willing to have sex with you cus they think it will kill the Cumans nearby? And then you take drugs and "see" dark skinned warriors who you kill which turn out to be woodcutters? Sounds really historically accuarate/s

Calibro · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
Is that the one in the article were the "witches" think you are satan and are willing to have sex with you cus they think it will kill the Cumans nearby? And then you take drugs and "see" dark skinned warriors who you kill which turn out to be woodcutters? Sounds really historically accuarate/s

They think it will bring back their loved ones who are dead too, but yeah. You kill cumans, probably because they are Henry's n1 villains and Henry is on drugs. Don't see anything historically inaccurate tbh, drugs existed back then, it's just a silly mission like in gtav when Michael gets fucked up and shoots aliens.

I was mostly referring to the game not portraying these women as evil witches, just some helpless widows trying to somehow cope with the war.

Tarot Deck · Mar 3, 2018

J3wB0y_072 said:
History is told by the biased view of the winners. Here in Brazil we start to learn out history from the 1500's, just after the white man set foot in the lands. There's thousands of years of native population history ignored.
I wonder how many homosexual or poc are represented in a favorable light to society or important position in our history textbooks...

It's not that it's ignored, but there isn't any recorded data. Also 99% were wiped.

And times change, what was social acceptable before it is not now. Aristotle was a pederast and this is not acceptable today, at all.

KCD is probably much tamer than how it really was.

Thorrgal · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
Is that the one in the article were the "witches" think you are satan and are willing to have sex with you cus they think it will kill the Cumans nearby? And then you take drugs and "see" dark skinned warriors who you kill which turn out to be woodcutters? Sounds really historically accuarate/s

It actually is. The use of hallucinogenic mushrooms thorough history in Europe has been extensively documented (Amanita Muscaria, Psilocybes) ,etc.

People tended to see many things, specially what they feared most (the devil, which they thought it was real, is a recurrent theme).

hydrophilic attack · Mar 3, 2018

His Majesty said:
It's made very clear in the game by several NPC's that Sigismund hired the Cumans because they are much cheaper than Hungarian knights and that part of their wages are paid out in loot. This is also the reason Sigismund attacks Skalitz: the town has a silver mine.

I'm not sure how that is much better? So the scary brown foreigners who come to the country because of how much they love to rape and loot are hired because they're much cheaper than more honorable, local labour?

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Thorrgal said:
It actually is. The use of hallucinogenic mushrooms thorough history in Europe has been extensively documented (Amanita Muscaria, Psilocybes) ,etc.

People tended to see many things, specially what they feared most (the devil, which they thought it was real, is a recurrent theme).

It wasn't the drug part I had an issue with.

Thorrgal · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
It wasn't the drug part I had an issue with.

What part wasn't historically accurate then? You actually said "Sounds really historically accuarate/s"

What part of all the things you wrote doesn't " sound really historically accuarate/s"?

Cap G · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
It wasn't the drug part I had an issue with.

...Do you think attempts at humor delegitimize the game's veneer of historical accuracy?

RoninStrife · Mar 3, 2018

Even if I didnt know anything Daniel Vavra said up and till its release, reading the article shows a clear bias in the game by the developers, in a nutshell, illustrates their worldview.

rras1994 · Mar 3, 2018

Thorrgal said:
What part wasn't historically accurate then? You actually said "Sounds really historically accuarate/s"

What part of all the things you wrote doesn't " sound really historically accuarate/s"?

Cap G said:
...Do you think attempts at humor delegitimize the game's veneer of historical accuracy?

I think having "witches" seeing the protag as Satan and therefore they sleep with him as a ritual, sounds like it was just made as a power fantasy to be honest. We are talking about an era were woman could be burned alive for even a small hint of witchcrafty, if you are going to include witchcraft why did it have to involve women sleeping with the protag?

Soony Xbone Uhh · Mar 3, 2018

For people who rather watch than read

WrenchNinja · Mar 3, 2018

Henry refers to them in an early conversation as "diabolical barbarians from the East with no regard for the rules of warfare." Others call them "heathen dogs" or "savages." The player is assured, by one character, that, even though "all armies" will "pillage, rape and slaughter," it's the Cumans who "take pleasure in it."

Boy this game sure sounds like it was made in good faith

Thorrgal · Mar 3, 2018

rras1994 said:
I think having "witches" seeing the protag as Satan and therefore they sleep with him as a ritual, sounds like it was just made as a power fantasy to be honest. We are talking about an era were woman could be burned alive for even a small hint of witchcrafty, if you are going to include witchcraft why did it have to involve women sleeping with the protag?

So now is not a case of the game being historically accurate or not, but being a "power fantasy" and yiu have issues with the women there wanting to have sex with the protagonist? As you realize those are 2 different arguments altogether.

Cap G · Mar 3, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
Boy this game sure sounds like it was made in good faith

It doesn't, as it feels overly kind.

Do you think people in 1400 would have simply stopped at calling them heathen dogs and animals? They surely did not. People back then were monstrous in their limited worldview. Hell, that's how people talk about foreigners today.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance – Myth-making and Historical Accuracy

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