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DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
Also some people in here didn't enjoy the ending... sorry if i ask, but you know between other games and real life i have to make sure my time and money is well invested.

The thing with the ending is it feels kinda like a cliffhanger or a setup to a sequel. If you're the type that wants full closure of the story, then I can see why you might be disappointed. Personally, I didn't mind too much, as the rest of the game was rather well written and acted with some excellent cinematics.
 

Staf

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,751
Gothenburg, Sweden
I love RPGs and i've been meaning to give this a try for a while now. It seems fairly beloved. Just have to finish Red dead redemption 2 first (might take a while lol) before giving it a try.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,127
UK
It's a very good game, but I would say not a very good RPG, I think it's much closer to a hybrid of immersive sim and RPG.

Why I say this is simply because the game does not go full out with its RPG design. The major limiting factor is the fact that you play Henry, a character with an established history and personality. This can be very conflicting in RPG design, which I experienced when playing Henry one way, and the game because it has to conform to Henry's history and personality, completely breaks the roleplaying of a RPG - a RPG isn't simply stats and gear.

For example the game has mechanics for thieving, which is a lot of fun, but even very early in the game there's a quest where you are tasked to steal something (I can't remember what it is now exactly), and then Henry responds to the other person saying he's no thief... yet I was playing Henry and intentionally stealing prior to this because I found it fun, I wanted to roleplay as a Thief, and it was a good way to make money. In a good RPG this disconnection does not occur, in fact it would take advantage of how you are roleplaying, giving you dialogue and choices of thieving/being bad, e.g in a game like Fallout: New Vegas. Not to say this is a constant problem in KC:D, but it occurs frequently to be noticeable and bother me.

Again something you experience earlier is with how you pillage corpses for items/money (of your own volition), and then there is a quest where you have to go pillage a corpse, and Henry responds disgustingly that he would never do such a thing... this is a major problem I have with games that try to be RPGs but use established characters with a personality, because quests and dialogue have to conform to that personality, you can't do it the way you want like in a RPG like F:NV or whatever. In F:NV I get to decide the character, the game uses mechanics to allow me to play that way and make dialogue choices appropriately, and it does ability score checks to ensure this.

Nonetheless, from an immersive sim point of view I think it's fantastic with all of its game mechanics and world design, and it blends well with what RPG mechanics do exist, but to me I don't think I can say it's a good RPG because it misses the part of roleplaying a character you want. It gives you just enough player agency between an immersive sim and a RPG, but not enough to be a full on RPG (again, I can't actually *be* a thief even if the mechanics exist, because Henry is written not to be a thief, so his personality, things he says completely break with that). Props to how well the landscape is captured and the scale, of course it's based on the historical region, and a lot of that part of Europe that extends in Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, etc looks identical with the nuanced variations in hills and plains, how the landscape looks is probably the most realistic I have ever seen in a game and it feels so relatable because it's exactly what you see when you travel the country side.



The game does a bad job of introducing its combat and 90% of it can't be experienced early in the game, I didn't like it at first at all, but it becomes really nuanced with so much depth the more you play.
So there's a lot of ludonarrative dissonance?
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
I'm pretty pleasently surprised how there seems to be hardly any quests so far that are about going somewhere to kill people.
 

Martinski

Member
Jan 15, 2019
8,420
Göteborg
I want to replay this game soon with all improvements etc. played it last year at release and many parts of the game were a buggy mess then. Still beat it somehow...
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
I quit after the lockpicking mess it was on pc with a controller. I should jump back in probably, it is fixed i think?
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
This thread is basically case in point for why the industry as a whole refuses to do even the bare minimum to crack down on the systematic hate in "Gaming Culture."
 

Arulan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
I want to replay this game soon with all improvements etc. played it last year at release and many parts of the game were a buggy mess then. Still beat it somehow...

The final DLC -- A Woman's Lot should be releasing around May. As part of a free update they're also including the dog companion, of which I heard recently we'll be able to take hunting. That would be a good time to start again.
 

Taker34

QA Tester
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,122
building stone people
Bought this one used for obvious reasons and I really liked the game overall. Now to me it seems funny how the game is historically and gameplay-wise inaccurate with plenty of selective things like the protagonists father (without going into spoilers; it doesn't make any sense), Italian clothing & armour in Bohemia?, perks which let you wait for weeks without starving etc.

Aside from that, this must be one of the buggiest titles I ever came across and I've played every modern Bethesda RPG. Sometimes it feels like everything is held together by duct tape and breaks the moment you're being too liberal with quick button presses. I achieved the "complete all quests" trophy on PlayStation, which is an almost impossible task considering the amount of times quests can't be completed due to glitches. I had to use creative small exploits in order to finish broken quests in another way on a several occasions. Even the combat can be exploited by hugging an opponent and bashing them immediately afterwards. It really could've been an amazing game if it wasn't for the obscene amounts of glitches and bugs. After all it has some stunning visuals and refreshing gameplay. It reminds me of a medieval ArmA sometimes.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
So there's a lot of ludonarrative dissonance?
There can be some. The game marries two RPG approaches:

- New Vegas (open quest design, you can kill nearly everyone, you can pickpocket, sneak, loot houses)
- Witcher 3 (game has pre-set protagonist with his own personality which you can influence but not completely redefine, e.g. you cannot kill civilians)

And the game is written more for the kind of Henry who isn't asshole.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,565
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
So there's a lot of ludonarrative dissonance?
Yeah I suppose it can be summarised that way. Very good RPGs tend to have very little of this as the game mechanics give you control to drive the narrative of the type of character you want to play/roleplay as, like in FNV which I don't believe has any ludonarrative disonnanc3 because I get to decide how my character is in absolute in a fully fledged RPG.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
The longer I'm removed from the game, I appreciate the
Monastery
questline more & more. It's the least enjoyable part of the experience, by far, but that's the point, and I'm glad they went for it.

That's precisely my thought on it. I think the quest was kind of frustrating the first time I did it but looking back on it I'm really amazed by it. You're right it's meant to be slow because you're living as an undercover monk.

This critique specifically talks about the monastery quest at this time stamp:



Yeah I suppose it can be summarised that way. Very good RPGs tend to have very little of this as the game mechanics give you control to drive the narrative of the type of character you want to play/roleplay as, like in FNV which I don't believe has any ludonarrative disonnanc3 because I get to decide how my character is in absolute in a fully fledged RPG.

I think you're being nitpicky because the game does give you free reign to be as much of a thief as you want (with a lot of quests related to it and some well developed lockpicking and pickpocketing mechanics), as virtuous as you want, as much of a mass murderer as altruistic as you want (pretty sure you can avoid killing most NPCs if you want to, I think you only have to kill one), whatever. I don't think a couple throwaway lines changes that.
 
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Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,374
Thank you guys.
One last thing that bothers me are some people here in this thread critizicing the balance in economy and progression. At the beginning it's very hard and punishing and after a while you become rich and powerful just to steamroll everything in the game. Heard of a balance patch that ironed out this progression problem. Is it better now?
Also some people in here didn't enjoy the ending... sorry if i ask, but you know between other games and real life i have to make sure my time and money is well invested.
I'm a sucker for immersive, good written worlds, that's why i'm interested in this game.
you'll probably end up loving the game if that's what you like.
 

Quiksaver

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,022
Almost a year now, still stuck in the
monastery
on the other hand, my grasp of latin has improved
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
An amazingly good medieval RPG that really puts a smile on anyone's dial looking for mount and blade esque combat. I really must reinstall it for the DLC, and to actually just keep playing in general. Even the fist fights were so much fun.
 

LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
How is it on consoles?

I've avoided it because of the gamer gate bs, but I can get a used copy pretty cheap. Just wondering if it's worth the time on PS4.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,781
I think it had a few interesting ideas and I enjoyed my time with it, especially the beginning which reminded me of gothic and other eurojank classics, I loved breaking into every house in town and steal everything.
However I did not finish the game because at the end it overwhelmed me with stupid generic fetch quests and I simply no longer had the patience to do it.
 

butman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,024
The dialogs and graphics are great. The rest is jank level.

Besides that it's another of those unfulfilled promises.

 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
Concerning Vavra, there's a whole other discussion on the views displayed throughout the game's story I don't really have time to go into now, but let's just say it's a mixed bag in terms of execution that probably betrays influence from him and other people who led the game.

That's precisely my thought on it. I think the quest was kind of frustrating the first time I did it but looking back on it I'm really amazed by it. You're right it's meant to be slow because you're living as an undercover monk.

This critique specifically talks about the monastery quest at this time stamp:



I don't know if I can watch the video but I felt kinda the same. The quest didn't go flawlessly for me but I like the fact that they tried it anyway. That's how I feel about the game in general really, and about Eurojank games overall. Maybe it turned out to be a janky mess, but the fact that they tried makes it interesting enough to play.

I actually like how the RPG mechanics intersected with the monastery quest too. Practicing things like reading and alchemy improves those stats, so it makes sense that spending a lot of time in a monastery would boost those stats.
 

jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
702
Why is he signal boosting nazis and spreading their propaganda then?

Where and how was he "signal boosting nazis and spreading their propaganda"? Do you mean the Burzum T-shirts he was wearing? Well, why in that case every game made e.g. after Lovecraft works or inspired by them is not branded as "signal boosting nazis" here as intensely? I mean that Vikernes is a nazi piece of shit without a doubt, but Lovecraft was an even worse nazi piece of shit. Yet somehow game designers who use Lovecraft's works are called out here quite rarely.

What I'm trying to say is that Vávra might just like the music without associating its creator's views with it, just like the people who created e.g. the Call of Cthulhu game might just like some of Lovecraft's work without associating his other views with it. That is, Vávra wearing a Burzum T-shirt is certainly not good, but it doesn't make him a nazi himself straight away, just like creators of the Call of Cthulhu game probably aren't nazis.

I never claimed that he did.
What I meant is that while Vávra is the creative director of the game, the game was still made by a large team, and Vávra's work corresponds to a quite small percentage of the total work on the game. So even if you think that "Vávra is a nazi" it's unfair to all the other devs on the team (who have done the vast majority of the actual work on the game) to say that this game was "made by nazis". Also note that if you're a Czech game developer and you want to work on an RPG, working at Warhorse is your only option. So it's not like you can easily leave and find a job you enjoy (in case if you enjoy working on RPGs) at another company if you're working at Warhorse and disagree with Vávra's assholeness.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Vavra defense force here is so tired

one argument says: other people were involved in making this game! no shit - but let's say today's the day shitheel tucker carlson finally gets held to task (godforbid), not for his white nationalism but his overt misogyny. surely, others on his crew would lose their jobs as well - would any of you argue that he should then be left alone, as a "job creator", much less that you should support him as such? of course you wouldn't.

now the historically problematic mess that is lovecraft - a man dead nearly a century now - is dragged in on some weird whataboutism...as if we haven't had that conversation in good faith here prior, much less that supporting one shitty person means we should somehow support other, currently living ones

some of us watched the hate campaign that was gamergate go down live & saw swaths of stand-for-nothing-but-crying-about-SJW's easily absorbed into alt-right fuckery, and decided that was a poor thing and should not be enabled (as if the harassment campaigns that both the industry & "game culture" largely stayed silent on weren't enough). as was said to me earlier in the thread, the sales on this game show a large number of folks don't mind. that's far from surprising.

but what does contorting oneself to rationalize this garbageman do for some of y'all? just say you're not that bothered by bigotry & misogyny and keep it moving, because you're not fooling anyone.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Vavra defense force here is so tired

one argument says: other people were involved in making this game! no shit - but let's say today's the day shitheel tucker carlson finally gets held to task (godforbid), not for his white nationalism but his overt misogyny. surely, others on his crew would lose their jobs as well - would any of you argue that he should then be left alone, as a "job creator", much less that you should support him as such? of course you wouldn't.

now the historically problematic mess that is lovecraft - a man dead nearly a century now - is dragged in on some weird whataboutism...as if we haven't had that conversation in good faith here prior, much less that supporting one shitty person means we should somehow support other, currently living ones

some of us watched the hate campaign that was gamergate go down live & saw swaths of stand-for-nothing-but-crying-about-SJW's easily absorbed into alt-right fuckery, and decided that was a poor thing and should not be enabled (as if the harassment campaigns that both the industry & "game culture" largely stayed silent on weren't enough). as was said to me earlier in the thread, the sales on this game show a large number of folks don't mind. that's far from surprising.

but what does contorting oneself to rationalize this garbageman do for some of y'all? just say you're not that bothered by bigotry & misogyny and keep it moving, because you're not fooling anyone.

That last statement feels like a bit of an attack on anyone who has bought or played this game.

Daniel Vavra at the very least is an edgy idiot that is completely irresponsible with some of the groups he associates with, at worst he's a racist bigot. With that said, as someone who has over 200 hours in this game and I feel like I have a pretty good eyes and ears in spotting bad alt-right behavior, I have not noticed anything overt in the game. There are a couple things I find problematic but there is also at least a couple things that I think are tackled with surprising depth and care.

I'd say it's pretty hard to have moral consumption under Capitalism. If I buy Nike's, the CEO may not tweet pepe the frog or Trump memes but he enables a system that exploits third world labor that has an interest in keeping them poor all so he can increase his profit margin. I mean what do you think is more damaging? A person is free to boycott any company they want to of course but if Daniel Vavra is not, at least in my estimation, putting out overtly alt light or alt right ideas, or dog whistles of the sort in his game then if he's doing harm it would be on something like Twitter and it would be up to them to determine how to deal with his behavior.
 

Onebadlion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,189
I loved it. It's a bit janky at times, but it's also different to most other RPGs and I appreciate that. Its also a very good looking game on PC.

I'd definitely be up for a sequel.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
So, not a Nazi, he just follows Neo-Nazis on Twitter for laughs.

Gotcha.

right? it's so transparent

That last statement feels like a bit of an attack on anyone who has bought or played this game.

that very paragraph specifically calls out the defense force for dude, but as your post shows, a hit dog will holler

your ability to enjoy his work & find it only mildly problematic does nothing to counter the reasons why folks shouldn't support trash like him

further, you're absolutely gonna have to miss me with the "no ethical consumption in capitalism" meme - there's specific context/history here, none of which should prohibit anyone from questioning the CEO of nestle/etc

regarding harm though: do you believe gg created harm, even before transitioning into the alt-right? because varva is a supporter/proponent of that. I'm a lot less concerned with which shitty nazi band he supports, though it factors in with who he follows & his own words to paint a picture plainly obvious to anyone not actively pretending otherwise
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
right? it's so transparent



that very paragraph specifically calls out the defense force for dude, but as your post shows, a hit dog will holler

your ability to enjoy his work & find it only mildly problematic does nothing to counter the reasons why folks shouldn't support trash like him

further, you're absolutely gonna have to miss me with the "no ethical consumption in capitalism" meme - there's specific context/history here, none of which should prohibit anyone from questioning the CEO of nestle/etc

regarding harm though: do you believe gg created harm, even before transitioning into the alt-right? because varva is a supporter/proponent of that. I'm a lot less concerned with which shitty nazi band he supports, though it factors in with who he follows & his own words to paint a picture plainly obvious to anyone not actively pretending otherwise

It's not "a meme" and I find it strange that you call it that, I could have sworn that in another thread you said you belonged to the DSA? The context and history is that he supported GG and complains about virtue signaling and the like. Anyone has the right to boycott him if they like, his twitter is toxic as hell, but I don't think you should be implying that people who buy Kingdom Come: Deliverance or enjoy the game are indifferent to bigotry especially when it's pretty agnostic towards those issues considering it both has a couple questionable things in it while also a couple things that show insight.

Also, of course GG was harmful, it started as an effort to slander a woman under the guise of ethics in journalism, probably a lot of overlap with the incel crowd.
 

Nephilim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,275
Warhorse should be proud of you OT, just bought the special edition of Kingdom Come: Deliverance. This thread made me do it so hopefully this game delivers.
I'm sure i'm going to enjoy it:)
 

Council Pop

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,328
Vavra defense force here is so tired

one argument says: other people were involved in making this game! no shit - but let's say today's the day shitheel tucker carlson finally gets held to task (godforbid), not for his white nationalism but his overt misogyny. surely, others on his crew would lose their jobs as well - would any of you argue that he should then be left alone, as a "job creator", much less that you should support him as such? of course you wouldn't.

now the historically problematic mess that is lovecraft - a man dead nearly a century now - is dragged in on some weird whataboutism...as if we haven't had that conversation in good faith here prior, much less that supporting one shitty person means we should somehow support other, currently living ones

some of us watched the hate campaign that was gamergate go down live & saw swaths of stand-for-nothing-but-crying-about-SJW's easily absorbed into alt-right fuckery, and decided that was a poor thing and should not be enabled (as if the harassment campaigns that both the industry & "game culture" largely stayed silent on weren't enough). as was said to me earlier in the thread, the sales on this game show a large number of folks don't mind. that's far from surprising.

but what does contorting oneself to rationalize this garbageman do for some of y'all? just say you're not that bothered by bigotry & misogyny and keep it moving, because you're not fooling anyone.

Most people here aren't defending Vavra. They're simply defending their right to play the game and enjoy it and not have to constantly apologise for themselves, which is fair enough really.

The game isn't some nazi propaganda product, it doesn't contain overt right wing messages, in fact it contains far fewer right wing messages than many militaristic, imperialist American games. Vavra has awful views, yep. But 15 years ago, people with Vavra's views dominated video games, both development and journalism. The amount of progressive voices was miniscule. But do you really think all those old school reactionaries have just left the industry, or changed their views? Of course not, they just keep quiet. The political situation is very, very different in Czechia, and American-style 'political correctness' (for want of a better term) doesn't have the same power, so people who hold problematic political views are much more likely to just state them.

But basically, video games are historically one of the most right wing art forms ever. If you think it's your moral mission not to consume any art made by problematic people, I would suggest that you don't play any games made by studios which existed pre-Gamergate, any games made in countries with lax labour laws, any games by studios which have shareholders etc etc. And no, I don't recognise the difference between people who say things offensive towards minority groups, and people who exploit workers, force crunch, pay them terribly. It's crude and offensive when people suggest that one is worse than the other.

But for me, I'm secure enough in my political views, and my understanding of how right wing ideology functions, that I really don't have any issues at all in consuming art made by problematic people. Metropolis is one of my favourite films after all, and that was written by someone who was a Nazi in the most literal sense- she actually worked for Hitler.

Also, like, life in general is pretty miserable, I'm not going to make life worse for myself by removing things I enjoy simply because the people who made it have said or done offensive things. Imagine if I never watched another episode of Father Ted because the writer is a massive transphobe. My life would be significantly worse, and for what? It has no practical benefit to anyone.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,681
What's been holding me back is the game breaking bugs I read about. Do they still exist? Was reading about them and they seemed quite nasty.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,865
Very immersive and ambitious game with a load of jank and bugs that is overshadowed by its dodgy creator and occasionally macho script.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,432
Great game with interesting quests. Highly recommend it, feel sorry for people who got caught up in drama back then and skipped it altogether.
 

trippyturtle

Member
Mar 11, 2019
70
Very immersive game to me. The alchemy station was pretty cool, and some of its quests in particular were very unique.

I actually enjoyed breaking into the monastery, slowly blending in, and figuring out my target's identity while planning my escape route.
 

Orso

Member
Oct 28, 2017
628
I played the game constantly when it was first released. There were a couple of times where I had to go back to an earlier save because of bugs but it was worth it for such a unique experience. There was so much that was different from traditional first person rpg's and the setting was just what it wanted from a game.

For some reason I never ended up finishing it though. Think I got burned out from playing it so much. I need to go back and see what it's like now, really.
 
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