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Kiseki/Trails Community |OT| Familiar faces~, Zemurian places—SPOILER TAGS OR DIE!

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Korigama

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,514
People are really quick to get mad and decry others for being "toxic" and engaging in "gatekeeping" lately for simply telling them that they would be lost/have no real emotional connection to anything by skipping as far ahead as possible.

EDIT: Really, it's not like the games are going anywhere, and it takes forever for new ones to get localized anyway, so such a compulsion to rush through them or skip games altogether as though familiarizing with the series was a chore makes no sense. Seems like little more than FOMO to me.
 
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Deleted member 26768

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1,765
Korigama said:
People are really quick to get mad and decry others for being "toxic" and engaging in "gatekeeping" lately for simply telling them that they would be lost/have no real emotional connection to anything by skipping as far ahead as possible.

EDIT: Really, it's not like the games are going anywhere, and it takes forever for new ones to get localized anyway, so such a compulsion to rush through them or skip games altogether as though familiarizing with the series was a chore makes no sense. Seems like little more than FOMO to me.
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you're talking aout a platform that is backed by people that have been waiting their entire life for a new release, every single month
 
Basileus777

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,203
New Jersey
Korigama said:
People are really quick to get mad and decry others for being "toxic" and engaging in "gatekeeping" lately for simply telling them that they would be lost/have no real emotional connection to anything by skipping as far ahead as possible.

EDIT: Really, it's not like the games are going anywhere, and it takes forever for new ones to get localized anyway, so such a compulsion to rush through them or skip games altogether as though familiarizing with the series was a chore makes no sense. Seems like little more than FOMO to me.
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Nah, people have given a lot of bad advice about the order you need to play this series. And I've seen it scare off a lot of people from even playing any of these games.
 
Arcana Wiz

Arcana Wiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
817
Korigama said:
People are really quick to get mad and decry others for being "toxic" and engaging in "gatekeeping" lately for simply telling them that they would be lost/have no real emotional connection to anything by skipping as far ahead as possible.

EDIT: Really, it's not like the games are going anywhere, and it takes forever for new ones to get localized anyway, so such a compulsion to rush through them or skip games altogether as though familiarizing with the series was a chore makes no sense. Seems like little more than FOMO to me.
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But it's kinda gatekeeping (even if it's with good intentions) saying that everyone HAVE to play every game to enjoy a new one. Saying you have to play CS1 and CS2? This is good advice. Saying you have to play 7 games that are +60 hours just to enjoy the new one just scares people.

Actually, I think spending +400 hours to enter a new series is something very few people can do.

I think the best stance is explain that every game is connected, explain that CS3 closes plot points that are present in Zero+Ao AND Sky series and the experience is enchanced by playing the previous games. BUT new fans can start with CS1 and enjoy the series, even more if they are scared of having to play 7 games, starting with one released almost 20 years ago.

But I always say that if they enjoy CS they should check Sky series later because Estelle is the best.
 
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Erpy

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
2,997
Most people have already given up on trying to get people to play all 7 games before CS3, but at this point even telling folks "start with CS1 and CS2" is considered gatekeeping because those two games can also easily reach 120 or more hours combined.
 
Mivey

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
FOMO in Trails games is literally the weirdest thing to me. I know that "the journey is the goal" is a cliche, but if you don't wholeheartedly agree with that in this context, then I really don't understand why you even bother playing Trails games.
So you can use some spoiler tags on this thread?
 

Deleted member 26768

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i too wish to rush into the eight game of a large series that everyone touts as the most fleshed out narrative structure in gaming, it toally makes sense for me, jumping into that eight game foregoing a strong interweaved narrative of arcs that everyone sells as it's major draw
 
Thuddert

Thuddert

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Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
If all people want is to play the shiny next thing then they can start with cs4 for all that matters.

It's always possible. However just because you could doesn't mean you should.
 
Kromeo

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,871
Gatekeeping has been such a nonsense buzzword around here for a while now, but whatever, maybe I just don't spend enough time on social media

All people were doing was giving advice based on having played the games anyway
 
Lozange

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,100
What's Cold Steel 3 got that Cold Steel 1 doesn't. Serious question. I guess the character models are better, as are the animations, but they're not that great regardless. That being said, for sake of argument let's call CS3 the prettiest game ever made and CS1 uglier than the ugliest PS1 game.

...So what. Are people really so shallow that this is all they care about? Otherwise, the combat system, whilst improved in a few areas, is pretty similar. You clearly don't care about the story if you're that desperate to start half way through, you don't open up a book at chapter 25 and read from there. The consensus seems to be that the music in CS1 is better overall. CS3 is also more expensive at the moment.

EDIT: CS1 is also shorter, for all those people who claim they don't have time for JRPGs.

I'm all for saying "if you don't care about X, you can start here", but why would you start with CS3. There's literally no reason to. Unless...you only own a switch, I guess? And not a ps4, or a potato pc, or a vita, or a ps3, or heck even a psp for the first two sky games.
And even then I would urge people to watch a playthrough on YouTube or something of the previous games. That's something anyone who's in a position to buy and play CS3 should theoretically be able to do.
 
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Kromeo

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,871
Lozange said:
What's Cold Steel 3 got that Cold Steel 1 doesn't. Serious question. I guess the character models are better, as are the animations, but they're not that great regardless. That being said, for sake of argument let's call CS3 the prettiest game ever made and CS1 uglier than the ugliest PS1 game.

...So what. Are people really so shallow that this is all they care about? Otherwise, the combat system, whilst improved in a few areas, is pretty similar. You clearly don't care about the story if you're that desperate to start half way through, you don't open up a book at chapter 25 and read from there. The consensus seems to be that the music in CS1 is better overall. CS3 is also more expensive at the moment.

EDIT: CS1 is also shorter, for all those people who claim they don't have time for JRPGs.

I'm all for saying "if you don't care about X, you can start here", but why would you start with CS3. There's literally no reason to. Unless...you only own a switch, I guess? And not a ps4, or a potato pc, or a vita, or a ps3, or heck even a psp for the first two sky games.
And even then I would urge people to watch a playthrough on YouTube or something of the previous games. That's something anyone who's in a position to buy and play CS3 should theoretically be able to do.
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CS 1 and 2 aren't on Switch, that's the whole reason people are talking about starting with 3
 
Lozange

Lozange

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Oct 25, 2017
1,100
Kromeo said:
CS 1 and 2 aren't on Switch, that's the whole reason people are talking about starting with 3
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This is the one reasonable reason I can think of, that I will concede.

But this conversation was a thing when the ps4 version was coming out. Did people naturally concede that "yes, I should at least start with CS1, that makes a lot of sense, thank you for informing me where to start"? No. Instead, "GATEKEEPING" and "fake news, I'm sure I'll be fine" and "well now that I have to put the bare minimum of thought into what game to play, I guess I won't play the series at all..."
People act like getting into this series is complicated, but I don't see what's so difficult about "start with the first game (CS1), ideally start with the actual first game (Sky FC), if you play anything else don't say you weren't warned about the series continuity". People manage it with books and movies! Heck I'd say star wars is far more complicated, there you should start with episode 4, that's not intuitive at all.
 
Korigama

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,514
Lots of replies, so I'll say that I agree that the issue right now indeed seems to be that even if someone isn't telling them to play everything (hell, I started with CS1 myself and then went to Sky FC), advising others to at least play CS1 and 2 first is also dismissed as "gatekeeping". And yeah, this has been a common reaction even when CS3 was still PS4-only, a platform with ports of CS1 and CS2 readily available ahead of CS3's localized release.
 
Thuddert

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
I think it's more an extreme fear of missing out. All these peeps talking about thing.

Games nowadays have to be designed in way that nobody that has touched any game can still play it, that still holds for CS3. Doesn't mean you'll be able to understand it.
 
Alucrid

Alucrid

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Oct 25, 2017
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Thuddert said:
I think it's more an extreme fear of missing out. All these peeps talking about thing.

Games nowadays have to be designed in way that nobody that has touched any game can still play it, that still holds for CS3. Doesn't mean you'll be able to understand it.
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the funny thing is that it wasn't in the broader gaming conversation when it released on ps4. the ot has 18 pages. barely anyone talked about it.
 
lucancel

lucancel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,384
Italy
Gatekeeping is there without doubt.
Cs3 has lot of qol features in gameplay not in older games.
If people starts here they can always try the Sky Trilogy or crossbell duology later to meet deeper their playable cast.
Not advised Indeed but better than not touching the franchise as a whole which falcom tossic base fails to understand.

If they Jump on cs3, switch only users, or on cs1 for ps4 users It Is better to show nisa and falcom support for new titles because cold steel plot is told from erebonian perspective and falcom explains things everytime.
If they can commit to play Sky and crossbell before cold steel even better but It Is not mandatory, only if one desire the full experience. Like seeing infinity Wars without antman, black phanter or doctor strange imho.
And this not considering many fans takes on each arc which are different (not for everyone the quality order Is Sky, crossbell and cold steel)
 
Mivey

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
I take it hard to take the word "gatekeeping" seriously, when it's
1) people actively asking for advice whether they can start with CS3. No one is pushing their opinion on them.
2) no one receives negative reactions for moving forward with playing CS3 as the first game regardless, once it's made clear why people think that's not advisable. If you are informed about how CS3 is ... well CS3, and still decide to skip on everything prior, then go ahead. More power to you.

The very complaint comes across as lacking any self-confidence and desperately seeking acceptance for something you wanted to do anyway.
 

Deleted member 9746

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Just buy the game so they can announce CSIV. As for what game strangers start with...

images
 
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Hobbun

Hobbun

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Oct 27, 2017
4,396
Erpy said:
Most people have already given up on trying to get people to play all 7 games before CS3, but at this point even telling folks "start with CS1 and CS2" is considered gatekeeping because those two games can also easily reach 120 or more hours combined.
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I haven't given up, at least for myself. Plan to play all of them before I play CS III. Hope Geofront follows up with Ao.
 

Deleted member 873

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Some of y'all will love waiting 20 years for the fan translation of some novel publishers refuse to publish in English with that attitude.
 

Deleted member 873

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Hi!

I fell in love with Kiseki thanks to Pringles and a thing that I keep seeing happening is people loving CSI and II and then a lot of posts making playing III like a huge ordeal, with JP only games with one of them having a It Can't Be Helped fantranslation.

Do I think someone should play CSIII without experiencing the PSP era games? I don't. Do I think it's unplayable or something? I don't.

There are lots of books in history where people just jump in whenever they want and still take something out of it. Is it the ideal experience? Arguably no, but people still do that. People do that with movies too. And even videogames (see: KHIII's sales).

CSIII even keeps making references to said events so I really don't think it's worth making people avoid purchasing III just so they can keep enjoying the journey they started on CSI and II.

The Switch version is a step towards that IMO. I have the games on my PC but I sold my PS4 some time ago because the weebness was not enough to justify it IMO (:p), so when it was announced I was literally shaking! Idk I might be the literal only person who this port is targeted to, but I think it's a natural follow-up to the PSP-PSV lifespan of these games.

I think we should care less about how people are enjoying art and more if they are enjoying it. I'm a literature major, and I see that a lot in academia. You only have the true experience if you have read <list of books> before reading said book. Idk, art is so multifaceted, people will take away so much different things from a single piece of art that we can ever imagine...

But do I think there are mandatory readings before reading some titles? Sure. But to each their own.

And we need to think localizations need to be funded so gatekeeping is extremely hard to support. This series will have so many more games... I know we can wait, I know there are talented fans giving part of their lives to translate the games, but that's not ideal. I wish the Geofront folk would be paid, for example.

Anyway. Sorry if I was rude or something. I'm just a new fan and I was so hyped by the announcement that it was sad not finding the same excitement.
 
Thuddert

Thuddert

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Oct 25, 2017
4,298
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When you have a book series, normally you don't start somewhere in the middle.

Like starting LotR with The Two Towers. In that sense The Hobbit is kinda like Trails in the Sky.
 
lucancel

lucancel

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Oct 30, 2017
1,384
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WonderLuigi said:
I was so hyped by the announcement that it was sad not finding the same excitement.
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You are not the only one happy about It.

Sadly (imho) the falcom Internet fanbase has many tossic and stubborn fans as you can see who in a soft way or hard way do gatekeeping. There Is nothing to do about It. Just ignore someone or write positive things on trails to counter some harsh words.
Falcom partially addressed the problem since every (old) characters coming back in cs3 Is introduced and explained by rean or to rean but people will ignore It, wonder why...
Indeed emotional impact Is soft since you did not see old characters journeys but you cannot do nothing about It unless you play all games...which you could and should if you want the best approach to the plot of cs3 but this Is your decision. You do not need others seal of approval lol. If you want to skip old titles do It. Less impact, still worth plot and game.
 
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Mivey

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
17,826
I'm torn about this. On one hand, I want a PC port, on the other hand, it would a PC Port by NISA.

tenor.gif
 
Erpy

Erpy

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May 31, 2018
2,997
Mivey said:
I'm torn about this. On one hand, I want a PC port, on the other hand, it would a PC Port by NISA.

tenor.gif
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One way NISA would be able to avoid turning it into "Ys VIII PC - the Sordid Sequel" would be to do two things: hire the same person who did the PC ports for Cold Steel I and II and give him as much time as he needs to satisfy his own quality standard. On that note they're lucky that the one person who has intimate knowledge of porting Phyre Engine-based Trails games to PC and two solid ports under his belt already isn't someone under contract from XSeed, but rather an independent contractor who just happens to have started his own porting company.

NISA already showed that they were aware of the intense skepticism they'd be facing and wanted to nip a shitstorm in the bud when they announced, shortly after the announcement of the game itself, that Ryan, Kris and Brittany were involved even if it turned out that they weren't quite as involved as some people wanted them to be and the localization itself was still a bit of a step back. Merely putting Durante into a consulting role won't cut it this time since they already did that with Ys VIII and people won't be appeased by that again. If he's put in charge, they can probably avoid a huge wave of skepticism since I wager that the Steam userbase still trusts Durante more than they distrust NISA. It's all up to how much cash they're willing to invest.

Durante won't come cheap since he's no longer a lone contractor but a guy running a porting company, so he'll probably be more expensive this time around but I hope the Ys VIII debacle showed NISA that it's better to invest in something and do it right the first time than try to take shortcuts and spend nearly an additional year sinking resources into bandaids to stabilize an unstable port. That same long-game perspective should hopefully also convince them to invest in the franchise on PC since, due to the long-running nature of the franchise, the PC versions will be the versions people will be recommending to new players 5 years from now on.
 

Deleted member 873

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Thuddert said:
When you have a book series, normally you don't start somewhere in the middle.

Like starting LotR with The Two Towers. In that sense The Hobbit is kinda like Trails in the Sky.
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I'm thinking about

A) series that spawn many other series. The Tolkien universe is a good example

And

B) books that the academia tells you that you need to have a bigger background to understand.

I don't think Harry Potter and The Order of Phoenix is the same as the Crossbell games.
 
Chaosblade

Chaosblade

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Oct 25, 2017
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lucancel said:
Hope for a pc port and ask them (nisa)
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Don't think there is much need for hoping or asking. Seen enough comments around that I think we'll probably get it in the first half of next year. Not the least of which was a vague tease from Durante, meaning PH3 might be behind the port. Which would be excellent and convince me to jump in day one rather than wait to see if NISA botched it.

Also the gatekeeping stuff is so overblown. I don't think I've ever seen anyone tell people you should either play all the games in order or just don't play the series. The only time that kind of thing ever even comes up is when someone is asking about starting, and of course fans are going to recommend the best way to experience the series. But that also basically always gets recommended along with the option to start with CS1, even if it's less ideal.
 

Deleted member 2585

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I recommend that people should start the series with Trails of Cold Steel or Trails in the Sky.

Guess I'm a tossic toxic gatekeeper. Sorry if I'm not going to parrot NISA's line that CS3 is a perfect place to start.
 

Deleted member 2585

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SenseiX said:
It's may not be a perfect place to start, but I see no issue starting with CS3.
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And that's great! That's your opinion. I personally see several issues with starting with CS3. If people ask me where to start the series, I'm going to say, "You should probably start with Trails in the Sky or Trails of Cold Steel; I'd recommend against starting with Trails of Cold Steel III."

Now. Does that make me a toxic gatekeeper? Because that's certainly what some of these posts are saying.
 
Mivey

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
17,826
SenseiX said:
It may not be a perfect place to start, but I see no issue starting with CS3.
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Wow, that's an interesting opinion, I would really like a more in depth answer here, if you don't mind me asking.

So you don't think you'll be missing anything compared with someone who has already spend hundreds of hours familiarizing himself or herself with this world, the characters that inhibit it, the overall plot and the themes presented in past games, contrasted with new ideas from this game. You don't see how that could in any shape or form affect your understanding negatively, despite whatever simple attempts at introducing various characters Falcom put into CS3. You really think a 5 minute exposition, and some background text has the exact same effect? And even if you can follow even subtle hints, how can these brisk introductions ever replace the commitment to these characters and their fates you would develop if you followed their journey over many years?
 
Lozange

Lozange

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Oct 25, 2017
1,100
A: "Hey guys, I've borrowed my friend's ps4 and a copy of Sen IV (the Japanese version), and I'm out of space to make a new save file: should I just load my friend's save at the final boss and play from there? It's my first Trails game btw, and I can't read Japanese."
B: "I think this is a bad idea"
C: "NO. Don't gatekeep. This is what the devs intended in this situation. You do you OP. BE PROUD of your ability to skip literally the entire game and story just to see the ending. That's probably the best part anyway, and it's in Japanese, so you know that it will be super accurate to the dev's intentions. In a way, it's the perfect localisation. ALSO, you don't need to play the other games, because you've skipped most of the parts where they're relevant! Wow why play the other games at all really."
 
SenseiX

SenseiX

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Oct 25, 2017
1,783
Erheller said:
And that's great! That's your opinion. I personally see several issues with starting with CS3. If people ask me where to start the series, I'm going to say, "You should probably start with Trails in the Sky or Trails of Cold Steel; I'd recommend against starting with Trails of Cold Steel III."

Now. Does that make me a toxic gatekeeper? Because that's certainly what some of these posts are saying.
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TBH I do not understand how this is considered gatekeeping lol. Like, someone can advise me all they want, but ultimately It's my decision whether or not to take that advice.


Mivey said:
Wow, that's an interesting opinion, I would really like a more in depth answer here, if you don't mind me asking.

So you don't think you'll be missing anything compared with someone who has already spend hundreds of hours familiarizing himself or herself with this world, the characters that inhibit it, the overall plot and the themes presented in past games, contrasted with new ideas from this game. You don't see how that could in any shape or form affect your understanding negatively, despite whatever simple attempts at introducing various characters Falcom put into CS3. You really think a 5 minute exposition, and some background text has the exact same effect? And even if you can follow even subtle hints, how can these brisk introductions ever replace the commitment to these characters and their fates you would develop if you followed their journey over many years?
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I never said you won't be missing anything. I mean there's a huge '3' written in Roman printed on the box, so of course you're gonna miss a lot of stuff if you haven't played '1' and '2'.

I played Sen 3 two years ago with nothing under my belt other than Sky FC, SC and a little bit of CS1, which I tried on PSVita after I read some positive reviews and how it compares to modern Persona, but I didn't like it much. Enjoyed Sen 3 a lot, but after putting like 20 hours into it, I became REALLY interested and decided to put it on hold until I finish everything before it. Playing through every game and realising that EVERYTHING is connected made me appreciate the series and the work Falcom puts into their games, but even so I believe CS3 to be a fantastic game and you could play it as is. Nothing is stopping you from playing the rest if you enjoyed CS3.

^ Playing from the final boss save is never a good idea lmao
 
Mivey

Mivey

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Oct 25, 2017
17,826
SenseiX said:
I never said you won't be missing anything. I mean there's a huge '3' written in Roman printed on the box, so of course you're gonna miss a lot of stuff if you haven't played '1' and '2'.

I played Sen 3 two years ago with nothing under my belt other than Sky FC, SC and a little bit of CS1, which I tried on PSVita after I read some positive reviews and how it compares to modern Persona, but I didn't like it much. Enjoyed Sen 3 a lot, but after putting like 20 hours into it, I became REALLY interested and decided to put it on hold until I finish everything before it. Playing through every game and realising that EVERYTHING is connected made me appreciate the series and the work Falcom puts into their games, but even so I believe CS3 to be a fantastic game and you could play it as is. Nothing is stopping you from playing the rest if you enjoyed CS3.

^ Playing from the final boss save is never a good idea lmao
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That's actually my point, "missing a lot of stuff" is certainly a big issue for me when playing any game and you yourself even seem to believe that it's better to not finish CS3 before playing the stuff that came before it.

Soo thanks for arguing my point for me, I guess, that's really nice of you. 😊
 
lucancel

lucancel

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Oct 30, 2017
1,384
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If people suggest to start with Sky there Is the possibility people will get bored by the old gameplay systems and slow Battle system(not pc users obvioulsly since there Is turbo mode there). Imho new fans should start with cold steel 1 and if they like It to Jump back on Sky.
Or to start with Sky but give a chance to cold steel if they find Sky to slow...
 
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