Kiseki/Trails Community |OT| Familiar faces~, Zemurian places—SPOILER TAGS OR DIE!

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
547
Yeesh, I just got to the end(I think...) of CS1's finale and I don't have a single required weapon to make any of the ultimates, I don't even know where I could've gotten them from.

"Wow, you have [ultimate item] and I can make [ultimate thing] for you, too bad you don't have the other thing we never told you about!"


And the lack of VA on Rean in key scenes is very jarring.
Aren't they just the upgraded versions of the last set of weapons you can buy? And you find ore shards as you do the final dungeon. You should be able to make at least one ultimate weapon even if you didn't do the side stuff.
 

Pringles

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,958
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
I just beat Zero no Kiseki and man what a game definitely enjoyed seeing
that moment between Renne, Joshua and Estelle finally coming to the conclusion and with Estelle embracing her, really touching after all she has been through
.

Now I just need to figure out the best way to play Ao no Kiseki now after just playing the Evo version of Zero on my Vita; anyone have any suggestions?
The Evo version of Ao, maybe?
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
Ah well, bit late now.
Does George not sell them himself under the Buy tab? I swore he did.

If not, you can probably just turn around and walk out of the final dungeon and buy them in the Union Building.

Always check every vendor in CS, you never know what you are going to find updated in there.

If it makes you feel better the ultimate weapons in CS2 don't require anything but the Ore ;)
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
Coral Springs, FL
Does George not sell them himself under the Buy tab? I swore he did.

If not, you can probably just turn around and walk out of the final dungeon and buy them in the Union Building.

Always check every vendor in CS, you never know what you are going to find updated in there.

If it makes you feel better the ultimate weapons in CS2 don't require anything but the Ore ;)
Nope, George just sells items. I went back to the Student Union and there they were.
I will say I sure didn't expect the final battle to turn into
Xenogears.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
Nope, George just sells items. I went back to the Student Union and there they were.
I will say I sure didn't expect the final battle to turn into
Xenogears.
It's a pretty wild ending all around. I can't imagine how mad I would have been if I'd had to wait forever for the second game haha.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
Coral Springs, FL
Trails is best when it takes you by surprise, but even if you have an inkling of where things are going they hit harder than you expect.
For all the great beats, I'm just really sick of them letting villains live. If I were Rean, I would have
torn the head of Scarlet's mech then taken hers off with it.

The villains have no honor, why should they?

Glad I didn't have the twist spoiled, I remember hearing that
one of the class was a traitor, thankfully I had no idea who, never even occurred to me by the end.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
For all the great beats, I'm just really sick of them letting villains live. If I were Rean, I would have
torn the head of Scarlet's mech then taken hers off with it.

The villains have no honor, why should they?

Glad I didn't have the twist spoiled, I remember hearing that
one of the class was a traitor, thankfully I had no idea who, never even occurred to me by the end.

It's not really a game about violent vengeance on the bad guys. More often Rean and company try to take the high road, or try to turn the bad guys back to the light.

If that isn't your thing you are going to really hate the next two games.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
Coral Springs, FL
It's not really a game about violent vengeance on the bad guys. More often Rean and company try to take the high road, or try to turn the bad guys back to the light.

If that isn't your thing you are going to really hate the next two games.
I'm sure it will drive me crazy.

"I'm sure we can make [x] see the error of their ways and come back!"
"Rean, they just destroyed an entire building and murdered like 5000 people."
"People can change!"
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
1,153
On the other hand, Sky the 3rd would have been a lot less broken (and fun) if Estelle and co had murdered every villain they fought in the preceding games.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
If the heroes start murdering people, they stop being heroes.

I really can't imagine Estelle, Lloyd or Rean just straight up murdering their opponents and the story acknowledging it as justifiable. The tone would just... yeah, it wouldn't work at all.
 

Yunyo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,771
Yeah I vastly prefer knockouts, arrests, and forcing the opponent to run in humiliating ways. Sadly we don't get those very often.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
If the heroes start murdering people, they stop being heroes.
It depends. If killing them saves the lives of many people, and the villian is clearly a maniacal madman, who literally can't be stopped by playing by the rules of society, then murder becomes more than justifiable.
I would call this the "Joker clause", because a hero who keeps on letting such a villain live, is a coward at best, and a stubborn and sanctimonious idealist at worst.

Luckily, from the Trails games I have played so far, the villains were far better than second-rate comic book villains, so this doesn't really apply
 

psynergyadept

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,203
Kevin is the realest one then! Man gave zero fucks! what a way that person went...

That being said it's witin the JRPG's tropes that the hero rarely kills...either the villain is jailed, joins you, dies because he/she used to much power, gets betrayed by another, or sacrifices themselves after realizing their action were wrong,

After the events of CS3 there is going to be a lot of this in CS4.
 
Last edited:

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
It depends. If killing them saves the lives of many people, and the villian is clearly a maniacal madman, who literally can't be stopped by playing by the rules of society, then murder becomes more than justifiable.
I would call this the "Joker clause", because a hero who keeps on letting such a villain live, is a coward at best, and a stubborn and sanctimonious idealist at worst
See, I don't think that way.

Obviously, it the narrative works its way into permitting such a scenario, where the heroes have literally no other option but to kill the bad guy, then sure, it can work.

But your example is a good one, because if Batman kills the Joker it opens an entire can of worms that these stories are not designed nor prepared to enter. If Joker is killed by the Batman, then it introduces the question of what is too much. Other villains have done unspeakable horrors, why don't those characters deserve to be killed? If you allow batman, from a narrative perspective, to break the ideal that makes him a hero, that ideal becomes useless, it becomes another type of story entirely.

Basically, if you're making a shonen-ass story like Trails is doing, you need to keep it "shoneny". Otherwise things can get super dicey in terms of tone.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
But your example is a good one, because if Batman kills the Joker it opens an entire can of worms that these stories are not designed nor prepared to enter. If Joker is killed by the Batman, then it introduces the question of what is too much. Other villains have done unspeakable horrors, why don't those characters deserve to be killed? If you allow batman, from a narrative perspective, to break the ideal that makes him a hero, that ideal becomes useless, it becomes another type of story entirely.

Basically, if you're making a shonen-ass story like Trails is doing, you need to keep it "shoneny". Otherwise things can get super dicey in terms of tone.
See, that's the faux idealism I'm talking about. A hero is someone who cares about human lives. If killing that person clearly, and unarguably saves lives, then you should go for it. Again, I agree that a good story should be too nuanced to make such a situation really possible (after all, in real life next to no one is absolutely evil, so unless you are literally fighting Hitler, you should always try to capture them, not kill them), but with a silly comic book villain like the Joker, that point is like way, way way passed, so Batman not killing him due to ... what ? moral consistency is just bullshit, it's about making the world a better place, not justifying past mistakes.
Oh sorry future Joker victims, I just had to maintain my idealistic outook and innocence, that's clearly more important than your lives.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
Oh sorry future Joker victims, I just had to maintain my idealistic outook and innocence, that's clearly more important than your lives.
I mean, yeah, it is more important to maintain the ideal, from a narrative perspective. Otherwise, in the case of Batman, you're morphing the character and the stories he participates in. You can't have the Batman kill the Joker and continue the run like before, it's a chasm that changes the core of how you write for the character. It becomes something else.

I agree with you that it's faux idealism in real life, but that's the appeal of that type of superhero stories, at least in my opinion.

For Trails it wouldn't be such a chasm for the narrative, but allowing the good guys to kill would muddle the tone and themes severely, I feel.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
I mean, yeah, it is more important to maintain the ideal, from a narrative perspective. Otherwise, in the case of Batman, you're morphing the character and the stories he participates in. You can't have the Batman kill the Joker and continue the run like before, it's a chasm that changes the core of how you write for the character. It becomes something else.
Yes, and I'm saying that's a good thing. The worst thing about popular comic books series like Batman for me, is that nothing ever fucking changes. Not in the plot, nor in the tone. It's forever doomed to tell the same thing again and again.

I don't want games to replicate the errors of other mediums.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
Yes, and I'm saying that's a good thing. The worse thing about popular comic books series like Batman for me, is that nothing ever fucking changes. Not in the plot, nor in the tone. It's forever doomed to tell the same thing again and again.

I don't want games to replicate the errors of other mediums.
I don't think it's caused by adhering to an idealistic view, though. Comic books are cyclical and static because they're neverending, they have to keep pretty much everything the same, from the status quo, to the characters, to the cities they inhabit, to the problems they face. Everything has to be reset at some point.

That idealistic view it's pretty much a tone and theme setter, after that you have a lot of wiggle room to do a lot of different things with it. It's not limiting per se, it's a deliberate choice in terms of what rules the story is going to adhere to.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
idc if people die but trails needs more truly piece of shit villains

like
weissman

I feel like they kinda toned down ouruboros between sky and cold steel
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
idc if people die but trails needs more truly piece of shit villains

like
weissman

I feel like they kinda toned down ouruboros between sky and cold steel
I don't know, Ouroboros has taken a back seat, so it highlights a lot more the fact that they're a bunch of wierdos, but we have had our fair share of irredimable bad guys

Joaquim is also a piece shit, even if it's a deliberate, and not very good, retreat of Weissman.

But still, Duke Cayanne is also an other irredimable villain, although he doesn't manage to be as cruel as the other two, and CS3 villains kinda get the crown in my opinion. We don't know their motives yet, but what they've done already is pretty much the worse we've gotten.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
I don't think it's caused by adhering to an idealistic view, though. Comic books are cyclical and static because they're neverending, they have to keep pretty much everything the same, from the status quo, to the characters, to the cities they inhabit, to the problems they face. Everything has to be reset at some point.

That idealistic view it's pretty much a tone and theme setter, after that you have a lot of wiggle room to do a lot of different things with it. It's not limiting per se, it's a deliberate choice in terms of what rules the story is going to adhere to.
I don't agree with any of this, it's all just apologetics. You're taking the status quo and looking for justifications. There is no good reason why comic books should be truly endless. In an ideal world the Batman saga would have a clear beginning and end. Like old myths it might span thousands of entries, but it should lead to a certain point and actually end. That's the only way it could have meaning.

Instead, for purely commercial reasons, it's going in circles for all eternity. It's about as intellectually interesting as watching a dog chase its own tail.
I doubt any creative person who has written a Batman comic and cares about the setting, actually likes this. They accept it, what else should they do, after all. It's not them deciding what happens next, but a giant faceless company, but I doubt it would be so if there was no commercial incentive.

And I hope Falcom actually fnishes Trails, and moves on to other things. Maybe tell a wholly new story in an yet unexplored part of the world, but actually starting from scratch, as far as possible.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
I don't agree with any of this, it's all just apologetics. You're taking the status quo and looking for justifications. There is no good reason why comic books should be truly endless. In an ideal world the Batman saga would have a clear beginning and end. Like old myths it might span thousands of entries, but it should lead to a certain point and actually end. That's the only way it could have meaning.

Instead, for purely commercial reasons, it's going in circles for all eternity. I doubt any creative person who has written a Batman comic and cares about the setting, actually likes this. They accept it, what else should they do, after all. It's not them deciding what happens next, but a giant faceless company, but I doubt it would be so if there was no commercial incentive.
I'm not sure I've ever said any of this, but I'm the first one to admit that I'm not the best at making my points clear. I'm just trying to argue that preserving the ideal viewpoint that a hero (in this case Batman) adheres to is important in terms of tone and theme, if that's what you're going for as a story, otherwise things get very messy (like with the example with killing the Joker). Obviously, if the story is endless, we have an inevitable issue, that everything lacks consequence as nothing can change. I completely agree with you here. But that's, at least as I see it, completely separate from what we discussed at the beginning.

One Piece has a beginning and will have an end (presumably, I don't know, I can see Oda still having fun writing for Luffy and co until he dies at this point), and it has a consistent tone throught. Luffy and co can't just start killing people or the tone and theming of the story gets irreparably shaken. Same thing with Trails.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
One Piece has a beginning and will have an end (presumably, I don't know, I can see Oda still having fun writing for Luffy and co until he dies at this point), and it has a consistent tone throught. Luffy and co can't just start killing people or the tone and theming of the story gets irreparably shaken. Same thing with Trails.
Oh, okay, I think understand your point better then.

I guess my answer to that is that I don't personally care too much about tonal consistency, as long as the story is aware that it's changing the tone. A story that adheres to strictly to a fixed tone, becomes monotonic, and quite boring.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
Oh, okay, I think understand your point better then.

I guess my answer to that is that I don't personally care too much about tonal consistency, as long as the story is aware that it's changing the tone. A story that adheres to strictly to a fixed tone, becomes monotonic, and quite boring.
That's a pretty good way of putting it. If the story morphs in a natural way, like heroes start naive and idealistic but then after trials and tribulations become jaded and their outlook on life is a lot darker than before, then I don't see any problem with it because tone isn't inerhently immutable (and tone whiplash is a genuine techinque a story can effectively use. Tarantino has made a career of it), it's just dependent on theming, on what the story and characters stand for.

In regards to Trails, in my opinion, the story hasn't really made the legwork to allow such a departure of what is about (in terms of how it handles death, I mean).
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
And I hope Falcom actually fnishes Trails, and moves on to other things. Maybe tell a wholly new story in an yet unexplored part of the world, but actually starting from scratch, as far as possible.
I can see why that would be appealing but I kinda like how Trails keeps everything loosely strung together. It makes the world feel more realistic and lived in when these huge things can be happening in one part of the world and no one really knows about them in another.

I love that they show the events of Crossbell from the Erebonian side and how they didn't really understand what was going on. Because things were kept from Class 7 and the world is a big place; so why should they be privy to every piece of information.

I like how they have moved from one country to the next with each arc and tell a new story that still draws from other stories.

I can't wait to see where the next Trails series takes place, be in Calvard or Arteria/Leman or just some country way out East we haven't heard of yet.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
I can see why that would be appealing but I kinda like how Trails keeps everything loosely strung together. It makes the world feel more realistic and lived in when these huge things can be happening in one part of the world and no one really knows about them in another.

I love that they show the events of Crossbell from the Erebonian side and how they didn't really understand what was going on. Because things were kept from Class 7 and the world is a big place; so why should they be privy to every piece of information.

I like how they have moved from one country to the next with each arc and tell a new story that still draws from other stories.

I can't wait to see where the next Trails series takes place, be in Calvard or Arteria/Leman or just some country way out East we haven't heard of yet.
I'm with you, but the strongest element of Trails so far is that I believe that Falcom has a plan, and clearly Ouroborous is working towards something ( don't answer this with open CS or Crossbell spoilers).
If you take that away and just have the series continuing until whatever, it would make things far less interesting.
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,698
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
so it is confirmed as an issue tracker? Welp. It’s only gone up the past few days I think.

i wish they would just release the translation...poop
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
I assume there's a lot of new issues being added and old ones addressed, then, which is a very good thing to hear. Expecting a polished release for a fan translation. Also, considering how loose even US officials use the word "imminent", I feel you guys are quite safe there
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,698
so it is confirmed as an issue tracker? Welp. It’s only gone up the past few days I think.

i wish they would just release the translation...poop
They haven't explicitly said it's an issue tracker to my knowledge, but Floofy mentioned the possibility of doing one months ago and recently commented about trying to make the number automatically update instead of manually changing it. Not sure what else it could be, aside from blatant trolling.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,409
Devil Halton's Trap
Well, there's definitely trolling involved, but the number reflects something all too real.

I've actually gotten ahead of the editors this week, so I spent my free day yesterday on things other than playing through the Zero beta and compiling notes for them.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
I've been at work all day thinking about Cold Steel 3 when I get home. I have a problem.

I don't know what I'm gonna do when it's over.

Play it again I guess.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,806
Why in the name of god do they have to introduce Shirley by having her molest another character every time. Cringe so hard.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
It seems cringier and dumber than ever. Or maybe my weeb tolerance is dropping even more with time, I dunno....
It would help to have specific examples of what you're refering to. I can't recall any moment in the first chapter of the game that would be worth that reaction in comparison to the other games in the series.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Y'all, I need some advice. I'm well into Cold Steel 2 (just finished
the first ore temple and am now going to get revenge on Jusis's dad for lighting Celdic on fire
) but am already feeling burnt out by how repetitive it is, and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to finish by the time CS3 comes to PC/Switch. Should I just watch the rest of the story on YouTube and skip to CS3, or is it worth slogging through the rest of the game? (It'd also be helpful to know how many hours I have left to go, if anyone knows.)
I think you can find the CS2 NG+ only quest scene by googling black records.

Also advisable might be taking a break if you are burnt out of CS2. I think CS3 does a much better job on basically all fronts but structurally it is still the very same trails. I think even among the fanbase in japan people have been getting tired of that and the hope is Hajimari the next title is going to be a trails in the sky 3rd style deviation of the basic structure and not just be go to a place do quest to get rank points -> finish story segment -> see bonding events rinse repeat.
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,896
It would help to have specific examples of what you're refering to. I can't recall any moment in the first chapter of the game that would be worth that reaction in comparison to the other games in the series.
The intro with the 3 female knights had really cringy dialogue not to mention all the comically overdone Kiseki clichés of the noob students having their inane anime banter in the middle of a Very Important Mission, then deciding to put their differences aside and team up to beat the stronger foes and not let Rean "get all the glory", then being crushed, then oh look the antagonists were actually "holding back" (of course) and the students are about to get even more crushed -- but wait no, it's OK because the seniors are coming to the rescue blah blah

I seriously can't fucking take this anymore. That shit was lame shonen trash the first time, but the 12000th time it's unbearable. And yet, I'm confident there will be more of this in the next eleventy hours of this bloated-ass game.

For now I'm in chapter 1 and getting to know the town and it's... literally a repeat of CS1. The new town is literally Trista with all the same shops and buildings. Same format with the school shit with the clubs (good gods, I soooo don't care if someone wants to play chess or go swimming, again the same shit as in CS1 down to the same hobbies) and inane side-quests because Rean is everyone's errand boy even now that he's an instructor because gotta have that 90-hour game padding.

The students are peak annoying anime clichés, even more so than previous games it seems (they even repeated the same "gag" of the girl falling with her boobs on the guy's face, ohhh nice throwback guys, so clever! fuck off), down to the smug arrogant douchebro who hates Rean for no reason (buuuut I'm sure deep down he's a decent guy and will come around, right? I bet you he has a tragic backstory too), the obligatory tsundere, and the ultra-annoying giggling pretending-to-be-obtuse girl who hits on Rean at every opportunity, ohhh isn't it funny how awkward it makes Rean feel, lulz.... no, seriously who likes this crap?

Sorry for the rant. I'm sure there's stuff to enjoy in the game like I did in the others. But I don't know if I'll be able to endure 80+ more hours of so much shonen idiocy all over again especially considering how much of it is recycled already. Oh and why the fuck can't I fast-forward the dialogue in so many places? In 2020, how is this still a thing? Some dialogue can be fast-forwarded (when the X prompt appears) but not all, and I read much faster than the voices speak and having to hear the full audio in some cut scenes is a total blight. I pressed lots of buttons to no avail, please tell me I missed something...
 

Psxphile

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,792
I guess when someone says CS3 is better than 2 it's because it reminds them of CS1.

You can FF through text by holding the Circle button. That feature has been in Trails since the first game.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
398
The intro with the 3 female knights had really cringy dialogue not to mention all the comically overdone Kiseki clichés of the noob students having their inane anime banter in the middle of a Very Important Mission, then deciding to put their differences aside and team up to beat the stronger foes and not let Rean "get all the glory", then being crushed, then oh look the antagonists were actually "holding back" (of course) and the students are about to get even more crushed -- but wait no, it's OK because the seniors are coming to the rescue blah blah

I seriously can't fucking take this anymore. That shit was lame shonen trash the first time, but the 12000th time it's unbearable.

Now I'm in chapter 1 and getting to know the town and it's... literally a repeat of CS1. The new town is literally Trista with all the same shops and buildings. Same format with the school shit with the clubs (good gods, I soooo don't care if someone wants to play chess or go swimming, again the same shit as in CS1 down to the same hobbies) and inane side-quests because Rean is everyone's errand boy even now that he's an instructor.
The students are peak annoying anime clichés, even more so than previous games it seems (they even repeated the same "gag" of the girl falling with her boobs on the guy's face, ohhh nice throwback guys, so clever! fuck off), down to the smug arrogant douchebro who hates Rean for no reason (buuuut I'm sure deep down he's a decent guy and will come around, right? I bet you he has a tragic backstory too), the obligatory tsundere, and the ultra-annoying giggling pretending-to-be-obtuse girl who hits on Rean at every opportunity, ohhh isn't it funny how awkward it makes Rean feel, lulz.... no, seriously who likes this crap?

Sorry for the rant. I'm sure there's stuff to enjoy in the game like I did in the others. But I don't know if I'll be able to endure 80+ more hours of so much shonen idiocy all over again. Oh and why the fuck can't I fast-forward the dialogue in so many places? In 2020, how is this still a thing? Some dialogue can be fast-forwarded (when the X prompt appears) but not all, and I read much faster than the voices speak and having to hear the full audio in some cut scenes is a total blight. I pressed lots of buttons to no avail, please tell me I missed something...
Well, that's perfectly understandable, but that's not any different than what we had before, I thought you meant something that was particular of CS3.

Regarding your last question. All dialogue can be fast forwrded, either with r1 (I think I got the right button, if not it has to be L1), or maintaining O pressed. However, if what you're asking is for the scenes where the dialogue flows without your imput to be advanced before they finish, then beyond the mentioned fast forwarding, that will make you miss what's been said, then no, they can't be forwarded. They're more common than they were in the first two CS games, but they're still fairly situational.
 

Morrigan

Arrogant Smirk
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
14,896
However, if what you're asking is for the scenes where the dialogue flows without your imput to be advanced before they finish, then beyond the mentioned fast forwarding, that will make you miss what's been said, then no, they can't be forwarded.
Yes I am talking about this and... fuck. That's unacceptable in 2020