Kiseki/Trails Community |OT| Familiar faces~, Zemurian places—SPOILER TAGS OR DIE!

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505
Yeesh, I just got to the end(I think...) of CS1's finale and I don't have a single required weapon to make any of the ultimates, I don't even know where I could've gotten them from.

"Wow, you have [ultimate item] and I can make [ultimate thing] for you, too bad you don't have the other thing we never told you about!"


And the lack of VA on Rean in key scenes is very jarring.
Aren't they just the upgraded versions of the last set of weapons you can buy? And you find ore shards as you do the final dungeon. You should be able to make at least one ultimate weapon even if you didn't do the side stuff.
 

Pringles

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,795
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
I just beat Zero no Kiseki and man what a game definitely enjoyed seeing
that moment between Renne, Joshua and Estelle finally coming to the conclusion and with Estelle embracing her, really touching after all she has been through
.

Now I just need to figure out the best way to play Ao no Kiseki now after just playing the Evo version of Zero on my Vita; anyone have any suggestions?
The Evo version of Ao, maybe?
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
Ah well, bit late now.
Does George not sell them himself under the Buy tab? I swore he did.

If not, you can probably just turn around and walk out of the final dungeon and buy them in the Union Building.

Always check every vendor in CS, you never know what you are going to find updated in there.

If it makes you feel better the ultimate weapons in CS2 don't require anything but the Ore ;)
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,256
Coral Springs, FL
Does George not sell them himself under the Buy tab? I swore he did.

If not, you can probably just turn around and walk out of the final dungeon and buy them in the Union Building.

Always check every vendor in CS, you never know what you are going to find updated in there.

If it makes you feel better the ultimate weapons in CS2 don't require anything but the Ore ;)
Nope, George just sells items. I went back to the Student Union and there they were.
I will say I sure didn't expect the final battle to turn into
Xenogears.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,256
Coral Springs, FL
Trails is best when it takes you by surprise, but even if you have an inkling of where things are going they hit harder than you expect.
For all the great beats, I'm just really sick of them letting villains live. If I were Rean, I would have
torn the head of Scarlet's mech then taken hers off with it.

The villains have no honor, why should they?

Glad I didn't have the twist spoiled, I remember hearing that
one of the class was a traitor, thankfully I had no idea who, never even occurred to me by the end.
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
For all the great beats, I'm just really sick of them letting villains live. If I were Rean, I would have
torn the head of Scarlet's mech then taken hers off with it.

The villains have no honor, why should they?

Glad I didn't have the twist spoiled, I remember hearing that
one of the class was a traitor, thankfully I had no idea who, never even occurred to me by the end.

It's not really a game about violent vengeance on the bad guys. More often Rean and company try to take the high road, or try to turn the bad guys back to the light.

If that isn't your thing you are going to really hate the next two games.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,256
Coral Springs, FL
It's not really a game about violent vengeance on the bad guys. More often Rean and company try to take the high road, or try to turn the bad guys back to the light.

If that isn't your thing you are going to really hate the next two games.
I'm sure it will drive me crazy.

"I'm sure we can make [x] see the error of their ways and come back!"
"Rean, they just destroyed an entire building and murdered like 5000 people."
"People can change!"
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
1,047
On the other hand, Sky the 3rd would have been a lot less broken (and fun) if Estelle and co had murdered every villain they fought in the preceding games.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
If the heroes start murdering people, they stop being heroes.

I really can't imagine Estelle, Lloyd or Rean just straight up murdering their opponents and the story acknowledging it as justifiable. The tone would just... yeah, it wouldn't work at all.
 

Yunyo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,688
Yeah I vastly prefer knockouts, arrests, and forcing the opponent to run in humiliating ways. Sadly we don't get those very often.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
If the heroes start murdering people, they stop being heroes.
It depends. If killing them saves the lives of many people, and the villian is clearly a maniacal madman, who literally can't be stopped by playing by the rules of society, then murder becomes more than justifiable.
I would call this the "Joker clause", because a hero who keeps on letting such a villain live, is a coward at best, and a stubborn and sanctimonious idealist at worst.

Luckily, from the Trails games I have played so far, the villains were far better than second-rate comic book villains, so this doesn't really apply
 

psynergyadept

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,958
Kevin is the realest one then! Man gave zero fucks! what a way that person went...

That being said it's witin the JRPG's tropes that the hero rarely kills...either the villain is jailed, joins you, dies because he/she used to much power, gets betrayed by another, or sacrifices themselves after realizing their action were wrong,

After the events of CS3 there is going to be a lot of this in CS4.
 
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Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
It depends. If killing them saves the lives of many people, and the villian is clearly a maniacal madman, who literally can't be stopped by playing by the rules of society, then murder becomes more than justifiable.
I would call this the "Joker clause", because a hero who keeps on letting such a villain live, is a coward at best, and a stubborn and sanctimonious idealist at worst
See, I don't think that way.

Obviously, it the narrative works its way into permitting such a scenario, where the heroes have literally no other option but to kill the bad guy, then sure, it can work.

But your example is a good one, because if Batman kills the Joker it opens an entire can of worms that these stories are not designed nor prepared to enter. If Joker is killed by the Batman, then it introduces the question of what is too much. Other villains have done unspeakable horrors, why don't those characters deserve to be killed? If you allow batman, from a narrative perspective, to break the ideal that makes him a hero, that ideal becomes useless, it becomes another type of story entirely.

Basically, if you're making a shonen-ass story like Trails is doing, you need to keep it "shoneny". Otherwise things can get super dicey in terms of tone.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
But your example is a good one, because if Batman kills the Joker it opens an entire can of worms that these stories are not designed nor prepared to enter. If Joker is killed by the Batman, then it introduces the question of what is too much. Other villains have done unspeakable horrors, why don't those characters deserve to be killed? If you allow batman, from a narrative perspective, to break the ideal that makes him a hero, that ideal becomes useless, it becomes another type of story entirely.

Basically, if you're making a shonen-ass story like Trails is doing, you need to keep it "shoneny". Otherwise things can get super dicey in terms of tone.
See, that's the faux idealism I'm talking about. A hero is someone who cares about human lives. If killing that person clearly, and unarguably saves lives, then you should go for it. Again, I agree that a good story should be too nuanced to make such a situation really possible (after all, in real life next to no one is absolutely evil, so unless you are literally fighting Hitler, you should always try to capture them, not kill them), but with a silly comic book villain like the Joker, that point is like way, way way passed, so Batman not killing him due to ... what ? moral consistency is just bullshit, it's about making the world a better place, not justifying past mistakes.
Oh sorry future Joker victims, I just had to maintain my idealistic outook and innocence, that's clearly more important than your lives.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
Oh sorry future Joker victims, I just had to maintain my idealistic outook and innocence, that's clearly more important than your lives.
I mean, yeah, it is more important to maintain the ideal, from a narrative perspective. Otherwise, in the case of Batman, you're morphing the character and the stories he participates in. You can't have the Batman kill the Joker and continue the run like before, it's a chasm that changes the core of how you write for the character. It becomes something else.

I agree with you that it's faux idealism in real life, but that's the appeal of that type of superhero stories, at least in my opinion.

For Trails it wouldn't be such a chasm for the narrative, but allowing the good guys to kill would muddle the tone and themes severely, I feel.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
I mean, yeah, it is more important to maintain the ideal, from a narrative perspective. Otherwise, in the case of Batman, you're morphing the character and the stories he participates in. You can't have the Batman kill the Joker and continue the run like before, it's a chasm that changes the core of how you write for the character. It becomes something else.
Yes, and I'm saying that's a good thing. The worst thing about popular comic books series like Batman for me, is that nothing ever fucking changes. Not in the plot, nor in the tone. It's forever doomed to tell the same thing again and again.

I don't want games to replicate the errors of other mediums.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
Yes, and I'm saying that's a good thing. The worse thing about popular comic books series like Batman for me, is that nothing ever fucking changes. Not in the plot, nor in the tone. It's forever doomed to tell the same thing again and again.

I don't want games to replicate the errors of other mediums.
I don't think it's caused by adhering to an idealistic view, though. Comic books are cyclical and static because they're neverending, they have to keep pretty much everything the same, from the status quo, to the characters, to the cities they inhabit, to the problems they face. Everything has to be reset at some point.

That idealistic view it's pretty much a tone and theme setter, after that you have a lot of wiggle room to do a lot of different things with it. It's not limiting per se, it's a deliberate choice in terms of what rules the story is going to adhere to.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,775
idc if people die but trails needs more truly piece of shit villains

like
weissman

I feel like they kinda toned down ouruboros between sky and cold steel
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
idc if people die but trails needs more truly piece of shit villains

like
weissman

I feel like they kinda toned down ouruboros between sky and cold steel
I don't know, Ouroboros has taken a back seat, so it highlights a lot more the fact that they're a bunch of wierdos, but we have had our fair share of irredimable bad guys

Joaquim is also a piece shit, even if it's a deliberate, and not very good, retreat of Weissman.

But still, Duke Cayanne is also an other irredimable villain, although he doesn't manage to be as cruel as the other two, and CS3 villains kinda get the crown in my opinion. We don't know their motives yet, but what they've done already is pretty much the worse we've gotten.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
I don't think it's caused by adhering to an idealistic view, though. Comic books are cyclical and static because they're neverending, they have to keep pretty much everything the same, from the status quo, to the characters, to the cities they inhabit, to the problems they face. Everything has to be reset at some point.

That idealistic view it's pretty much a tone and theme setter, after that you have a lot of wiggle room to do a lot of different things with it. It's not limiting per se, it's a deliberate choice in terms of what rules the story is going to adhere to.
I don't agree with any of this, it's all just apologetics. You're taking the status quo and looking for justifications. There is no good reason why comic books should be truly endless. In an ideal world the Batman saga would have a clear beginning and end. Like old myths it might span thousands of entries, but it should lead to a certain point and actually end. That's the only way it could have meaning.

Instead, for purely commercial reasons, it's going in circles for all eternity. It's about as intellectually interesting as watching a dog chase its own tail.
I doubt any creative person who has written a Batman comic and cares about the setting, actually likes this. They accept it, what else should they do, after all. It's not them deciding what happens next, but a giant faceless company, but I doubt it would be so if there was no commercial incentive.

And I hope Falcom actually fnishes Trails, and moves on to other things. Maybe tell a wholly new story in an yet unexplored part of the world, but actually starting from scratch, as far as possible.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
I don't agree with any of this, it's all just apologetics. You're taking the status quo and looking for justifications. There is no good reason why comic books should be truly endless. In an ideal world the Batman saga would have a clear beginning and end. Like old myths it might span thousands of entries, but it should lead to a certain point and actually end. That's the only way it could have meaning.

Instead, for purely commercial reasons, it's going in circles for all eternity. I doubt any creative person who has written a Batman comic and cares about the setting, actually likes this. They accept it, what else should they do, after all. It's not them deciding what happens next, but a giant faceless company, but I doubt it would be so if there was no commercial incentive.
I'm not sure I've ever said any of this, but I'm the first one to admit that I'm not the best at making my points clear. I'm just trying to argue that preserving the ideal viewpoint that a hero (in this case Batman) adheres to is important in terms of tone and theme, if that's what you're going for as a story, otherwise things get very messy (like with the example with killing the Joker). Obviously, if the story is endless, we have an inevitable issue, that everything lacks consequence as nothing can change. I completely agree with you here. But that's, at least as I see it, completely separate from what we discussed at the beginning.

One Piece has a beginning and will have an end (presumably, I don't know, I can see Oda still having fun writing for Luffy and co until he dies at this point), and it has a consistent tone throught. Luffy and co can't just start killing people or the tone and theming of the story gets irreparably shaken. Same thing with Trails.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
One Piece has a beginning and will have an end (presumably, I don't know, I can see Oda still having fun writing for Luffy and co until he dies at this point), and it has a consistent tone throught. Luffy and co can't just start killing people or the tone and theming of the story gets irreparably shaken. Same thing with Trails.
Oh, okay, I think understand your point better then.

I guess my answer to that is that I don't personally care too much about tonal consistency, as long as the story is aware that it's changing the tone. A story that adheres to strictly to a fixed tone, becomes monotonic, and quite boring.
 

Open Wound

Member
Nov 7, 2017
379
Oh, okay, I think understand your point better then.

I guess my answer to that is that I don't personally care too much about tonal consistency, as long as the story is aware that it's changing the tone. A story that adheres to strictly to a fixed tone, becomes monotonic, and quite boring.
That's a pretty good way of putting it. If the story morphs in a natural way, like heroes start naive and idealistic but then after trials and tribulations become jaded and their outlook on life is a lot darker than before, then I don't see any problem with it because tone isn't inerhently immutable (and tone whiplash is a genuine techinque a story can effectively use. Tarantino has made a career of it), it's just dependent on theming, on what the story and characters stand for.

In regards to Trails, in my opinion, the story hasn't really made the legwork to allow such a departure of what is about (in terms of how it handles death, I mean).
 

Arcade55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
And I hope Falcom actually fnishes Trails, and moves on to other things. Maybe tell a wholly new story in an yet unexplored part of the world, but actually starting from scratch, as far as possible.
I can see why that would be appealing but I kinda like how Trails keeps everything loosely strung together. It makes the world feel more realistic and lived in when these huge things can be happening in one part of the world and no one really knows about them in another.

I love that they show the events of Crossbell from the Erebonian side and how they didn't really understand what was going on. Because things were kept from Class 7 and the world is a big place; so why should they be privy to every piece of information.

I like how they have moved from one country to the next with each arc and tell a new story that still draws from other stories.

I can't wait to see where the next Trails series takes place, be in Calvard or Arteria/Leman or just some country way out East we haven't heard of yet.
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
I can see why that would be appealing but I kinda like how Trails keeps everything loosely strung together. It makes the world feel more realistic and lived in when these huge things can be happening in one part of the world and no one really knows about them in another.

I love that they show the events of Crossbell from the Erebonian side and how they didn't really understand what was going on. Because things were kept from Class 7 and the world is a big place; so why should they be privy to every piece of information.

I like how they have moved from one country to the next with each arc and tell a new story that still draws from other stories.

I can't wait to see where the next Trails series takes place, be in Calvard or Arteria/Leman or just some country way out East we haven't heard of yet.
I'm with you, but the strongest element of Trails so far is that I believe that Falcom has a plan, and clearly Ouroborous is working towards something ( don't answer this with open CS or Crossbell spoilers).
If you take that away and just have the series continuing until whatever, it would make things far less interesting.
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,531
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
 

jaekeem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,775
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
so it is confirmed as an issue tracker? Welp. It’s only gone up the past few days I think.

i wish they would just release the translation...poop
 

Mivey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,528
The Geofront issue tracker manages to be both disappointing and relieving. Disappointing because it has been hovering around 40 since it was put up, so we can say it isn't truly "imminent." But it is some manner of reporting progress and visualizing the remaining workload, and we know it's still weeks/months away so we don't have to sit on the edge of our seats and anticipate a release announcement any day now.
I assume there's a lot of new issues being added and old ones addressed, then, which is a very good thing to hear. Expecting a polished release for a fan translation. Also, considering how loose even US officials use the word "imminent", I feel you guys are quite safe there
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,531
so it is confirmed as an issue tracker? Welp. It’s only gone up the past few days I think.

i wish they would just release the translation...poop
They haven't explicitly said it's an issue tracker to my knowledge, but Floofy mentioned the possibility of doing one months ago and recently commented about trying to make the number automatically update instead of manually changing it. Not sure what else it could be, aside from blatant trolling.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,353
Devil Halton's Trap
Well, there's definitely trolling involved, but the number reflects something all too real.

I've actually gotten ahead of the editors this week, so I spent my free day yesterday on things other than playing through the Zero beta and compiling notes for them.