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Knives Out | Spoiler Thread | Whodonut?

Fletcher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
202
IDK feels like Marta actually being the bad guy would have worked better to subvert murder-mystery tropes than pretty much knowing the whole story in the first 20-30 mins and then waiting for the movie to get there.
Pretty much, this. Not necessarily Marta, but this genre should have more twists. This was way too straight forward and predictable as soon as they show Marta "killing" the patriarch and focus way too much on her being the killer and thwarting the detective. I guess I like these to be about the detective solving the crime. 🤷‍♂️
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,959
Pretty much, this. Not necessarily Marta, but this genre should have more twists. This was way too straight forward and predictable as soon as they show Marta "killing" the patriarch and focus way too much on her being the killer and thwarting the detective. I guess I like these to be about the detective solving the crime. 🤷‍♂️
I dunno, I just watched Death On The Nile (1978) for the first time having never seen or read any Agatha Christie except for Murder On The Orient Express (1974), which I had just watched the day before.

I had the whole thing figured out about 40 minutes in, when Simon gets shot in the leg, and that movie is 2hr20min.

I still enjoyed it and it's one of the most beloved films of the Who Dunit genre. In fact, it was fun picking out Rian Johnson's references, like the piano.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,960
I interpreted the final shot as the total opposite with the "my house" mug basically meaning "fuck y'all".
That's how I saw it too. Like when she was arguing with them and Marta outright said "it's not what he wanted"

She may not completely fuck them over as she offered to pay for the college tuition for example but the point of all this was to cut them loose because they needed room to grow and live their own life. Create something of their own. And he knew how toxic they were vs how good Marta is.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,136
New York
That's how I saw it too. Like when she was arguing with them and Marta outright said "it's not what he wanted"

She may not completely fuck them over as she offered to pay for the college tuition for example but the point of all this was to cut them loose because they needed room to grow and live their own life. Create something of their own. And he knew how toxic they were vs how good Marta is.
Well I imagine she'll help them to an extent but she obviously isn't going to be bailing them out or letting them double dip. New management so to speak. I don't think though she's going to let them out to dry hence the line from the detective and the mug at the end.
 

Ross62

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,946
Honestly fuck Harlan too. Raising them to be tit-suckers and then expecting them to be self sufficient on there own? Is he serious? That whole family was dependent on you by YOUR design and now you want them to be self reliant out of the blue?
 
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Mr.F

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,974
One thing that occurred to me afterward: Harlan's will doesn't seem to make any provision at all for his mother. What's going to happen to her?
Once it was clear that everyone was "self made" thanks to Harlan's money I assumed the same for him with regard to his mom in some capacity, and that she would be fine/was independently wealthy to some extent.

Edit; or maybe he straight up didn't anticipate her outliving him
 
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HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,915
This was such a cool movie. This might overtake parasite for one of the years best.
 

YaBish

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,292
Saw it tonight and a couple thoughts:

The movie on the surface is a whodunit, but in reality is a reflection on privilege, bigotry, and immigration. The family constantly remarks on how hard of a worker Marta is, how loyal she is. Yet as soon as she threatens their livelihood, they attack her identity as a woman (calling her a bitch, asserting she had sex with Harlan) and as an immigrant of color (her mother’s status, her nationality).

The point of the story is that she and her family (who are all women) are all good people just trying to make it in America. Despite the labels the Thrombeys puts on her, she is none of those things. She is a genuine caring person. To anyone who suggests that she should’ve actually been the killer in a twist ending, you’ve missed the point of the whole movie. It would completely destroy the moral. Immigrants aren’t rapists or murderers. They’re good people just trying to make their lives better, and not at the expense of the downtrodden.

As to the overall production, I thought it was quite good. First thing I’ve seen Ana de Armas in since BR2049, and I actually thought she was much stronger in this film. Daniel Craig was awesome as well. The moment to moment quips were mostly well done. I really enjoyed it.
 

Opto

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,925
Just an all over a good time. Maybe a bit lionizing of Marta, but fuck it, people have to be hit over the head. I imagine there's a version of the story containing more twists and possible Marta masterminding but then it could be interpreted that Marta didn't deserve the money.
 

Zaiven

Member
Nov 12, 2019
37
I really enjoyed it. Murder mysteries set in big houses with a bunch of rich people yelling at each other is kinda my jam. I can never get enough of these. Although I have to say I would've preferred there to be a slight haunted house aspect to it, as that would have sent me over the moon. But that's okay.

As for the crime itself, I figured right away that Marta was mistaken about injecting Harlan with the 100g of morphine, and that it would eventually be revealed that he had the right amount of drugs in his system. The fact that the antidote was missing from the medicine bag (which itself went missing later) was a giveaway that someone had already switched the bottles and wanted Harlan to die from a morphine overdose and make it look like Marta did it. And the fact that Ransom wasn't even in the first half of the movie, while everyone else was, and then featured prominently in the second half, while all the others faded into the background and the family as a whole become something of a single composite character, was the tell that he must've done it.

It was a big letdown that they advertised such a huge cast of enigmatic characters and actors, and then basically stopped using them after the first 30 minutes.
With such a large cast, I figured this would happen.

I loved that so much, I've never seen a whodunnit where you're watching it from the POV of the person who did it. Seeing her trying to mess up Blanc was really great.

Everything with Marta was just stellar, loved her character so much.
This must be the famous Rian Johnson "subversion" I keep hearing about. I thought it was great, especially since they did such a good job making us want to see Marta get away with it.
Yeah the "my house" on the mug final shot was fucking genius.

Also loved how the trailers spoiler jack shit. The outcome of Plummer's death is revealed super early and the film leaps off to become a cavalcade of additional mysteries.

Great way to dispense with a lot of the moldiness and familiarity of whodunnit stories.
I loved how the facts of Harlan's death are never really in doubt. He died by cutting his own throat, period, the end. It was everything else that was mysterious.
Ana de Armas was great, though I was genuinely surprised that she got so much screen time given the ensemble nature.

Really fun movie. Reminded me heavily of Clue - didn't they even mention that in the movie?

I thought the victim had swapped the medicine himself as some elaborate revenge plan on his family.
I'll admit, for a while I was convinced the whole thing was going to end up being revealed as a Xanatos Gambit (see TV Tropes) by Harlan as a sort of final "F You!" to the family. But then I realized he would be jeopardizing Marta too much by giving her such a heavy role in it.
I really liked that the subtext was a bit more than rich people and alt righters suck. It was also about classism and privilage, and the casual racism that follows. Maybe it was a bit too on the nose at times (ancestral home bit comes to mind) but it fits with the sort of loud satirical tone.
The ancestral home bit was supposed to be ridiculous. The other characters in the room even laugh at it.

But I would agree with you--I would prefer people to be willing to look a bit deeper at the message, rather than just nod their heads and say, "Yep! Nazi boy was masturbating on the toilet! Ha, ha! Take that, you alt-righters!" After all, one of the characters was intended to be a pretty by-the-book "SJW," and she was revealed to be a massive hypocrite who abandoned her so-called principles as soon as her financial interests were threatened (which is a very common problem with a lot of these so-called social justice warriors--a large number of them are really just privileged white kids who don't really care about or believe in the things they say they do).
I honestly think she will share the money.
I don't know why she wouldn't. It's not like she has any experience running a large publishing business. She'll definitely need help.

I doubt she'll be keeping all of the Thrombeys around, but I also doubt she'll be dismissing them all out of hand.
Maybe I'm dumb, but I never really understand what the "movie isn't as smart/clever as it thinks criticism" actually means.
To me, the defining example of this type of movie is Unbreakable. That movie is absolutely in love with itself, which is clearly evident from all the long, slow, plodding shots of Bruce Willis mostly standing around looking solemn, and the overly elaborate camera angles.
 

Five Venoms

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28
I really enjoyed it too, but psyched myself out very early in the movie, both because I hadn't quite established the 'rules' of the film (for example, I was suspicious of Linda hearing the steps on the stairwell, since I wasn't sure if the family were 'reliable narrators'), and after seeing Harlan drop the Go board in Marta's flashback I figured the whole thing was some insane double cover-up, and that he'd switched the medicine, the knife he used was a fake (due to the stage prop line, which I figured out right at the end like, "Oh, of course". So by the end I kept thinking it was Ransom and one of the other family members (Harlan?) or something way too far fetched for me to guess. So it was kind of fun to have everything laid out at the end, like you know they would. Alternately I thought Harlan staged the whole thing and hired Benny to solve his own murder. idk

That being said, these kind of movies are extremely my jam, so my opinion is probably skewed in favor of it. Oh, and the cast killed it.
 

Bragg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,560
Arkansas
They didn't prevent her, she didn't go because she was the one who killed him (or so she thought at the time). In fact, they mention several times their surprise that she wasn't there.

In general, they were good to her. It's a point of the film to see how quickly they turn on "family" when their money gets involved.

Once the "reveal" of Marta's mistake happened, I wasn't sure where the film was going. On the one hand, I did entertain the idea that she had actually masterminded the whole thing, but on the other hand, she was awfully clumsy in execution.

Plus, even when everything seemed wrapped up nicely (way too early), I kept wondering "Who woke up the dogs at 3AM?". Even knowing it was Ransom, as the only one who elicits that reaction from the dogs, I couldn't figure out what part he played. It didn't occur to me that someone else had switched the vials, I just thought maybe Marta was mistaken about switching the vials in the first place (which wound up being half true).

The Blanc character was good, and they mention how he's Holmes-like and even considers himself as such. But without all the pieces in place, it's kind of funny how utterly clueless he is throughout (but it works because he knows he's clueless).

And of course, donuts.
They all fed her the "I wanted you there but was out voted" line as cover. They were only "good" to her on on a surface level.

Did you notice how they all kept getting her nationality wrong?

Did you notice Don Johnson (I think) hand her (the nurse) a dirty dish when he was done with it?

All the "we think of her as family" was shown to just be lip service.
 

chairhome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
631
Orlando
They all fed her the "I wanted you there but was out voted" line as cover. They were only "good" to her on on a surface level.

Did you notice how they all kept getting her nationality wrong?

Did you notice Don Johnson (I think) hand her (the nurse) a dirty dish when he was done with it?

All the "we think of her as family" was shown to just be lip service.
Bingo
 

Xun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
910
London
I got a chance to see it yesterday.

I don’t have much to say, but what a truly fantastic film.

The actors were all at the top of their game, and you could tell they were enjoying the hell out of it.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,264
They all fed her the "I wanted you there but was out voted" line as cover. They were only "good" to her on on a surface level.

Did you notice how they all kept getting her nationality wrong?

Did you notice Don Johnson (I think) hand her (the nurse) a dirty dish when he was done with it?

All the "we think of her as family" was shown to just be lip service.
The first time you hear the Outvoted line, seemed like it might have been sincere. By the third, it’s clear they’re all just lying and presenting a facade
 

Kylac

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,569
MA
i like this movie but please remove all instances of "weaksauce" from hollywood scripts.

yours truly,
kylac
 
Dec 2, 2017
6,768
They all fed her the "I wanted you there but was out voted" line as cover. They were only "good" to her on on a surface level.

Did you notice how they all kept getting her nationality wrong?

Did you notice Don Johnson (I think) hand her (the nurse) a dirty dish when he was done with it?

All the "we think of her as family" was shown to just be lip service.
Thats what I thought. Like if all of them claimed to want her there but were 'outvoted' it meant none of them wanted her there.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,183
Just saw it and thought it was really good. As mentioned, murder mysteries with rich people yelling at each other tend to be nice. The movie kept me on a ride. I suspected the vials were switched, especially when Harlan laid out his plan without a hint of being drugged up, but I didn't know how that would come into play. I knew there would have to be a twist only after Marta confessed, because I knew the film couldn't just end there. Up until that, I didn't see it coming, though I did suspect Ransom of burning down the medical examiner's office.

The classism and racism aspects were clear as day, particularly with multiple family members telling Marta they were outvoted and how quickly they turned on her. Plus, you know, some of them being open Trump supporters.

I was glad they didn't twist things too much, by having Marta be a deliberate murderer or having Blanc be evil or something.
 

JigglesBunny

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,896
Chicago
Ultimately, I don’t think Marta gives them anything. It was Harlan’s wish that the family be cut off in order to make something of themselves, Marta would want to respect that wish. You could argue that she “has a good heart” and that would mean she has enough pity to throw them some money but I think that her heart would instead tell her to respect Harlan’s wishes. Also, those final two shots are the ultimate “fuck you” to the family. Top shelf schadenfreude.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,466
Just saw it and had a very enjoyable time. Was not aware that Ana de Armas would have the starring role.
 

Red UFO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
525
Saw it tonight and a couple thoughts:

The movie on the surface is a whodunit, but in reality is a reflection on privilege, bigotry, and immigration. The family constantly remarks on how hard of a worker Marta is, how loyal she is. Yet as soon as she threatens their livelihood, they attack her identity as a woman (calling her a bitch, asserting she had sex with Harlan) and as an immigrant of color (her mother’s status, her nationality).

The point of the story is that she and her family (who are all women) are all good people just trying to make it in America. Despite the labels the Thrombeys puts on her, she is none of those things. She is a genuine caring person. To anyone who suggests that she should’ve actually been the killer in a twist ending, you’ve missed the point of the whole movie. It would completely destroy the moral. Immigrants aren’t rapists or murderers. They’re good people just trying to make their lives better, and not at the expense of the downtrodden.

As to the overall production, I thought it was quite good. First thing I’ve seen Ana de Armas in since BR2049, and I actually thought she was much stronger in this film. Daniel Craig was awesome as well. The moment to moment quips were mostly well done. I really enjoyed it.
This lad gets it
 

Coldman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
487
Honestly fuck Harlan too. Raising them to be tit-suckers and then expecting them to be self sufficient on there own? Is he serious? That whole family was dependent on you by YOUR design and now you want them to be self reliant out of the blue?
The film definitely doesn't want to leave you with the impression that Harlan was a great guy or anything. He clearly fucked up, and him cutting the family off was his effort to make up for his mistakes in life, but like Blanc says, Marta won out in the end by being a totally different, better person than anyone in that family - including Harlan.

But he has to be a kind old fatherly figure to Marta first and foremost so you don't question why she put faith in him, so the whole "Harlan's an ass" thing isn't pressed too hard.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,588
can I just say I appreciate that the movie showed how even presumably liberal people were total hypocrites too? It reminded me of that blind dude from Get out, or the father.

Honestly fuck Harlan too. Raising them to be tit-suckers and then expecting them to be self sufficient on there own? Is he serious? That whole family was dependent on you by YOUR design and now you want them to be self reliant out of the blue?
Honestly I agree. He fucked up royally there; some real bad parenting.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,393
One thing I think I missed: what was Harlan's beef with Linda (Jamie Lee Curtis)? Like, her husband was cheating, and her son was evil (moreso than anyone realized), and her company wasn't entirely self-made vis a vis the million dollar loan, but at the end of the day she herself hadn't really fucked up, had she? She'd been the most independently successful of all his kids. Did I miss something Ransom said about her company?

Obviously after the shit hit the fan she joined in (slash lead) the family in ganging up on Marta, but I figured there had to be a reason she was taken out of the will, right?
 

Envelope

Member
Oct 25, 2017
622
I loved this film precisely because it didn't try to be cleverer than a classic whodunnit, it just brought some fun ideas to the table and nailed the execution with a modern flavor.
 

Coldman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
487
One thing I think I missed: what was Harlan's beef with Linda (Jamie Lee Curtis)? Like, her husband was cheating, and her son was evil (moreso than anyone realized), and her company wasn't entirely self-made vis a vis the million dollar loan, but at the end of the day she herself hadn't really fucked up, had she? She'd been the most independently successful of all his kids. Did I miss something Ransom said about her company?

Obviously after the shit hit the fan she joined in (slash lead) the family in ganging up on Marta, but I figured there had to be a reason she was taken out of the will, right?
Well, whatever she gets left by Harlan, Richard gets too, essentially. So that's one reason. The other is that Harlan was likely all too aware of how Linda was really a total ass.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,627
One thing I think I missed: what was Harlan's beef with Linda (Jamie Lee Curtis)? Like, her husband was cheating, and her son was evil (moreso than anyone realized), and her company wasn't entirely self-made vis a vis the million dollar loan, but at the end of the day she herself hadn't really fucked up, had she? She'd been the most independently successful of all his kids. Did I miss something Ransom said about her company?

Obviously after the shit hit the fan she joined in (slash lead) the family in ganging up on Marta, but I figured there had to be a reason she was taken out of the will, right?
He didn't have a beef with her. She was completely self-sufficient, and she didn't go completely nuts until they lost the house. Outing Don Johnson was for her benefit.
 

Russell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,436
Still can't get over Daniel's accent lol. I'm also happy he gave it all to the maid and the family didn't get shit, lmao.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,269
Imagine hating your family so much that you kill yourself out of spite to accelerate your nurse inheriting the fortune.
 
Honestly fuck Harlan too. Raising them to be tit-suckers and then expecting them to be self sufficient on there own? Is he serious? That whole family was dependent on you by YOUR design and now you want them to be self reliant out of the blue?
Of the three branches of the family, Linda was self-sufficient (he loaned her money to start a business, which is far from unreasonable, and it's apparently been quite successful); Joni, his daughter-in-law (I don't think Harlan can be blamed for her character), was actively stealing from him and failing at her own independent business; the only one of the three who was dependent on him was Walt, as he ended up running the publishing company.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,477
That was really good. Rian clearly has an axe to grind with people who yell at him on Twitter though lmao. They're shitty people anyway so fuck em

Harlan is a complete psychopath.
 

Ross62

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,946
Of the three branches of the family, Linda was self-sufficient (he loaned her money to start a business, which is far from unreasonable, and it's apparently been quite successful); Joni, his daughter-in-law (I don't think Harlan can be blamed for her character), was actively stealing from him and failing at her own independent business; the only one of the three who was dependent on him was Walt, as he ended up running the publishing company.
Linda couldn’t be entirely self sufficient after the way she acted when the Will was read. Ransom was entirely dependent on Harlan’s money. Cutting Joni off for stealing was justified, but that tuition money seemed highly egregious. And not only did Harlan make Walt dependent on him, he also admittedly thought him beneath him.


how do you say this when Ransom was in the same movie
Harlan did say Ransom was a splitting image of him.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,588
DC hot damn he played a live incarnation of my favorite detective of all time (though way goofier) (Aloysius Pendergast - Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child)
LOL I was thinking this as I walked out the theater. "Man, this reminds me of that char, wish he could be in a film some day."
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
The phrase “the nazi boy masturbating in the bathroom” has played on repeat in my head for the last 24 hours.

This is not a complaint.