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Knives Out | Spoiler Thread | Whodonut?

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,166
Also there was a moment that just had me oozing with disgust. It wasn't big, but it was a gesture that, almost on its own, tells you everything you need to know. When the family is around the fireplace talking immigration and Trump, when Random's dad pulls Marta over, a girl who is "treated like family" and who he is now using as a prop for his argument as an example of "one of the good ones." As he is making his shitty point, without even looking or asking, he gestures his empty plate to Marta as if she's his maid. Not even "oh are you going back to the kitchen? Do you mind taking this?" He just hands it to her as if it is an expectation of her job, which it clearly is not. She neither works for him or anyone else but Harlan.

Like, you could turn the audio off in that moment, ignore every other shitty thing being said by this family, and that gesture tells you exactly how he views the power dynamics. I was just like "oh fuuuuuuck youuuuuu"
I'm not super familiar with Don Johnson as an actor, but I will say this: he played, without question, the most exquisitely punchable asshole in all of cinema this year. Richard was, out in public, what the rest of the family pretended NOT to be.

For most of the first third of the movie I kept asking myself why he and Linda would even be married, because they certainly didn't seem close, and Linda's the one with all the money. The fact they all turned into pathetic, spiteful backstabbers the second an inheritance was threatened made it all make sense.
 

Zaiven

Member
Nov 12, 2019
37
This could also always be shes a student taking her sweet time to graduate or changing majors often. I graduated from a bachelor's in 5 years because I switched majors late in my junior year. I don't think they ever outright specified if she's an undergrad or doing a masters did they? Cause if so she could have always gone straight to a masters degree. 5 years just tells me she's not someone who had their path and goals to be a straight shot.
Meg strikes me as one of those kids who really doesn't want to face life outside college and is more than happy taking her sweet time with her "studies."

There is absolutely no denying the poetry that the white feminist studying something related treats the immigrant woman badly and betrays her though.
I hope more people pick up on this, rather than just zooming straight in on the "Nazi boy masturbating on the toilet!" There are lots and lots of entitled white kids out there who'll talk a good game about "social justice" but either aren't actually doing anything about it, or don't really believe in the causes they say they believe in.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,588
I'm not super familiar with Don Johnson as an actor, but I will say this: he played, without question, the most exquisitely punchable asshole in all of cinema this year. Richard was, out in public, what the rest of the family pretended NOT to be.
The dude's appearance in the film reminded me vaguely of Steve Bannon, so there was that for me too.

I hope more people pick up on this, rather than just zooming straight in on the "Nazi boy masturbating on the toilet!" There are lots and lots of entitled white kids out there who'll talk a good game about "social justice" but either aren't actually doing anything about it, or don't really believe in the causes they say they believe in.
Exaaactly
 

Mackaveli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
607
Any movie recommendations or tv shows that are similar to this? I've watched Columbo with my parents back in the day.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,636
Also there was a moment that just had me oozing with disgust. It wasn't big, but it was a gesture that, almost on its own, tells you everything you need to know. When the family is around the fireplace talking immigration and Trump, when Random's dad pulls Marta over, a girl who is "treated like family" and who he is now using as a prop for his argument as an example of "one of the good ones." As he is making his shitty point, without even looking or asking, he gestures his empty plate to Marta as if she's his maid. Not even "oh are you going back to the kitchen? Do you mind taking this?" He just hands it to her as if it is an expectation of her job, which it clearly is not. She neither works for him or anyone else but Harlan.

Like, you could turn the audio off in that moment, ignore every other shitty thing being said by this family, and that gesture tells you exactly how he views the power dynamics. I was just like "oh fuuuuuuck youuuuuu"
Johnson ad-libbed that, apparently.
 

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,395
Johnson ad-libbed that, apparently.
If I recall (from the Q&A I attended): Don added that in after a take or two, but in the first attempt added in, he looked at Marta and asked her to take the plate away. Rian didn't think it was working and was going to scrap the idea (too on the nose), but Don then decided in the next to just hand it to her like we saw - and it was probably the moment that stuck most with me in the film.
 

Arc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
Also there was a moment that just had me oozing with disgust. It wasn't big, but it was a gesture that, almost on its own, tells you everything you need to know. When the family is around the fireplace talking immigration and Trump, when Random's dad pulls Marta over, a girl who is "treated like family" and who he is now using as a prop for his argument as an example of "one of the good ones." As he is making his shitty point, without even looking or asking, he gestures his empty plate to Marta as if she's his maid. Not even "oh are you going back to the kitchen? Do you mind taking this?" He just hands it to her as if it is an expectation of her job, which it clearly is not. She neither works for him or anyone else but Harlan.

Like, you could turn the audio off in that moment, ignore every other shitty thing being said by this family, and that gesture tells you exactly how he views the power dynamics. I was just like "oh fuuuuuuck youuuuuu"
Johnson's performance is going to get overlooked because of how great everyone else was, but he was still really good. We've all met this kind of asshole.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,136
Even the supposedly liberal daughter provides information to her family that could put Marta's mother at risk of deportation, knowing full-well at how illegal immigrants are treated by the US government, all for her tuition. And even after Marta expresses that she's willing to help her, the daughter immediately hangs up once she knows she's getting what she wants.

That whole family fucking suuuuuuuuucks.
Her betrayal was the biggest gut punch.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,340
I pegged that the contents of the two vials were mislabeled from the start, but I didn't get the why or how until after Ransom involved himself.
 

Randdalf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,664
Really fun, enjoyable, clever film. Great performances. However. I don't think they quite pulled off the whodunnit where you knew whodunnit. I guess you could call it a theydiddit. After that reveal, obviously there were lots of loose ends and, of course, the twist was we didn't know whodiddit all along, but without that central mystery clearly driving it along I wasn't quite hooked. It was still nice having all the bits slot into place at the end though.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,824
A really solid film in all aspects. Even the contrivances to make the plot move along are easily forgivable in the wake of these expert performances and lovely pacing. The movie transitions so well between acts that you hardly notice it. As soon as pacing on a certain plot thread really gets started (the whodunnit, then the cover-up, then the confrontation), the energy gets transferred quite seamlessly into the next train car in a way that never really betrays the characters or intrigue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,036
Did anyone look at the trivia on IMDB for this movie?

Jacob Thrombey (Jaeden Martell), the preppy grandson in the film who's always on his phone, was a character influenced by the people that voiced their criticisms online over writer/director Rian Johnson's previous film, Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017). Johnson apparently thought of those people who took issue with his work as "trolls" or "man-babies", despite the overwhelming amount of people , notably Mark Hamill among them, who were unhappy with his handling of the movie and the character of Luke Skywalker.
"I am not a troll or man-baby, but I am going to use the IMDB trivia section to argue about The Last Jedi!"

Anyway, solid movie. Clever writing and story, but I expected it to be funnier given the trailers. Glad I did not buy the 30 dollar snack pack for the movie that my theater has been advertising for nearly a month (who spends that much on movie food!?!!?)
 
Nov 11, 2017
477
Dude, I just now realized the executor was Frank Oz. Though to my credit, he wasn't making a muppet voice, so I feel like I can get a pass on that one. Great cast, great movie all around.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Rian Johnson's Knives Out, which opened Wednesday, is likewise feasting on strong numbers at the holiday box office in a win for original, midrange pics. From Lionsgate and MRC, the whodunnit earned $10.7 million on Wednesday for a projected five-day debut of $42 million-plus, well ahead of expectations.
If this ends up being a breakout hit I'd love to watch another movie or two with Craig's Blanc
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,588

If this ends up being a breakout hit I'd love to watch another movie or two with Craig's Blanc
I would love that too, although I’m unsure of how well he could be pulled off in other circumstances/with other characters around him by rian. From what I heard Johnson kind of just stumbled upon the concept of the story/ending and came up with things from there
 

Kalmakov

Member
Sep 10, 2019
820
“The Last Jedi” of murder-mystery movies.

Like TLJ, KO seems to exist to subvert tropes of it’s genre. But the movie wasn’t as smart as it thought it was. Seemingly the lack of a twist was the major twist. A suicide remained a suicide. Chris Evans entered the movie as the likeliest suspect of the “murder” and it pretty much ran a straight line back to him by the end.

Personal opinion but the lack of surprise should not be the surprise.

Maybe a better “twist = no twist” would have been the closing shot of Marta drinking from the “My house. My coffee. My rules.” mug and then she giving a subtle smile before cutting to credits. The realization that Marta was in fact the “murderer”. And the murder weapon? The family’s greed.

The movies continually establishes that the family kept fucking themselves over and then further by attempting to amend with greed. And Marta is the innocent girl who accidentally “kills” and then spends the movie trying to lie and obstruct the truth. That then she would be revealed to have used the family’s greed as a tool to con them out of their own fortune and fool the maybe-not-as-good-as-he-thinks-he-is legendary detective with her “good heart”.

IDK feels like Marta actually being the bad guy would have worked better to subvert murder-mystery tropes than pretty much knowing the whole story in the first 20-30 mins and then waiting for the movie to get there.
So you wanted them to undercut the anti alt right/pro immigration message of the movie in favor of making the Latina girl that they all hated for being an immigrant actually as bad as their delusions convinced them she was.

Yeah, fuck no.
 

admataY

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,183
I like how even when Michal Shannon plays a meek weakling of a man he comes off as terrifying .
Also I was breaking my head in trying to understand How the deep buttery smooth voice of that Lawyer was so familiar , and just now I read he is played by Frank Oz ??
One last random thought- It was great to see Daniel Craig so animated and chewing scenery with coolness, last I saw him was in SPECTRE and in that movie he looks like he was rather be dead then keep filming .
 

Ottaro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
973
I like how even when Michal Shannon plays a meek weakling of a man he comes off as terrifying .
Also I was breaking my head in trying to understand How the deep buttery smooth voice of that Lawyer was so familiar , and just now I read he is played by Frank Oz ??
One last random thought- It was great to see Daniel Craig so animated and chewing scenery with coolness, last I saw him was in SPECTRE and in that movie he looks like he was rather be dead then keep filming .
You should give Logan Lucky a watch! He legit looks like he’s having a ton of fun in that movie.
 

TheXbox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,672
Exceptional movie from top to bottom. Craig's delivery when he tells de Armas she's a good nurse broke my heart. His entire speech in the finale was just incredible. The only point that strains credibility is the burning of the toxicology building... which I imagine is a lot harder to pull off (and get away with) than this movie supposes.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,865
Singapore
Really fun, enjoyable, clever film. Great performances. However. I don't think they quite pulled off the whodunnit where you knew whodunnit. I guess you could call it a theydiddit. After that reveal, obviously there were lots of loose ends and, of course, the twist was we didn't know whodiddit all along, but without that central mystery clearly driving it along I wasn't quite hooked. It was still nice having all the bits slot into place at the end though.
It's a whodunit where the original murder attempt actually failed, and the murderer tries to keep going with his plan and murdered someone else later!
 

the_id

Member
Oct 25, 2017
447
Has to be one of the best movies we’ve watched this year.

Marta and Benoit Blanc were my two favourite characters.

Daniel Craig with his Southern drawl was brilliant. I think it was supposed to come across as unnatural and Craig pulled it off.

Rian Johnson is one damn talented writer and director.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
So you wanted them to undercut the anti alt right/pro immigration message of the movie in favor of making the Latina girl that they all hated for being an immigrant actually as bad as their delusions convinced them she was.

Yeah, fuck no.
As a disclaimer I really liked the movie and I'll post my thoughts later, but I don't think there was a particularly strong anti alt-right/pro immigration message. The message never went further than basic insults against trumpers and alt-right zoomers.
 

Spyder_Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
This is basically an Ace Attorney movie without Phoenix Wright I love it.

I feel like we were missing one last gotcha though. Chris Evans as the bad guy sounded way too obvious (though he's super compelling) and I would've loved to see something bigger like the whole family was in on it or something. Still the characters and performances were spot on and I wish more screenwriters wrote in alt-right assholes just so the other characters can dunk on them.
 

ryan299

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,271
What are some of the great whodunnit films?
I've seen Orient Express.
Abbott and Costello have some If you like their comedy and don’t mind black and white.

Anybody else disappointed with the twist? Ransom was my second guess, with my first being a plan by Harlan because he wanted a real mystery to play out after years of writing.

I enjoyed it but just found the ending to be the weakest part of the film and the twist just kinda hastily put together. Ransom’s plan wasn’t all that impressive.
 

Zaiven

Member
Nov 12, 2019
37

If this ends up being a breakout hit I'd love to watch another movie or two with Craig's Blanc
I would, too. Although I wouldn't want them to just throw something together. I would definitely want them to take their time and craft something that's just as well put-together as this one. And I'm also not sure how well Blanc would function without a character like Marta around him constantly (although I guess they could always just have another character play a similar role in a sequel).

As a disclaimer I really liked the movie and I'll post my thoughts later, but I don't think there was a particularly strong anti alt-right/pro immigration message. The message never went further than basic insults against trumpers and alt-right zoomers.
Okay, I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but you've thrown a new one at me here. What's a "zoomer"?
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
I would, too. Although I wouldn't want them to just throw something together. I would definitely want them to take their time and craft something that's just as well put-together as this one. And I'm also not sure how well Blanc would function without a character like Marta around him constantly (although I guess they could always just have another character play a similar role in a sequel).


Okay, I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but you've thrown a new one at me here. What's a "zoomer"?
Hahaha. It’s the generational term for the generation after millennials. Aka gen z. The 14yo son of Harlan’s son is what that’s referring to.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
So just to post my thoughts on the movie...

I thought it was pretty good, as did my family. 7.5 or 8/10. The overall plot is very well executed. I actually bought ransom and his nihilistic rogue with a heart of gold act (at least for a little bit). Daniel Craig's character is amazing. Blanc's callout to the spot of blood on her shoe at the very end of the movie is amazing. I did think the momentum faded somewhat towards the ending, but it was a very clever plot. The final scene with Ransom stabbing her with the fake knife was very well done.

I think Rian Johnson is very good at crafting tight narratives but his characters fall somewhat flat. He reminds me of Patrick Rothfuss in that respect. I wanted more time with the characters. As an example, show me more about this alt-right kid instead of one line of dialogue about Marta being an anchor baby. I guess you've only got so much time to tell the story though.

Overall, if you were bitter about TLJ don't let this stop you from seeing the movie. It's just a really fun film -- one of those films where you sit down, glance down at your watch and two hours have passed. I would recommend it.

edit:

just to expand on the whole alt-right/conservative call-out aspects of this film, I think it's been very much overrated in the media. There's a few references to Harlans sociopathic alt-right 15yo grandkid and his stereotypical trump-supporting son. Otherwise, there really isn't much political commentary in the film. His kids are just shit -- some are trumpers, some are stereotypical healing crystal Jill Stein brand liberals, and some are apolitical. It's more of a class-based commentary on how wealth can spoil children than anything. Not that that's a bad thing -- I just wouldn't go into the movie thinking its a commentary on current politics.
 
Last edited:

PogChamp

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,256
I like how even when Michal Shannon plays a meek weakling of a man he comes off as terrifying .
Also I was breaking my head in trying to understand How the deep buttery smooth voice of that Lawyer was so familiar , and just now I read he is played by Frank Oz ??
One last random thought- It was great to see Daniel Craig so animated and chewing scenery with coolness, last I saw him was in SPECTRE and in that movie he looks like he was rather be dead then keep filming .
Yeah it was so much fun to see Craig in a heartfelt role. The scene where he gently talks to the Nana was a real standout.
 
Jan 3, 2018
773
Overall it was good, although I was really uninvested for about 20 minutes after the first reveal.

I found Harlan's plan to maintain Marta's innocence all sorts of convoluted insanity.

At first, it was interesting to have a mystery writer telling someone how to cover up a "murder," but the plan involves like 6 steps (one of which is climbing to the third floor on an exterior trellis), and she's just a nurse. If she gets one thing wrong, it's gonna raise some serious suspicions with detectives, and given how famous he is, I don't think they will be average-intelligence detectives. He also doesn't consider the whole toxicology angle. With a suicide that comes out of nowhere, the family will definitely want a report done, and that's gonna reveal the morphine. Harlan's plan also involves Marta hiding the truth from detectives, but Harlan also should know how detectives work. Marta can omit truth all she wants, but if they ask her one point blank question, she'll have to lie. Which would be fine if she didn't admit the puking/lying connection, but she does. Just say it's a ridiculous idea and that you're feeling ill that day, done.

It seems like he could have done any number of other things, like maybe write a suicide note explaining that he overdosed himself while Marta was downstairs talking to someone, or something to that effect. But then I guess there wouldn't be a movie.
 

Jinaar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
500
Edmonton AB
Just saw it, loved it. Loved the take on modern day Americanism and it's self-deserving nature it holds and throws a warm mouthful of vomit onto it. :) I would write more but I loved the social commentary of it all. Well done, Rian!
 

MattyG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,199
As a disclaimer I really liked the movie and I'll post my thoughts later, but I don't think there was a particularly strong anti alt-right/pro immigration message. The message never went further than basic insults against trumpers and alt-right zoomers.
I saw the entire resolution of the film to be very pro immigrant, at least in the sense that it's showing the disingenuousness of the anti-immigrant rhetoric that people like Richard were spewing. Her keeping the house and money and shutting them out is a direct answer to his earlier speech about "you have to earn your way." She earned her way by being more kind and caring to their father than they ever were, but once she had done that they were like "no don't earn it *that* way!"

I agree that it wasn't the thesis of the movie or anything, but I think it went a bit beyond just shallow low-blow insults
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,236
edit:

just to expand on the whole alt-right/conservative call-out aspects of this film, I think it's been very much overrated in the media. There's a few references to Harlans sociopathic alt-right 15yo grandkid and his stereotypical trump-supporting son. Otherwise, there really isn't much political commentary in the film. His kids are just shit -- some are trumpers, some are stereotypical healing crystal Jill Stein brand liberals, and some are apolitical. It's more of a class-based commentary on how wealth can spoil children than anything. Not that that's a bad thing -- I just wouldn't go into the movie thinking its a commentary on current politics.
There's more to it than that. With how her mother is an undocumented immigrant, and how her best friend who is some sort of social studies major betrays that to the alt righty family members the moment her money comes into question. Or the ancestral house that was bought from a Pakistani bit. Or in general commenting on the nature of wealth and being self-made versus inheriting.

edit:

and this:

I saw the entire resolution of the film to be very pro immigrant, at least in the sense that it's showing the disingenuousness of the anti-immigrant rhetoric that people like Richard were spewing. Her keeping the house and money and shutting them out is a direct answer to his earlier speech about "you have to earn your way." She earned her way by being more kind and caring to their father than they ever were, but once she had done that they were like "no don't earn it *that* way!"

I agree that it wasn't the thesis of the movie or anything, but I think it went a bit beyond just shallow low-blow insults
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
I saw the entire resolution of the film to be very pro immigrant, at least in the sense that it's showing the disingenuousness of the anti-immigrant rhetoric that people like Richard were spewing. Her keeping the house and money and shutting them out is a direct answer to his earlier speech about "you have to earn your way." She earned her way by being more kind and caring to their father than they ever were, but once she had done that they were like "no don't earn it *that* way!"

I agree that it wasn't the thesis of the movie or anything, but I think it went a bit beyond just shallow low-blow insults
I get what you're saying -- her ultimate comeuppance was based on the fact that she was one person who was actually kind to Harlan. Whether you base that on her being the daughter of an illegal immigrant or just being a poor, working-class american is probably up to interpretation. Again, I think of it as more of a message of class struggle rather than a message on contemporary politics. As in, their status as alt-right/ contemporary conservatives is more a symptom of growing up as spoiled rich children.

There's more to it than that. With how her mother is an undocumented immigrant, and how her best friend who is some sort of social studies major betrays that to the alt righty family members the moment her money comes into question. Or the ancestral house that was bought from a Pakistani bit. Or in general commenting on the nature of wealth and being self-made versus inheriting.

edit:

and this:
I don't think we disagree -- it's not so much about contemporary politics as much as class struggle. Ransom made a reference towards the granddaughters "SJW" major, but still, she was as rotten as all the rest. Maybe more insidious, since she hid her actual thoughts behind a fake veneer of kindness towards "the help." To me, that's a part of the message. There's 4-5 different descendants of Harlan with differing political viewpoints, but when it comes down to the wire they really just care about the money. Fuck all the rest of it.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,236
I get what you're saying -- her ultimate comeuppance was based on the fact that she was one person who was actually kind to Harlan. Whether you base that on her being the daughter of an illegal immigrant or just being a poor, working-class american is probably up to interpretation. Again, I think of it as more of a message of class struggle rather than a message on contemporary politics. As in, their status as alt-right/ contemporary conservatives is more a symptom of growing up as spoiled rich children.



I don't think we disagree -- it's not so much about contemporary politics as much as class struggle. Ransom made a reference towards the granddaughters "SJW" major, but still, she was as rotten as all the rest. Maybe more insidious, since she hid her actual thoughts behind a fake veneer of kindness towards "the help." To me, that's a part of the message. There's 4-5 different descendants of Harlan with differing political viewpoints, but when it comes down to the wire they really just care about the money. Fuck all the rest of it.
that sounds like commentary on current politics to me
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
that sounds like commentary on current politics to me
Current/contemporary politics isn't the best term for me to use. What I'm trying to communicate is that the message Rian was conveying (IMO) is more about wealth inequality. A show like Watchmen, for instance, is more focused on racial inequality and its effects.

edit: Again, not that it's particularly important either way. It's really just a fun film. But that's what I got from it.
 

Soulnado

Member
Nov 7, 2019
188
So the drop of blood didn't have to do anything with the case huh? That's some Rosebud level shit lmao.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,236
So the drop of blood didn't have to do anything with the case huh? That's some Rosebud level shit lmao.
It did? It was blood splatter from when he killed himself and it got on her shoe because she was there when he did it, and Benoit saw it very early on and knew she was there when it happened, so he decided to keep her close to get to the truth.
 

Soulnado

Member
Nov 7, 2019
188
It did? It was blood splatter from when he killed himself and it got on her shoe because she was there when he did it, and Benoit saw it very early on and knew she was there when it happened, so he decided to keep her close to get to the truth.
Wait, wasn't he several feet away when he slit his throat? She only opened the door and didn't really walk inside the room.