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Kojima: Death Stranding Had Stronger Criticism in the US, Possibly Because It Flies Above Shooters

riotous

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
Servbot24 said:
I'm American and I didnt take it that way. I think it's undeniable that the game only appeals to a certain audience.
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He's claiming Americans have a difficulty understanding original products; and that French or Italian people have a greater ability to appreciate original products.

If it's not directly insulting to you then you have to at least recognize the numerous dog-whistles? Even throwing in a mention of first person shooters to boot (which people endlessly use as an insult on this forum as well.)

I'm not even really disagreeing with him and I am not personally insulted (I think it's funny); just saying it's pretty plainly an insult.
 
PennyStonks

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
I'm enjoying this game a lot, but I can't imagine what It would be like without having simultaneous access to my PC. An abundance of pointless stuff that just slows things down. Terrible UI. Obtuse controls for a few things.

e: this was meant for the OT. Will leave it cause w/e
 
OmegaDL50

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,690
Philadelphia, PA
Bigg said:
I don't love IGN by any means but that meme is disingenuous garbage.

If you don't like IGN's review, then fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But saying "every opinion on this site is invalid because they liked some baby game for the Wii" is stupid, full stop.
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Yup. Review scores don't exist in a bubble. It reminds me when Nintendogs was heavily criticized because of it's 40/40 from Famitsu when people used totally unrelated but still highly reviewed games to discredit it.

It's like trying to compare a Racing Game with a 2D Fighter on purely the numeric score they are given when these are two completely different games targeting two completely different audiences.
 
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Mobius

Mobius

Banned
Oct 10, 2019
246
He's right NA players typically like shooter but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are calling his game "not fun" and an "empty world". Im liking the game's environment rn but everything else is meh.
 
Servbot24

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,147
riotous said:
He's claiming Americans have a difficulty understanding original products; and that French or Italian people have a greater ability to appreciate original products.

If it's not directly insulting to you then you have to at least recognize the numerous dog-whistles? Even throwing in a mention of first person shooters to boot (which people endlessly use as an insult on this forum as well.)

I'm not even really disagreeing with him and I am not personally insulted (I think it's funny); just saying it's pretty plainly an insult.
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I guess so. Maybe it's because I already assumed the same things before he said it, and frankly I thought most of this forum did too. I would never consider it an insult to say "this JRPG May be more successful in Japan" or "this military game may be more successful in the US". These are things that I think most of us already understood, and are primarily upset because Kojima is talking about it applying to Death Stranding - which I don't think is really accurate, but who gives a shit. Or more accurately, people shouldn't give a shit.
 
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TheChungusAmongUs

TheChungusAmongUs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,610
I am really digging DS...

But I can't believe Kojima the mad man made a game about reconnecting America and the main message is help one another, and is going "yeah, Americans won't like this"
 
riotous

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
Servbot24 said:
I guess so. Maybe it's because I already assumed the same things before he said it, and frankly I thought most of this forum did too. I would never consider it an insult to say "this JRPG May be more successful in Japan" or "this military game may be more successful in the US". These are things that I think most of us already understood, and are primarily upset because Kojima is talking about it applying to Death Stranding - which I don't think is really accurate, but who gives a shit. Or more accurately, people shouldn't give a shit.
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Those statements aren't insulting though.

You are ignoring him literally describing one party as having a greater ability, and the other not capable of understanding.
 
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Servbot24

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,147
riotous said:
Those statements aren't insulting though.

You are informing him literally describing one party as having a greater ability, and the other not capable of understanding.
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Eh. If I write a psychedelic novel and I expect corporate types or religious types not to get it, I don't think that makes me a pretentious asshole, even if I end up being wrong.
 
ry-dog

ry-dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,180
Forgetting that Journey and Gone Home won game of the year awards and sold very well. Maybe the issue is you made a 60 hour delivery game, when it should have been 20 hours?
 
riotous

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
Servbot24 said:
Eh. If I write a psychedelic novel and I expect corporate types or religious types not to get it, I don't think that makes me a pretentious asshole, even if I end up being wrong.
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No that wouldn't make you as much of an asshole; what does that have to do with these incredibly different statements Kojima made?

If you tell someone you don't think they'll relate to something psychedelic, you are just assuming they don't have experience with psychedelics.

If you tell someone you think they lack the ability to understand or appreciate anything unique, you are assuming they are some shallow idiot. Same as praising certain groups artistic sensibility; that means you think they understand more complex art. You are praising them, and you'd be insulting anyone you claimed did not have artistic sensibility.
 

Sorpano00

Banned
Oct 31, 2018
14
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
 
Van Bur3n

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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An actual Italian among us? By my spurs and six shooter, I ain't feel worthy of your presence. Tell us, oh exotic man from across the sea, what does the Death Stranding mean? In layman terms please, for my time spent practicing my draw has not allowed me the opportunity to understand complex vocabulary proper like.
 
Mistouze

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,434
Kojima's downfall will be him being "too big" to have someone around him being able to tell him to shut the fuck up or that he's doing/saying dumb shit in his games or outside of making games.

There might be some mistranslation shenanigans here, but you just don't act like a bitch like that when your game is getting an 80+ score on metacritic.
 

Sorpano00

Banned
Oct 31, 2018
14
Van Bur3n said:
An actual Italian among us? By my spurs and six shooter, I ain't feel worthy of your presence. Tell us, oh exotic man from across the sea, what does the Death Stranding mean? In layman terms please, for my time spent practicing my draw has not allowed me the opportunity to understand complex vocabulary proper like.
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Ahah that was fun, thanks. Death Stranding is the Kojima vision of post-capitalism. You're welcome.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
This is incredibly pretentious to the point of painful. Some people don't like the game - some do. It doesn't map to taste or intelligence or anything else.

Its very offensive when people talk about art as though its "only for us the rest of you don't get it".

What a horribly rude man.
 
Rixan

Rixan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,401
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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Don't tell me how to feel

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play some Modern Warfare while shunning naked bodies
 
RuudGullitsittingonashed

RuudGullitsittingonashed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
213
Since the flies higher comment was clarified/taken out out by the article I'm glad the thread topic wasn't changed to reflect this. Hopefully more bashing of Kojima threads before the week is out. Keep up the Lord's work.

This thread reminds me of the shitting on psvr before other companies dipped their toes in.
 
Aurc

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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The problem isn't that he highlighted differences in taste and culture, as culture informs taste, after all. There will always be differences between nations, that much is common sense. The problem is that he's sidestepping criticism in a very pathetic way. Americans are capable of appreciating art games and non-shooters, but perhaps not Death Stranding as much, because it was literally shrouded in secrecy and turned out to be just another open world game with cargo delivery gameplay when all was said and done. Kojima did himself no favors when he aimed to suggest that Death Stranding would be the birth of a new genre.
 

Sorpano00

Banned
Oct 31, 2018
14
Aurc said:
The problem isn't that he highlighted differences in taste and culture, as culture informs taste, after all. There will always be differences between nations, that much is common sense. The problem is that he's sidestepping criticism in a very pathetic way. Americans are capable of appreciating art games and non-shooters, but perhaps not Death Stranding as much, because it was literally shrouded in secrecy and turned out to be just another open world game with cargo delivery gameplay when all was said and done. Kojima did himself no favors when he aimed to suggest that Death Stranding would be the birth of a new genre.
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Fair enough, but you'll admit there must be a reason when IGN Italy rates the game 98 and IGN US 68. Or when average ratings on EU and Japan sites are above the 90ies where the likes of Giant Bomb and Hardcore Gamer are bashing the game. And reducing Death Stranding to a "open world game with cargo delivery" seems to reinforce the concept.
 

Deleted member 8196

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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Ci saranno anche differenze culturali e tutto, ma non puoi negare che la popolazione italiana di videogiocatori non fa altro che giocare a sparatutto da decenni.
COD domina le classifiche ogni, in Italia, Francia e in tutta l'Europa da anni.

Cerca la TOP 10 dei giochi più venduti qui da noi negli ultimi anni e vedrai i soliti COD; Siege e BF e sarà davvero sorpreso se DS si classificherà nella TOP 10 di quest'anno in Italia
 
ScribeofGeadhain

ScribeofGeadhain

Member
Oct 30, 2017
636
Canada
Why the Hell are people bringing up the Joker? That was a great movie with very dark and uncomfortable themes that delivered exactly what you thought it would and was appreciated by a wide spectrum of moviegoers. DS is an obtuse, myopic take on Americanism. Or nannying and backpacking. Or something. Kojima needs better handlers and editors because if this game was from anyone else, with this amount of money thrown behind it, we would be calling it a flop.
 
gitrektali

gitrektali

Member
Feb 22, 2018
3,191
Sorpano00 said:
Fair enough, but you'll admit there must be a reason when IGN Italy rates the game 98 and IGN US 68. Or when average ratings on EU and Japan sites are above the 90ies where the likes of Giant Bomb and Hardcore Gamer are bashing the game. And reducing Death Stranding to a "open world game with cargo delivery" seems to reinforce the concept.
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I don't know how many times this has been brought up already, but the majority of US reviews were positive. Also, if you bother reading the IGN review, he explains fairly well, and in detail why he doesn't like aspects of the game.
 

Sorpano00

Banned
Oct 31, 2018
14
Stygr said:
Ci saranno anche differenze culturali e tutto, ma non puoi negare che la popolazione italiana di videogiocatori non fa altro che giocare a sparatutto da decenni.
COD domina le classifiche ogni, in Italia, Francia e in tutta l'Europa da anni.

Cerca la TOP 10 dei giochi più venduti qui da noi negli ultimi anni e vedrai i soliti COD; Siege e BF e sarà davvero sorpreso se DS si classificherà nella TOP 10 di quest'anno in Italia
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Certo (anche se credo che i top seller EU siano sempre i vari FIFA/PES), non è una novità che tutta la EU si sta americanizzando e che i Godard e Pasolini abbiano quasi del tutto lasciato il posto all'ennesima annuale fuffa Marvel. Ma la EU è sempre la EU. Una certa sensibilità "sociale" e "culturale" alle tematiche di Death Stranding in Europa fa guardare all'opera di Kojima con occhio diverso (non dico migliore, diverso). La spiegazione di tutto questo si scopre leggendo le recensioni stesse.
 
Son of Sparda

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,619
chromatic9 said:
An honorary European
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giphy.gif
 
RedGator

RedGator

Member
Nov 7, 2017
436
What a riot of a thread. A few things are for sure:

People from different places have different tastes, and pointing it out isn't an insult. It's okay to expect one region will be more accepting of something than another. If that's how Kojimas's perceived it, that's fine and he might be wrong.

Games seldom score a 40 from one reviewer and 100 from another. Objectively, Death Stranding probably isn't a 6/10 game. It seems to do everything it wants to do, well.

Kojima is pretentious and his output is/can be unconventional. Even if you hate it, it's a good thing. It would be great if there were more people at his level with the ambition to make weird things exploring new territory.

Everyone needs to calm down.

Daytak said:
How are posts like this actually still allowed
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But change IGN to Kojima and we're good? Cause there's half a thread of that here and I haven't seen you challenge it.
 

Deleted member 28386

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,304
Sorpano00 said:
Fair enough, but you'll admit there must be a reason when IGN Italy rates the game 98 and IGN US 68. Or when average ratings on EU and Japan sites are above the 90ies where the likes of Giant Bomb and Hardcore Gamer are bashing the game.
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Can't time stamp because I'm on mobile and leaving work but John covers the regional scores from Metacritic starting at 5:03 and as you can see, there's barely a discrepancy in average review scores across regions.

 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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I'll just be up here in Canada enjoying "dog sled simulator", "poutine eating contest 2019", and my favourite walking sim: "Sorry, bud"

You guys wouldn't get it (EU or US) - these types of games fly above games like shooters or Death Stranding.

I think Kojima is just butthurt that not everyone likes his seemingly crappy game, and had to take a jab at those who gave it a poor review because he can't accept that maybe his artsy game is just..not good
 
TheGhost

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Sorpano00 said:
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
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War games not as popular in the EU? Tell that to all the French and German players shooting my ass up in COD on Sundsy Mornings for the last decade.
 

LordOcidax

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,486
Is Kojima is salty about 4 or 5 bad reviews from 80+ review's and the game with a good 83 metacritic score... It's going to be a hell from him if they make a bad scored game... Is obvious that the guy can't handle bad criticism. He really thinks that he flies above all... Needs an Egocheck asap.
 
Servbot24

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,147
XandBosch said:
I think Kojima is just butthurt that not everyone likes his seemingly crappy game, and had to take a jab at those who gave it a poor review because he can't accept that maybe his artsy game is just..not good
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The game was well reviewed by journalists and even more well received by fans. It's a pretty good game, regardless of how desperate you are to spin narratives. Which is very strange behavior I might add.
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
Servbot24 said:
The game was well reviewed by journalists and even more well received by fans. It's a pretty good game, regardless of how desperate you are to spin narratives. Which is very strange behavior I might add.
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Was it though?

I'm not desperate to spin anything lol - I just find it funny, and I find Kojima's statement kind of bullshit.

M30EF6Oh.jpg
 
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