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RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,902
JP
Fair enough, but you'll admit there must be a reason when IGN Italy rates the game 98 and IGN US 68.
Indeed, because they were rated by different people. The game would get different rating from different American IGN staff members, too! :P

That, or, this game flies higher than shooters which are the only kind of game Americans rate highly, according to Kojima (hint: not this).
 

TheWickedSoul

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,156
It really not for a guy who is used to scoring in the low to high 90s. Even MGSV that people say wasn't complete even from people who love the game scored a 95.
He got to make a huge AAA exclusive on one of best consoles of all time, got to hang with Hollywood actors and made a well received game. Why get upset about it.
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,704
Upstate NY
And this topic has gone about as well as I expected.

You can like Death Stranding. You can hate Death Stranding. You can even think Death Stranding is okay. All are viable, valid opinions, and none should be mocked.

This is just giving me flashbacks to 2004 and being a Nintendo fan in my 20s, which was something you just weren't open about back then.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Australians are just Americans but they sound kind of English. Therefore, it is still only America that doesn't get the Death Stranding.
 

TheBaldwin

Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,285
Forgetting that many games that have no action and are purely focused on story get high ratings and GOTY, and many shooters, especially FPS, of this gen are few and far between and actually either sell poorly or arnt greatly received

This just seems like a 'YOU JUST DONT GET IT'

DS is seemingly not a game for everyone, and criticising a game that seemingly has very valid negative points is fair game
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,331
Seattle
Hi guys, Italian here. I think you (American friends) shouldn't feel insulted or pissed off by Kojima words. There are cultural differences between US and EU, you cannot deny that. EU is mostly a weapon-free continent, US is not. War games are big hits in US, much less in EU. In US naked bodies are a no-no, EU is much more relaxed on that topic. Don't want to judge, at each one his own way to see the world, but we're different. And Kojima just pointed out that.
Why do you feel the need to speak for him, saying words he didn't say?

Claiming there are cultural differences is not insulting; claiming one culture lacks the ability to appreciate unique or complex art while another does.. is insulting.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
He did all that and more at his old job, specifically he got a blank check and his games were for the most part multi-platformed.
On the contrary the sheer technical accomplishments of his game, for all generations of his work, I think has been so strong, and this more than ever is a testament that as long as it's Kojima doing it, something highly polished and cutting edge comes out on the other end. As a director, artistically, I definitely think he's a guy who NEEDS AN EDITOR, but besides that, I think it's clear as day what kind of influence he has as a manager/leader for a studio. He's an egomaniac and yet somehow very respected including by his own fellow workers. I agree he's gotten over-indulgent around wanting to constantly tell us about movies he likes and hiring actors he loves so he can meet them, but it's still hard to deny DS has some of the best animated and presented photoreal characters I've seen. A lot of games would take Mads Mikkelsen and get his superficial likeness right but bungle up his face-capture animations. The subtle touches and attention to detail are all there, and the game is full of small touches that didn't need to be there.

I think Kojima is a genius. He's obviously not the guy who made the whole game, but he's certainly the kind of leader who tries to do everything, and whether that gets over-credited, maybe, but ultimately if you removed him KojiPro would probably make well produced games that lacked the same attention to detail or vision, that he can pull together.

So he's a good director.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
On the contrary the sheer technical accomplishments of his game, for all generations of his work, I think has been so strong, and this more than ever is a testament that as long as it's Kojima doing it, something highly polished and cutting edge comes out on the other end. As a director, artistically, I definitely think he's a guy who NEEDS AN EDITOR, but besides that, I think it's clear as day what kind of influence he has as a manager/leader for a studio. He's an egomaniac and yet somehow very respected including by his own fellow workers. I agree he's gotten over-indulgent around wanting to constantly tell us about movies he likes and hiring actors he loves so he can meet them, but it's still hard to deny DS has some of the best animated and presented photoreal characters I've seen. A lot of games would take Mads Mikkelsen and get his superficial likeness right but bungle up his face-capture animations. The subtle touches and attention to detail are all there, and the game is full of small touches that didn't need to be there.

I think Kojima is a genius. He's obviously not the guy who made the whole game, but he's certainly the kind of leader who tries to do everything, and whether that gets over-credited, maybe, but ultimately if you removed him KojiPro would probably make well produced games that lacked the same attention to detail or vision, that he can pull together.

So he's a good director.

I don't see how this post is contrary to what I said, unless I'm reading this wrong.

My point was that Kojima for most of his career got his way and was praised for it by the media and his peers. Konami more or less let him have his way and even let him build that Fox Engine. Then Konami tossed him on his ear in a very public and embarrassing manner going as far as to ripped his name off his own game that he babied for years, lost access to his own engine, and now he has to pretty much start from the bottom. While Sony also gave him a blank check and free access to his imagination, he can't build his own engine like before and his tied to one console and the PC. Then his game didn't get the reviews that he's used to.

So yeah, Kojima is talking from a place from a bruised ego from what I've seen and probably feels that he needs to prove that he can that 90% on MetaCritic without Konami and Metal Gear, especially with a game that he seems so personal about to a grand extent.

I have no comment on his genius since I honestly never played a game from the guy. The only thing I can say from the Youtube videos I have seen of his work is that he isn't a very good storyteller and despite his years of writing he still hasn't learned 'show, don't tell' and give your audience the benefit of figuring things out themselves instead of assuming they're morons.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
He got to make a huge AAA exclusive on one of best consoles of all time, got to hang with Hollywood actors and made a well received game. Why get upset about it.
Because the idea that DS isn't as well-received as his Konami-era games probably bruised his ego, even though the scoring average is still overall positive.
 

erikNORML

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,709
Love how weird, confusing, and pretentious became "cerebral"

Weird to be complaining about reviews, which from my vantage point seemed generally favorable to the game.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Because the idea that DS isn't as well-received as his Konami-era games probably bruised his ego, even though the scoring average is still overall positive.

That and I can't imagine him taking well that his thought provoking new genre busting game got beating in MetaCritic by game about a plumber sucking up ghosts with a glorified vacuum cleaner.

If you can't tell, I'm not being completely serious.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
you're all just aussies who haven't been convicted yet
yet
giphy.gif
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
888.jpg


I haven't played the game yet and I actually think it sounds really interesting but this kind of deflection of criticism reeks of ego.

That and I can't imagine him taking well that his thought provoking new genre busting game got beating in MetaCritic by game about a plumber sucking up ghosts with a glorified vacuum cleaner.

If you can't tell, I'm not being completely serious.
Fearful Plumber Sucker
 

GymWolf86

Banned
Nov 10, 2018
4,663
italians really like to watch barbara d'urso or maria de filippi uber-trash television programs, we are not really better than americans lol.

(i'm italian)
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
My point was that Kojima for most of his career got his way and was praised for it by the media and his peers. Konami more or less let him have his way and even let him build that Fox Engine. Then Konami tossed him on his ear in a very public and embarrassing manner going as far as to ripped his name off his own game that he babied for years, lost access to his own engine, and now he has to pretty much start from the bottom. While Sony also gave him a blank check and free access to his imagination, he can't build his own engine like before and his tied to one console and the PC. Then his game didn't get the reviews that he's used to.
You're talking about someone who, as you say, lost pretty much everything he was corporately entitled to, flew across the globe, created a AAA-budgeted game in 3 years with a newly made studio and brought over old and new contacts, and it's slightly below the norm for his other titles in terms of reviews. Most big name developers that break off form indie studios and create something that's a only a fraction of the quality of the best work they were involved in.

Death Stranding is maybe the weakest game Kojima has made next to his MGS titles (although so far I rank it above 4 and 5 personally) and yet it's still pretty good, and extremely well put together as a game (visuals, technicality, gameplay) and somehow he did that even though he should've broken off into an indie project or done a "failed Amy Hennig Star Wars" type of botch. Some of you guys just want to pick the flaws apart so you can say "Hah, Kojima not as good as everyone thought!"

If you saw Ken Levine abandoning Irrational Games to come back with "BioSchlock Productions", the makers of unnamed AAA BioShock successors, I would perhaps entertain the notion that Kojima isn't uniquely talented.
 

squilliedee

Member
Jan 4, 2019
104
I am a US citizen, I just returned from a vacation in Italy and had the time of my life!! This sounds similar to what I heard over and over again in Europe, "American's (fill in the blank)", whenever someone spoke about America, it was a broad statement. What I think some people fail to realize is, America is a GIGANTIC country, with many different types of people, that have many different opinions and interest. To generalize anything about us as a whole is irresponsible. There is no correct way to talk about us as a whole, but maybe keep in mind that we are a vast diverse country with many different beliefs, interest and opinions.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,116
Being upset at an 83 is strange stuff.
I think he's upset about IGN's review (6,8). Also Giant Bomb's 4/10. Both American and both way below the average (also ironically both rated CoD higher). They're big name sites, so they're hard to ignore. DS's lowest score comes from Stevivor though (Australian), the infamous 3,5/10.

I'm enjoying the game so far, moreso than I ever did MGSV - But he shouldn't be generalizing like this. He's obviously upset about the discrepancy between the average score and the lower ones. But fuck it - The majority think the game is great!

I'm more upset MGSV has a 93 meta... Hated it.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,319
I am a US citizen, I just returned from a vacation in Italy and had the time of my life!! This sounds similar to what I heard over and over again in Europe, "American's (fill in the blank)", whenever someone spoke about America, it was a broad statement. What I think some people fail to realize is, America is a GIGANTIC country, with many different types of people, that have many different opinions and interest. To generalize anything about us as a whole is irresponsible. There is no correct way to talk about us as a whole, but maybe keep in mind that we are a vast diverse country with many different beliefs, interest and opinions.

I think this is why blanket-statements and generalization do a disservice to any group you're talking about.

I mean I'm sure America looks like idiots on the global stage due to Trump & guns, but that's only half the story. Half the country is 1000% against those things. Yet the country gets mocked because of its lowest common denominator.

I don't think England are idiots because of Brexit. I simply know that just like the Trump-lovers, there's idiots in England who voted for Brexit.

You can point to any nation and pick it apart based on their lowest moments. But that completely fails to address that there's good people doing good things in all these places as well.

I think that's where Kojima dropped the ball in suggesting that Americans are too obsessed with shoot-shoot bang-bang to get his artistic vision.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
You're talking about someone who, as you say, lost pretty much everything he was corporately entitled to, flew across the globe, created a AAA-budgeted game in 3 years with a newly made studio and brought over old and new contacts, and it's slightly below the norm for his other titles in terms of reviews. Most big name developers that break off form indie studios and create something that's a only a fraction of the quality of the best work they were involved in.

Death Stranding is maybe the weakest game Kojima has made next to his MGS titles (although so far I rank it above 4 and 5 personally) and yet it's still pretty good, and extremely well put together as a game (visuals, technicality, gameplay) and somehow he did that even though he should've broken off into an indie project or done a "failed Amy Hennig Star Wars" type of botch. Some of you guys just want to pick the flaws apart so you can say "Hah, Kojima not as good as everyone thought!"

If you saw Ken Levine abandoning Irrational Games to come back with "BioSchlock Productions", the makers of unnamed AAA BioShock successors, I would perhaps entertain the notion that Kojima isn't uniquely talented.

I think the major problem here is that Kojima tried to hit the ground running and thought he could immediately go back to where he left off. While Death Stranding is indeed a wonder of visual and technology that put together in three years (which is impressive), I'm not sure I would call put together well in gameplay from what I've seen, but this is only my outside observation so you maybe right on that point. However, it didn't get the rave reviews he wanted and now he's, for the lack of better words, butthurt. Especially since Death Stranding is a new IP so it can't hide its flaws the same way Metal Gear Solid could. Like I have seen more than a few people say that Kojima's storytelling and need to make his games like movies were annoying, but tolerable since Metal Gear had great gameplay and a story that didn't take itself too seriously, so you could forgive the utterly wacky moments. In comparison, Death Stranding's gameplay is more of an acquire taste and the story for the most part does try to take itself seriously, making the flaws in Kojima's writing more obvious.

Maybe he should have started small and build himself up. Like make his weird, genre busting storytelling games on a more restrictive budget until he found his feet and new voice before making this giant blockbuster with high expectations that was going to be judged to his previous high standards. Or, eat some humble pie and accept the possibility that maybe he will never reached the same heights he had with Konami instead of blaming a region for 'not getting it'.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
I have no comment on his genius since I honestly never played a game from the guy. The only thing I can say from the Youtube videos I have seen of his work is that he isn't a very good storyteller and despite his years of writing he still hasn't learned 'show, don't tell' and give your audience the benefit of figuring things out themselves instead of assuming they're morons.

fyi, none of the above is true. I don't think it's the worst thing to form an opinion on him/his games via outside sources and testimonials, but I wouldn't go to youtube for them
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I think that's where Kojima dropped the ball in suggesting that Americans are too obsessed with shoot-shoot bang-bang to get his artistic vision.
Maybe his art is just not interesting? I don't get why he can't just accept that possibility. Or that his gameplay and sneaker degredgation is just too weird?

Yeah there is no guns, it's not MGS
But you're asking people to enjoy a walking game . He needs to come back down to earth.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,608
Kojima is right on this one, that's why everyone in 'Merica hates games like Ico, Brothers, Tetris, Luigis Mansion, Undertale, Journey, Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing etc etc.. all games without guns, obviously they can't wrap their heads around. You take out the shooty and they just start banging their heads with their controllers.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
fyi, none of the above is true. I don't think it's the worst thing to form an opinion on him/his games via outside sources and testimonials, but I wouldn't go to youtube for them

I mean looking at videos of his story. You can watched all of Metal Gear story just by looking at it on Youtube.
 

darfox8

Member
Nov 5, 2017
984
USA
After playing the game for like 10ish hours I kinda get why he might have a chip on his shoulder. The gaming press is so quick to dump praise on "artsy" shooters.Games like Bioshock and Spec Ops The Line. Where the mechanics and the presentation are shooty stuff this or that. The press eats up the vague philosophical musings even though they are shooting people in the face for 12ish hours.

DS is legit. The gameplay is unique with a lot of room for exploration. Exploration not just in the environment but how you are dealing with the risks and stuff. I find myself having the abandon preconceived notions of how to play this game and just embrace the systems. DS is the absolute best case scenario for a Kojima game post Metal Gear. MGS has long offered you the options of non-lethal playthroughs, but DS leans fully into this gameplay loop where violence is rarely even an option.
 

takoyaki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
The controversial quote was just a wrong translation by that Italian site after all:


In an interview between Hideo Kojima and Italian game website TGCom24, Kojima says that the American preference for first-person shooters may have affected players' response to Death Stranding. An original translation of Kojima's response also suggested that Death Stranding was better than a shooter. However, IGN's version of the quote finds that part to be inaccurate. Here is our independent translation of Kojima's answer.

"I must say that the game has received some enthusiastic reviews, above all in Europe and Japan. Here in the US, instead, we've had stronger criticisms. Perhaps it's a game that's difficult to understand for a certain type of critic and some of the public. Americans are some of the biggest first-person shooter fans and Death Stranding isn't that."In a follow-up, a representative from Sony also provided a translation of Kojima's final line in the quote. According to them, Kojima said, "In America, there are a lot of FPS fans, maybe those fans are saying this is like a different game and are not rating it very high."

In either case, Kojima does seem to be saying that a cultural preference for shooters in the US may be skewing the reviews for Death Stranding. But it doesn't appear as though he is claiming that Death Stranding is better than the FPS genre.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,319
Maybe his art is just not interesting? I don't get why he can't just accept that possibility. Or that his gameplay and sneaker degredgation is just too weird?

Yeah there is no guns, it's not MGS
But you're asking people to enjoy a walking game . He needs to come back down to earth.

I've considered this as well, but from a different angle that isn't so charged.

The reality is that Kojima released an indie-style game to a AAA market.

Now if you look at annual Top 10 sales stats across Western countries, you'd be surprised how similar they actually are. Oftentimes sharing the same grouping of games, be it GTA, CoD, MK, Mario or whatever. The only clause would be that Europeans go for soccer more while US markets dig NFL & NBA titles more.

My point is that Kojima is suggesting that US gamers are obsessed with shooters when in reality ALL Western territories are just as signed up for those same types of games.

So when he hoists an indie game in disguise into a AAA market and wonders why there's pushback, it appears really obvious to everyone but him. Strip away the production values and Stranding is an indie game. Indie games are niche by nature and cater to smaller audiences. Thus that AAA pool he's expecting to capture are gonna be more apprehensive of his latest release.

His name on the box is only gonna carry it so far when AAA audiences have built-in expectation for their primary diet in games. Expectations that he actively subverts in Stranding. I think this is a great thing, but it's not lost on me that you're gonna alienate some of your audience in the process, be that the buying public or the press review community.

Just feels like Kojima is expecting widespread AAA accolades when in reality he shipped a more niche product. I don't understand how he doesn't recognize this simple context.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
I mean looking at videos of his story. You can watched all of Metal Gear story just by looking at it on Youtube.

yes, it is like watching the story of any game on youtube, they lack a bulk of the necessary context. I'm not saying they aren't useful, just like importantly incomplete.

check this essay out, it breaks down a bit of kojima's style and illustrates how he is more of a shower than a teller: http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/DOTM1.htm.

a lot of the "telling" (it's in all his games) where a character breaks everything down deus ex machina style is employed as a narrative trope, and is meant less to explain something that he feels went over the player's head and more to help rearrange the player's brain and their relationship w/ the game

an excerpt from the essay:
Players still complain about Raiden, and they still complain about the quality of MGS2's script. The persistence of these gripes suggests that we lack the ability to regard games as formal rather than narrative experiences. The gripe that MGS2 is more movie than game falls through because a close look at MGS2 reveals its form as a videogame that deliberately frustrated the player through the medium's interactivity.

MGS2's form paralleled its content. It is an excellent example of an object that rises above the novelty of its medium.

Poetry uses linguistic structure to create forms that abstractly embody, support, and express semantic content. In this way, it changes the rhythms and sounds of human speech from mere jingling into something divine.

MGS2 is one of the few videogames that elevates the medium above the mere jingling of entertainment.

MGS2's defenders have attacked the game's critics by claiming that they "just don't understand the plot." Those critics then respond that MGS2's script isn't very good.

No, its script isn't as good as MGS1's. It's not supposed to be.

The key to MGS2 isn't its script or its narrative, but the form that both ultimately serve.

his use of plot isn't really in the service of storytelling the same way, say, the Last of Us is
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
yes, it is like watching the story of any game on youtube, they lack a bulk of the necessary context. I'm not saying they aren't useful, just like importantly incomplete.

check this essay out, it breaks down a bit of kojima's style and illustrates how he is more of a shower than a teller: http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/DOTM1.htm.

a lot of the "telling" (it's in all his games) where a character breaks everything down deus ex machina style is employed as a narrative trope, and is meant less to explain something that he feels went over the player's head and more to help rearrange the player's brain and their relationship w/ the game

an excerpt from the essay:


his use of plot isn't really in the service of storytelling the same way, say, the Last of Us is

Not sure how not playing a game means I lack context for the story unless the gameplay is tied to the actual story, which it isn't from what I've seen. And a game is badly paced if you needs to stale the entire story to explain what is going on. Which is what I mean by 'show, don't tell'.
 

GusFacsimile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
128
I'm sure this is probably a mis-translation as 'flies higher' is not a usual phrase, I would probably think of he means 'aims higher', which in truth it does.
Look at the average triple A fps/tps nowadays, the writing is usually the last thing they focus on and the overall themes are often dissonant to the gameplay. No thought is given to how the gameplay can further the themes of the story, a good example of this is Watchdogs 2. Where you could happily 3D print weapons and go on a killing spree. Usually the writing takes a backseat, and story is usually just a simple plot tacked on to give a bit of context. Triple A Games that do try to aim higher are rare, the most obvious that springs to mind is Spec Ops, the Line.

Also it is common for people to be less willing to accept something new, as they generally want to feel the same way they usually do when playing their games, so they then reject anything different . So if a country that usually favours certain styles of games has something new appear in their favoured style, they're sort of conditioned to expect it to deliver a certain familar experience. When it doesn't deliver that you can theorise that's a possible reason for some people's reactions.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
im not saying that I know the true translation or anything, but even w/ the above translation I am fairly certain that kojima has prtty specific thoughts about guns and the west and that the setting of the game isn't coincidental?

Not sure how not playing a game means I lack context for the story unless the gameplay is tied to the actual story, which it isn't from what I've seen. And a game is badly paced if you needs to stale the entire story to explain what is going on. Which is what I mean by 'show, don't tell'.

yes it is tied to the actual story, and no the game is not badly paced unless you count a dumb swimming section
if you're talking about death stranding (im talking about mgs2 in the above), i dunno I havent finished it, but I'm up to chapter 3 and the game is paced fine.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I think the major problem here is that Kojima tried to hit the ground running and thought he could immediately go back to where he left off. While Death Stranding is indeed a wonder of visual and technology that put together in three years (which is impressive), I'm not sure I would call put together well in gameplay from what I've seen
So you're not playing it.

It's not MGSV but it's definitely on par with anything before that. MGSV was a particularly special game in that it had its own proprietary engine made with its mechanics of need in focus, and it also perfected the game-ideas as established by all previous games in the series. Death Stranding is a new concept and a new pitch and despite using Horizon Zero Dawn's engine most of the things you do is uniquely implemented and they managed to create numerous types of mechanics, even one-off segments in the game that feel different from anything else you see in the majority of the game, right down to unique assets and enemy types being used. You could call them set-pieces too.

Really, I see no slowing down of Kojima but yeah, obviously this was a setback. I just see that in spite of that it's almost unbelievable how far ahead he already is again, doing unprecedented things and iterating on technology his team didn't make, in ways even Guerilla Games didn't expect.
 

Titanpaul

Member
Jan 2, 2019
5,008
After playing the game for like 10ish hours I kinda get why he might have a chip on his shoulder. The gaming press is so quick to dump praise on "artsy" shooters.Games like Bioshock and Spec Ops The Line. Where the mechanics and the presentation are shooty stuff this or that. The press eats up the vague philosophical musings even though they are shooting people in the face for 12ish hours.

Not sure if you're comparing those games with Death Stranding but they certainly present their themes in tighter, more meaningful ways according to Giant Bomb's review.
 

Renfran

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 28, 2018
3,325
I don't really pay attention to any of this. Honestly, I've been really enjoying my time with Death Stranding, I picked up Luigi's Mansion same time and apart from the charm and puzzles, I think that game is rather mediocre, especially the controls and camera which are absolutely atrocious.

So different things for different people. Critics are just opinions, just like you. No one is more valid or better than the next. Neither is IGN. Neither is Giantbomb. Neither is Famitsu. Like or dislike it, but there's no reason for this constant fighting. Anyway, this sounds like a mistranslation.


That's what I figured.