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Kojima: Gaming will move on to streaming

Booya_base

Member
Oct 31, 2017
192
Jersey
I think I know what this idea is. Remember Kojima said he wanted to make a game where the disc exploded if you die. Well this will probably be your account is locked out if you die (the game would likely have to be free).
 

parski

Member
Nov 13, 2017
55
We migrated to sample-and-hold to get that sweet 720p despite the issues so I'm sure we'll be fine with those that come with streaming. You can fight it but you'll be a dinosaur in time.

Sheds CRTears
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,904
I'm sure it will, but I can't see how latency would be solved. Even though bandwidths tend to get larger and larger, and we assume that the standard becomes glass optic fiber, we still cap at around 200,000 km per hour, that's where the latency issues come from, doesn't really matter if you have a 1gb connection if you're still bound to that speed.
When you say "solved", can you say exactly what are you referring to?
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
I'm not dismissing anyone here. I'm defining people that prefer the distribution method before the game as not real gamers, but you can define it however you like and I will know what you mean every time you use it, get out of your head and pay attention to what I'm saying instead of whatever definition you have in your head. You are focusing too much on "Not a real gamer", instead of the meaning I'm assigning to it, "people that prefer the distribution method before the game." We could just jump to the part where you say that "Yes, the distribution method is more important than the game" and share your argument of why is that.
I can make the same argument that people who are ok to use a service that compromises the game playing experience (streaming) over the best experience (local rendering) are not real gamers. Instead, how about sticking to your OP?

Kojima believes that the future of games is streaming. There are many reasons that this is more difficult and further out than people think but, yes, streaming will have some place in the future of video game distribution. Will it auto magically expand the number of people playing his games because now you will have access through a phone? Most likely, no. Will it allow games to reach a more casually observant audience? Maybe. Will it allow for the most die-hard gamers to access a library from multiple devices? Most likely.

When you say "solved", can you say exactly what are you referring to?
They are referring to the issue of press/result. There is ALWAYS going to be some latency. Period. From action to reaction. Doing this across the raw web where you can not control every step along the pipe? More difficult. Google's "negative latency" is just awkward phrasing at best. Rendering multiple possibilities to be ready to serve, on a frame by frame basis, to MILLIONS of players simultaneously? Even if you could, the compute and resource curve required to do this would be horrifically expensive en masse.

Claiming that Stadia latency could be better than what you experience on a local machine rendering in real time is highly dubious.
 
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HairyFist87

Member
Jun 17, 2018
813
It will certainly be an option but local copies of media will not disappear until the technology is almost perfect
 

Nokagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,907
I'm not dismissing anyone here. I'm defining people that prefer the distribution method before the game as not real gamers, but you can define it however you like and I will know what you mean every time you use it, get out of your head and pay attention to what I'm saying instead of whatever definition you have in your head. You are focusing too much on "Not a real gamer", instead of the meaning I'm assigning to it, "people that prefer the distribution method before the game." We could just jump to the part where you say that "Yes, the distribution method is more important than the game" and share your argument of why is that.
Preferring a certain distribution method doesn't mean you care about the games any less. It simply means that you think it is the best way for you to receive those games. The fact that you thought this sounded better is hilarious to me.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,904
I can make the same argument that people who are ok to use a service that compromises the game playing experience (streaming) over the best experience (local rendering) are not real gamers. Instead, how about sticking to your OP?

Kojima believes that the future of games is streaming. There are many reasons that this is more difficult and further out than people think but, yes, streaming will have some place in the future of video game distribution. Will it auto magically expand the number of people playing his games because now you will have access through a phone? Most likely, no. Will it allow games to reach a more casually observant audience? Maybe. Will it allow for the most die-hard gamers to access a library from multiple devices? Most likely.
Sure you can. I cannot control how you define things. What I can do is challenge your argument once you have made clear what you're talking about. You are saying "compromise the game playing experience", say exactly what you mean by that and we can discuss it. You say that streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers, why is that? To use a random number, if you are releasing an app that allows you to play console games and the market is around 2 billion people, how is that it is likely that it won't expand the market? Unless you are prepared to say that no one will play consoles games on an app like that, you must adjust what you say to "a small number of people will play games there", not that it is likely that it won't expand the number of gamers that buy console games.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,904
Preferring a certain distribution method doesn't mean you care about the games any less. It simply means that you think it is the best way for you to receive those games. The fact that you thought this sounded better is hilarious to me.
If you say I won't play any games that I might like, it might even be my favorite game ever, but I won't touch it if it is on a cloud gaming service, you are saying that the first and most important thing is the distribution method and then the game. I just care about if the game is good or not. Might be digital, physical only, cloud only and if it has my attention, good scores, critical acclaim, etc. I will play it.
 

Caspah

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,315
Graveyard in Boston
Death Stranding for Stadia!

I still won't play it as the walking simulator doesn't sound interesting to me, but I want as many big AAA games on Stadia as possible
 

Nokagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,907
If you say I won't play any games that I might like, it might even be my favorite game ever, but I won't touch it if it is on a cloud gaming service, you are saying that the first and most important thing is the distribution method and then the game. I just care about if the game is good or not. Might be digital, physical only, cloud only and if it has my attention, good scores, critical acclaim, etc. I will play it.
Because a cloud gaming service isn't what is best for me. Not everyone has the luxury to say if it gets good scores I'll play it no matter what. Things a bit more complicated than that for a lot of people.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
When you say "solved", can you say exactly what are you referring to?
Sure you can. I cannot control how you define things.
No, but common understanding of words and meaning define them. I don't redefine words to fit a narrative.

What I can do is challenge your argument once you have made clear what you're talking about. You are saying "compromise the game playing experience", say exactly what you mean by that and we can discuss it.
- Inconsistent access to high performance networks across the country means I can't be assured that I will have access to my games, or play them as well as I could on a dedicated device.

- Exotic platforms means that I can't avail myself of extra compute resources in a data center if servers are running at capacity. Basically, if too many people are playing on nodes in a particular geo that I need to access then I can't play.

- Can't play them on a train, public wifi, on a plane, etc.

- Uncontrolled picture quality fluctuation.

- Uncontrolled or unexpected input latency.

You say that streaming will likely not expand the number of gamers, why is that? To use a random number, if you are releasing an app that allows you to play console games and the market is around 2 billion people, how is that it is likely that it won't expand the market? Unless you are prepared to say that no one will play consoles games on an app like that, you must adjust what you say to "a small number of people will play games there", not that it is likely that it won't expand the number of gamers that buy console games.
The issue with more people NOT playing RDR2 is not one of access. There is a certain portion of the population that won't play a 120 hour western that requires a 32 button controller. The argument that people won't have to buy a console as a barrier to entry is false. I live in a country (USA) where people are buying $700-1000 cell phones and $250 4K TVs. The cost of the console is not the barrier. The game type is. But, hey, don't take my word for it.

"There may be some disappointment that the market increase won't be as large as some people think," Take-Two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick told me in an interview earlier this month.

"I don't think it's as simple as there are a couple billion phones out there, and only a couple hundred million consoles out there, so the market will grow by 10 or 20x. I think that's facile," he said.


https://www.businessinsider.com/video-game-streaming-service-challenges-strauss-zelnick-2019-6
 

StraySheep

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
Of course it will - who doesnt believe that now?

... you people who still buy physical discs? That will disappear, replaced by digital, replaced by streaming

This transition will take YEARS - but it will happen. Just like other media like music and movies
That's the kind of talking that us physical gamers love!
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,211
Fantastic lag-free tech.



Also US =/= The world.
I don’t know what a gif of a live demonstration of a service that was still in development has anything to do with the tech already being here

there’s people in here that play GeForce now and played project stream last year with no issue, I’ve used GeForce now multiple times myself
 

yyr

Member
Nov 14, 2017
684
White Plains, NY
Yay, input lag and visual artifacts due to compression.

The moment this becomes the new standard and the only way to play games is the moment I move on.
This.

Gaming is not music/movies.

The enjoyment of gaming should not be limited to just those people with speedy Internet connections, or those who are always online.

The insane hardware and responsiveness requirements of VR (which some other folks claim is also the future of gaming) are not compatible with streaming at all.

No, streaming is not the exclusive future of gaming. There will always be a niche for it, just like VR, but I'd put money down that we'll be playing games on our consoles and PCs for many years to come.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
I don’t know what a gif of a live demonstration of a service that was still in development has anything to do with the tech already being here

there’s people in here that play GeForce now and played project stream last year with no issue
That's wasn't just a live demonstration of a service still in development. That was a live demo of a service not working in the most optimal and completely controlled environment just 6 months ago after being in development, reportedly, for years.
 

Calverz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,975
He pretty much predicted social media in metal gear solid 2. So this is a lock as far as im concerned. May as well sell my consoles now for google stadia. Bye bye physical collections.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,152
Once again everyone forgets about developing countries and third world countries.
It's not only developing countries and third world countries. I live in Germany and the Internet situation in some parts of the country is dire. We will eventually get there in the future, but it will take time to connect everybody to fast internet access. It's not an easy task, especially not in overly bureaucratic countries.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
I'm curious about all of the statements like, "If gaming goes full streaming then I'll give up gaming." Just seems so bizarre to me, like, akin to someone saying "If gaming goes from cartridges to discs, I'll give up gaming." If the medium goes in that direction, goes that way enough that it seems to be obviously a very popular format enough for all major players in the industry to shift there, then... why does it matter? Of course there will be compromises as the medium shifts to a different format, and as technology advances some get ironed out, some persist, etc.

I just don't get the people who are, like, tribalistic about the format that data gets to their gaming device. It's just a method of transferring data. I understand why someone might prefer one method to another, especially as the technology is developing and the infrastructure around it develops, but I don't get the tribalistic ride-or-die perspective.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,663
I don't see you as a real gamer then. For me it all starts and ends with the games. I'm very exited with the type of games developers will be able to make with the power of the cloud and Kojima seems to be too.
I love movies but if they stopped showing them in theaters and started making me go see them in some markedly inferior form, I would probably stop going to those, too. Streaming is a garbage tech that exists purely to move more control into the hands of the publishers and take it away from consumers. If there's no local install, I'm not getting involved.

I'm curious about all of the statements like, "If gaming goes full streaming then I'll give up gaming." Just seems so bizarre to me, like, akin to someone saying "If gaming goes from cartridges to discs, I'll give up gaming." If the medium goes in that direction, goes that way enough that it seems to be obviously a very popular format, then... why does it matter? Of course there will be compromises as the medium shifts to a different format, and as technology advances.

I just don't get the people who are, like, tribalistic about the format that data gets to their gaming device. It's just a method of transferring data.
The speed of light isn't going to change, the PR bullshit about latency solutions is just that - bullshit, and not owning the software in any way is a negative for the consumer. Streaming is not a useful consumer solution for interactive content, and never will be. It's purely a move to consolidate more control in the hands of the publishers at the expense of the consumer. At the very least, Stadia's model of charging retail price for a game that vanishes when the service ends is a dead end.
 

sleepr

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,483
It shows Phil pressing the jump button 3 times during the on stage demo at GDC launch and not jumping until the 3rd press. Latency.
That gif is not the actual experience though. Unless you have a shitty internet connection.

As I type this message I'm playing Diablo 3 and it feels no different than playing in local hardware.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,153
This.

Gaming is not music/movies.

The enjoyment of gaming should not be limited to just those people with speedy Internet connections, or those who are always online.

The insane hardware and responsiveness requirements of VR (which some other folks claim is also the future of gaming) are not compatible with streaming at all.

No, streaming is not the exclusive future of gaming. There will always be a niche for it, just like VR, but I'd put money down that we'll be playing games on our consoles and PCs for many years to come.
Forgot about VR.

Yeah, just for that alone streaming can't be the near future of gaming.
 

SturokBGD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,715
Ontario
Streaming won’t change the types of games being made, just make them more accessible.
Traditionally these kinds of paradigm shifts have made huge differences in the types of games being made. Like the shift from coin-ops to home consoles, or 2D to 3D in the N64/PS1 era, or the introduction of Xbox Live. I bet today's GaaS would be unthinkable to most just 5-10 years ago. What remains to be seen here is what kind of difference.
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,211
That's wasn't just a live demonstration of a service still in development. That was a live demo of a service not working in the most optimal and completely controlled environment just 6 months ago after being in development, reportedly, for years.
I wouldn’t say being connected to a network where hundreds of other people are connected would be called optimal environment, people already played project stream with no issue and that was an even earlier build of stadia
 
Nov 30, 2017
1,563
User Warned: Objectifying women.
My god Jade Raymond is hot.

OT local will be available for a long time. I will absolutely use streaming and already do. I also use digital.

Im too much of a fan of physical hardware and games. I have every console ive ever loved to play from a working atari 2600 and Commodore 64, to the PS4.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,988
Chicago
Someday, maybe. It certainly won't be anytime soon.

I'm sure a few people here will read this as "Kojima endorses Google Stadia!" I know who those people are, already.

I don't see you as a real gamer then. For me it all starts and ends with the games. I'm very exited with the type of games developers will be able to make with the power of the cloud and Kojima seems to be too.
God damn, I can see this thread got off to a great start.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,988
Chicago
PS What?

Sorry, but I listen to a lot of Amerrican gaming podcasts like Axe of the Blood God with Kat Bailey and the Giant Bombcast with Jeff Gerstmann, and I'm pretty sure if Sony had a way for consumers to play games via streaming then media veterans like them would be aware of it.

As Kat and Jeff said, only once Google release Stadia and Microsoft releases xCloud, will Sony finally get around to looking at streaming. American comapnies are always first to jump on to new technologies like this.
I had to re-read this but you really had me going there.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,991
Seattle
Of course it will - who doesnt believe that now?

... you people who still buy physical discs? That will disappear, replaced by digital, replaced by streaming

This transition will take YEARS - but it will happen. Just like other media like music and movies
Yet physical movies and music continue to be supported, with no real sign that will stop.

But those are bad comparisons anyways; movies make most of their money in theaters and TV syndication.. musicians make their money touring and via merch, and they gave up on physical music sales being a prominent revenue source because piracy was too rampant. To some extent, same with the film industry.

Games for the most part make their money.. selling copies of games. Streaming of movies really replaced movie rental, as movie "Sales" were never that high to begin with outside of the brief window where DVD became super popular (and again, piracy started to erode that and studios gave up and "gave in" to streaming.)
 

llLeonhart

Member
Oct 21, 2019
51
When you say "solved", can you say exactly what are you referring to?
In simpler words, Input Lag. when you have a game running in a server, your command has to travel back at the server so it registers it. Some games would be absolutely fine, others, is a big no no. In order for a game to feel good, you want it to respond as fast as possible. Suppose you are playing Dark Souls, and you die because you pressed dodge and it took too long to respond. Fighting Games, Competitive games in general, Big problem in my book.

Now, I'm sure they can mitigate it, but never be the same as playing locally because, like another poster claimed above, they're still bound to the laws of physics.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
I wouldn’t say being connected to a network where hundreds of other people are connected would be called optimal environment, people already played project stream with no issue and that was an even earlier build of stadia
That was not a network being shared by hundreds of other people. That was an on stage, live demo, directly connected to their servers. They were not using the GDC public wifi for that.
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,211
That was not a network being shared by hundreds of other people. That was an on stage, live demo, directly connected to their servers. They were not using the GDC public wifi for that.
Idk what they were using I just know they were in a large building that had its own network, so I’m just guessing others were using it too

your just ignoring the project stream test though that I’ve already mentioned 3 times here and I’ve also used GeForce now multiple times with no issues
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
That gif is not the actual experience though. Unless you have a shitty internet connection.

As I type this message I'm playing Diablo 3 and it feels no different than playing in local hardware.
Fantastic! Sometimes, it works just fine. Now go play that game on public wifi, at a hotel, a school, etc. That gif WAS the actual experience, on stage, of the tech running. As I said, one of the biggest issues is that cloud streaming can not have predictably consistent performance at this time. And, not for years to come.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
467
I wish people wouldn't compare streaming of film, television and music to streaming of games. So many problems with non-interactive streaming can be accounted for just with buffering. Not to mention that live game streaming like Stadia will always consume significantly more bandwidth for the same quality level due to the lack of B-Frames.

I'm not saying streaming doesn't have a future, I'm just saying that it's probably not the only future.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
Idk what they were using I just know they were in a large building that had its own network, so I’m just guessing others were using it too
They were in a large building. And no way they were sharing that network connection with 25,000 attendees in a launch event.

your just ignoring the project stream test though that I’ve already mentioned 3 times here and I’ve also used GeForce now multiple times with no issues
Oh, I'm not at all. I was in the test as well. I have a subscription to GeForce Now too. I sit ~5 miles from the biggest datacenter on the east coast and run gigabit fiber to my desktop. Didn't stop their service from telling me that it was at capacity on a Wed afternoon. Nor did it stop intermittent input lag and macro blocking from appearing.

Even at it's best, it doesn't hold up as well as just running the game on my PC.
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,211
Oh, I'm not at all. I was in the test as well. I have a subscription to GeForce Now too. I sit ~5 miles from the biggest datacenter on the east coast and run gigabit fiber to my desktop. Didn't stop their service from telling me that it was at capacity on a Wed afternoon. Nor did it stop intermittent input lag and macro blocking from appearing.

Even at it's best, it doesn't hold up as well as just running the game on my PC.
Yea so you should know that gif doesn’t even come close to representing GeForce now or project stream

stadia shouldn’t have a capacity problem

If your experience is the same as that gif then my experience has been much better than yours
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
79
Yea so you should know that gif doesn’t even come close to representing GeForce now or project stream

stadia shouldn’t have a capacity problem
Never said it did. But I have experienced drops, crashes, and latency issues on every cloud service.

As for Stadia not having a capacity problem, how do you figure? Stadia are dedicated servers, not part of google's general compute pool. Hell, last year YouTube experienced a 45 min outage in the US during world cup because they couldn't keep up with capacity. On a linear stream.
 

Halfling

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,407
I'm not even going to pretend I can predict 15 years from now onwards but lol at this thread. Only real gamers believe in streaming, our Lord Kojima has spoken!
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,211
Never said it did. But I have experienced drops, crashes, and latency issues on every cloud service.

As for Stadia not having a capacity problem, how do you figure? Stadia are dedicated servers, not part of google's general compute pool. Hell, last year YouTube experienced a 45 min outage in the US during world cup because they couldn't keep up with capacity. On a linear stream.
Because stadia is much larger than GeForce now
 

IamFlying

Member
Apr 6, 2019
683
As he especially mentions Apple products even though iSomething have relatively small (and shrinking) market share he will probably release something for Apple?
 

IamFlying

Member
Apr 6, 2019
683
He's referring to the fact that you can for example access Netflix from basically any screen. Once Cloud gaming services become widespread, then you can either watch a Netflix show or continue playing Cyberpunk on your smartphone, while being a passenger in a car.
It will need much more than 5g to enjoy streaming games in a car.