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Oct 30, 2017
15,278
So there's different types of crunches now?
He looks tired in that photo .
Apparently crunch is rank-order now because Kojima's tweet offered no context so we shouldn't assume anything. But even if it's bad it's not that bad because it happens in every studio, his tweet is "vague," crunch could imply light crunch and not "crunch-crunch," and whatever other excuse I can pull out of my ass to spare Kojima from criticism.
 

Thatonedice1

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,112
Working on that also.
The idea that bringing a product to market requires crunch is lie born of shitty practices. There is no benefit of having crunch over a delayed released date.

If a products production is well planned, well explained, and worked on at a even paced then there won't be need for large amounts of crunch. But there are always some crunch cases out there. Sometimes something goes wrong right before launch and someone might need to work all night to fix it, sometimes someone forgot something. Sometimes a disgruntled might mess something up out of spite. Who knows, life is complicated and sometimes stuff just goes wrong. But to think that you can just delay something until it comes out perfect is ridiculous. If someone finds something wrong with a game that can be fix with like 5 people spending a couple extra hours a week before to fix vs delaying the game a week then I say let those 5 people work longer as long as they make overtime. But if people are constantly working overtime like a month or 2 before launch just to get a game out then that's bad and needs to be called out. Saying that all crunch is bad is ridiculous, releasing anything to the public is a stressful time. ALWAYS, probably mitigating that stress is good management though. But saying it shouldn't excite at all is impossible.
 

CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
Remember folks, sometimes Directors or devs want to work a bit more on their creation. While I agree it is bad to crunch for 9 months before launch, I can understand how some devs want to work extra hard near the end. Kojima is not going to relax and come into his office for 2 hours a day or just 2-3 times per week.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
The fact Kojima volunteered this info should tell you it's probably not as horrific as you all imagine it to be.

And the post about Insomniac games said it was *relatively crunch-free* not 'completely' so even they experienced it.

One thing I can say for certainty without knowing the precise nature of his teams crunch, the conditions and working environment can't be anywhere near as toxic as Konami's during MGSV.
No it shouldn't, it should be incredibly perplexing that Kojima would put that out in a tweet especially with the recent industry conversations. This crunch is also most likely avoidable which is the main issue, do you think Sony would say no to a delay?

Yeah and that's not exactly a good thing, name one indie or AA studio that could survive 6 years without a release
You realise that they work on other WB games right, like Arkham Knight.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Every single AAA game goes through crunch time before release. This is absolutely non-news thread.
No. It's always news. We should always be reminded of this practice because it's a human rights concern.

It's possible to be ethically done, but that won't happen without the appropriate levels of scrutiny, regulation and worker protections.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
It's almost sobering how indicative this thread is of crunch in itself.

Higher up, respected dev stays longer and crunches harder and so hes idolized.

Lower devs don't want to fall out of line and might even want to emulate the respected dev so they crunch as well.

All helps to grow the sentiment that "everybody crunches its normal" as seen in this thread lol.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
People in here freaking out didn't get the memo that Kojima single-handedly makes all of his games anyway, so what's the problem if he's the only one crunching?
 

Wolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,849
It's really weird how this community's position on crunch completely changes when it's not EA, Rockstar, or Activision.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,238
Question. Do Japanese workers go public as often as workers in the west when talking about crunch? We know it's terrible in Japan, with some offices in the past, where they'd sleep under their desk for a few hours, instead of going home.
Nowhere near as often and it's not a good thing, workaholism in Japan is incredibly common and very much encouraged and baked in. It's incredibly dangerous and people over there have been trying to get this to change without much luck: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39981997
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,599
Someone was crunching there too. All it would take is some last minute bug popped up as the game was releasing and you have 2-3 devs working overtime to get a patch out.

That's not the crunch that is bad and should be addressed. All professions have shit has hit the fan moments. It's when the crunch is 9 months long and 80 hours a week for 9 months that it is an issue.
 

Phantom_Snake

The Fallen
Jul 26, 2018
3,776
Montana
For all we know there is no crunch going on at all. He loves messing with people, this could all be something he thought would be funny to watch people lose their shit over. Is he really tired in that Twitter picture? Because I too can hold a Monster can, close my eyes and look "tired".
 

Kaah

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
1,823
Paris
It's really weird how this community's position on crunch completely changes when it's not EA, Rockstar, or Activision.
It doesn't ? we have a vague tweet from Kojima about "crunching" whatever that means for him, versus a bunch of article from Kotaku and others about the insane working conditions at EA, Rockstar etc...
If tomorrow Kotaku release a piece about dev working 100 hours per week at KP, reaction will be the same as for the other studios. Right now it's nothing.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,115
So there's different types of crunches now?
He looks tired in that photo .
Uh yeah? Obviously there are. I'm sure you've stayed late at work to finish something before, then there are devs who crunch 24/7 for several months in a row, and then there is everything in between.

Kojima "crunches" because he's a workaholic. He loves doing it. Nothing wrong with that, as long as employees aren't forced to do the same.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,849
Apparently crunch is rank-order now because Kojima's tweet offered no context so we shouldn't assume anything. But even if it's bad it's not that bad because it happens in every studio, his tweet is "vague," crunch could imply light crunch and not "crunch-crunch," and whatever other excuse I can pull out of my ass to spare Kojima from criticism.
Perhaps they are just doing lots of crunches as part of their routine?

I'll get my coat
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Look it's really simple, if you are against crunch then don't support the game and spread awareness that crunch is going on within Kojima Productions

A large portion of Era hates Kojima, every thread about him is a shitheap.

An even larger portion hate him AND his fans though, which is where the complaints in this thread are coming from.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,632
It doesn't ? we have a vague tweet from Kojima about "crunching" whatever that means for him, versus a bunch of article from Kotaku and others about the insane working conditions at EA, Rockstar etc...
If tomorrow Kotaku release a piece about dev working 100 hours per week at KP, reaction will be the same as for the other studios. Right now it's nothing.
Your statement would be true if the majority of reactions here were "hold up, we don't know how much time they're actually putting in". But lots of people are just saying "Every studio crunches, this is normal", which is absolutely not the same thing.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,009
It would be rather odd for a studio head to come out with something like this of their own accord. Perhaps it's more the figurative "crunch time", rather than literal crunch time.
 

definedMF

Member
Oct 25, 2017
528
Toronto Canada
How do you know it isn't extreme crunch?

crunch is crunch. I don't get why it's ok now.
How do you know it is extreme crunch. I don't understand the absurd outrage of what we DON'T know...

Crunch can start at any time, and crunch can be mitigated to certain areas of staff, certain hourly thresholds which wouldn't compare to 100 hour work weeks but instead maybe 50-60.

Tell me how we can react so quickly when we have 0 more information, this is a purely a speculative thread at this point.

NOTE: I am in no way in favor of crunch at the extreme levels, but this is an expected concept of programming and software design. You will hit a point in a project that requires your team to work longer and harder for a time period.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Still, I don't know what expect to this game. I'm not great fan of starring Hollywood actors face in a game (I prefer original characters) and I don't get it what the gameplay is about. But I hope it will be a good surprise.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,221
Nope, they are a support studio as well, they worked on the main game.

The point is they arent a good example of a studio that doesn't crunch that everyone can point at and say "everyone should do it this way"

Not every studio doesnt have to release their own games and gets to work on one of the most popular IPs in existence
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
Lol I think that "large portion" just likes to make fun of him cuz he's a weirdo and it's easy, which his stans then interpret as "hate" because it makes them upset to see their idol mocked

Ding ding ding.

Anytime someone jumps to the conclusion that you HATE someone or something simply because you criticize it, that person is probably a little too attached lol.
 

definedMF

Member
Oct 25, 2017
528
Toronto Canada
How do you know it isn't extreme crunch?

crunch is crunch. I don't get why it's ok now.
How do you know it is extreme crunch. I don't understand the absurd outrage of what we DON'T know...

Crunch can start at any time, and crunch can be mitigated to certain areas of staff, certain hourly thresholds which wouldn't compare to 100 hour work weeks but instead maybe 50-60.

Tell me how we can react so quickly when we have 0 more information, this is a purely a speculative thread at this point.

NOTE: I am in no way in favor of crunch at the extreme levels, but this is an expected concept of programming and software design. You will hit a point in a project that requires your team to work longer and harder for a time period.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,115
Lol I think that "large portion" just likes to make fun of him cuz he's a weirdo and it's easy, which his stans then interpret as "hate" because it makes them upset to see their idol mocked
Hate is probably shortcut language, but it's still pretty irritating having every thread filled with 75% spam posts consisting of the usual regurgitated "not so revolutionary after all! wake up sheeple!!", "this movie is gonna suck LOL got im", "he wants this to be good? how pretentious" etc
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Hopefully this means he's open to talking to games media about the circumstances of that crunch and how he's ensuring his employees' rights.
 

Tryxx

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
307
This "crunch" stuff has gotten a bit ridiculous imo. Every single job in the world there's going to be times when tasks need to be done and that's it. That's why we get paid that's why their is overtime, etc.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Ding ding ding.

Anytime someone jumps to the conclusion that you HATE someone or something simply because you criticize it, that person is probably a little too attached lol.
I'll make some post making fun of him for Quiet, someone jumps in and gets riled up about it, the reality is I'll play the game if impressions are good, really don't give two shits about Kojima, just think it's funny to make fun of him because he's turning himself into a joke as it is and all his fans get enraged when he is questioned lol
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
I don't lol, you just put in a few words and concise sentence something I had been trying to define for months now.

Yeah, I believe there's a difference to be made and some people going "Hey! Guess we're all pro crunch now since Kojima does it!" are missing the point or lack any understanding of how project management works. We don't know the extent of crunch at KojiPro (though I'm guessing it's somewhat harsher than it should be and I wish we had more info like in previous cases, for proper discussion), but I do hope that no one in their right mind would defend the second type of crunch you describe here, because that's the one we've all been calling out in this forum.
funny cause that was literally a definition of hivemind just reworded lol
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
The point is they arent a good example of a studio that doesn't crunch that everyone can point at and say "everyone should do it this way"

Not every studio doesnt have to release their own games and gets to work on one of the most popular IPs in existence
No one said they were, they were amongst a number of studios that Stygr posted. One you chose to single out for obvious reasons. So take PG as one example, puts out best in class games every two years (actually a year and 8 months of dev time.) There is one great example, how about Media Molecule? etc
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,191
Argentina
Deeply dissapointed by a lot of people in here, downplaying workers right because of fucking personality cult

Pretty disgusting all around.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
I'll make some post making fun of him for Quiet, someone jumps in and gets riled up about it, the reality is I'll play the game if impressions are good, really don't give two shits about Kojima, just think it's funny to make fun of him because he's turning himself into a joke as it is and all his fans get enraged when he is questioned lol
Yup, exactly lol