BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
Listen, say all you want about Kojima's writing/storytelling but one thing that you can't deny is his skill with regards to cinematography. In the past, individuals criticized his game as being too much like movies. But, with this criticism comes the acceptance that Kojima's game's have Hollywood level editing and cinematography embedded within them. Now, this is hardly a new revelation, he practically ushered in the game of "cinematic" storytelling with Metal Gear Solid 1. There was pretty much nothing like it at the time and it took a long time for the industry to catch up to MGS1's level when it came to "cinematic" storytelling. Hell, some "cinematic" games released today still aren't as well shot as MGS1.

The Dawn of the Cinematic Game
iuKfkWZ.gif


17JOREG.gif


wnfdmDE.gif


However, Kojima has only improved with each new game, constantly pushing his skills as a Director. I tried to make a thread discussing cinematography in games a while back that barely went anywhere, but figured Kojima specifically is a good point to focus on. Now, I despise the minimal amount of traditional cutscenes and sparse storytelling in MGSV. But, when we do get actual cutscenes Kojima can't help but flex his muscles presenting a bold cinematic style that has its own hidden meanings that support the themes and revelation within the game (even if I hate the underlying message and twist).

MGSV in particular tends to use long, one-shot takes through the use of a handheld camera, almost as if there is a third person in every scene filming everything. This, of course, gives the impression that Snake (and the player) are constantly being watched. Naturally, this feeds into the larger twist that we aren't actually playing BB but a doppelganger whose being carefully observed such that they fulfill their role.

Example A:

BVpspNv.gif


Yet, even more striking is the consistent use of what I'll call "V" Framing. Now, the letter V is a big theme in MGSV. Of course, V refers to the 5th entry in the series. Yet, it is also the codename for Venom Snake, the game literally opens with the statement "V Has Come To." The boxart is Snake making a V symbol which also happens to point toward his eyes. V is also a hand sign we make to signal peace. You get the point. In MGSV, Kojima constantly uses the camera to reinforce the concept of V, framing action and dialogue so that the V is ever present.

See:

giphy.gif


giphy.gif


To continue with this, and something I love about MGSV, is that almost all dialogue attempts to be framed in such a V framing eschewing traditional shot/reverse shot when shooting dialogue. Kojima never wants Snake to be the sole focus of any conversation, conversations are almost always framed with both speakers being visually shown together. Again, it adds to the feeling of paranoia and constantly being watched. Venom Snake is not his own person, instead he is guided by others, mainly his better angels (Ocelot and Miller). Action or the subject of any particular conversation is typically framed in the middle.

giphy.gif


giphy.gif



giphy.gif

And, as stated, the idea that Ocelot and Miller are seen as Venom Snake's guardian angels, individuals that represent opposite ends of his morality and thinking is repeatedly reinforced with the camera as both characters are always framed on opposite sides of Snake, as if angels on his shoulder.

23rxT8r.gif


giphy.gif


TL;DR

Yeah, big deal OP, why are you making a thread about this stuff? Well, because it's damn impressive and with Death Stranding around the corner I can't wait to see Kojima flex his skills some more. I'm making this thread to show an example of top level cinematography in games, something most developers really have no clue about. Most games are shot very traditionally or just straight up bad. Now, do all games need to follow Hollywood cinematography? FUCK NO. Half-Life 2 is a beautifully shot game despite the player having control of the camera at all times. It's an example of great cinematography that can only be achieved through gaming. However, too many games, especially those that are actually trying to be cinematic, are actually shot incredibly bland or boring.

Notable Games with Good Cinematography: Mass Effect series, Uncharted, Deus Ex, Half-Life, The Witcher 3, FROM Games.

So, what do you think? Did you notice this stuff in MGSV? What are games with good cinematography to you?
 
Last edited:

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
They're good, and they have a unique style for sure. Ahead of everyone else? Maybe on an individual level, but honestly stuff like Halo 2 was really good, if held back by the tech. The anniversary cutscenes show this.

While it's not so much cutscenes as presentation, Hellblade is also pretty incredible.

As games focus less on linear grand single player campaigns, we'll see less and less of this kind of stuff.

I think I disagree with Mass Effect having notable cutscene directing. It's bog standard sci fi epic - well done, but nothing incredible. I don't think anything has beaten getting out of the elevator into the closed Citadel in ME1.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
I'm glad Kojima is in the video game industry and not the film industry, because it allows him much more flexibility in terms of cinematography. He can try some truly wild shit and not catch heat for it, which really lets him push the medium. MGS3 blew my mind in 2004 - he's obviously gained a slew of skills since then, but it remains his most complete cinematic package IMO.
 

Terror-Billy

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,460
Wolfenstein 2 has some great camerawork and editing going on. There's some crazy cinematography in there that would be hard to pull off right on a movie.
 

element

Member
Oct 27, 2017
920
kojima is a film director with total creative control in a digital space. no one will or can tell him 'we don't have time' or 'the system wasn't designed for that'.

when you have that level of vision and control, you get great results.
 

TripaSeca

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
São Paulo
I think you're right and I really enjoy looking at all his carefully crafted scenes.
And whenever I switch from a Kojima game to some other with cutscenes, it's like switching from a juicy, flavorful barbecue to a microwave meal.
I immediately feel other people's cutscenes (with rare exceptions) lack soul and I wish companies gave more importance to cinematography and all the meanings we may not even notice (like the V framing that I didn't pick up by myself) but that do indeed make a huge impact on our experience.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,570
USA
His are great though I'd hesitate to call his cinematic flourish ahead of the rest.
 

Steelyuhas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,318
They're good, and they have a unique style for sure. Ahead of everyone else? Maybe on an individual level, but honestly stuff like Halo 2 was really good, if held back by the tech. The anniversary cutscenes show this.

While it's not so much cutscenes as presentation, Hellblade is also pretty incredible.

As games focus less on linear grand single player campaigns, we'll see less and less of this kind of stuff.

I think I disagree with Mass Effect having notable cutscene directing. It's bog standard sci fi epic - well done, but nothing incredible. I don't think anything has beaten getting out of the elevator into the closed Citadel in ME1.
Halo Reach is actually the game that immediately jumped to my mind seeing this thread.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
post gifs of the uncontrollable shitting guy killing hordes of people while making out with a girl and proposing to her.

kojima cutscenes are perhaps the MOST. not the "best" by any metric
 
OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
I think I disagree with Mass Effect having notable cutscene directing. It's bog standard sci fi epic - well done, but nothing incredible. I don't think anything has beaten getting out of the elevator into the closed Citadel in ME1.

Nah, Mass Effect series has consistent amazing cinematography, even ME1.

This is my favorite shot in the whole series due to the obvious sexual imagery:

giphy.gif


And, this is probably the best directed conversation in the whole series:

 
Sep 25, 2018
642
Listen, say all you want about Kojima's writing/storytelling but one thing that you can't deny is his skill with regards to cinematography. In the past, individuals criticized his game as being too much like movies. But, with this criticism comes the acceptance that Kojima's game's have Hollywood level editing and cinematography embedded within them. Now, this is hardly a new revelation, he practically ushered in the game of "cinematic" storytelling with Metal Gear Solid 1. There was pretty much nothing like it at the time and it took a long time for the industry to catch up to MGS1's level when it came to "cinematic" storytelling. Hell, some "cinematic" games released today still aren't as well shot as MGS1.

The Dawn of the Cinematic Game
iuKfkWZ.gif


17JOREG.gif


wnfdmDE.gif


However, Kojima has only improved with each new game, constantly pushing his skills as a Director. I tried to make a thread discussing cinematography in games a while back that barely went anywhere, but figured Kojima specifically is a good point to focus on. Now, I despise the minimal amount of traditional cutscenes and sparse storytelling in MGSV. But, when we do get actual cutscenes Kojima can't help but flex his muscles presenting a bold cinematic style that has its own hidden meanings that support the themes and revelation within the game (even if I hate the underlying message and twist).

MGSV in particular tends to use long, one-shot takes through the use of a handheld camera, almost as if there is a third person in every scene filming everything. This, of course, gives the impression that Snake (and the player) are constantly being watched. Naturally, this feeds into the larger twist that we aren't actually playing BB but a doppelganger whose being carefully observed such that they fulfill their role.

Example A:

BVpspNv.gif


Yet, even more striking is the consistent use of what I'll call "V" Framing. Now, the letter V is a big theme in MGSV. Of course, V refers to the 5th entry in the series. Yet, it is also the codename for Venom Snake, the game literally opens with the statement "V Has Come To." The boxart is Snake making a V symbol which also happens to point toward his eyes. V is also a hand sign we make to signal peace. You get the point. In MGSV, Kojima constantly uses the camera to reinforce the concept of V, framing action and dialogue so that the V is ever present.

See:

giphy.gif


giphy.gif


To continue with this, and something I love about MGSV, is that almost all dialogue attempts to be framed in such a V framing eschewing traditional shot/reverse shot when shooting dialogue. Kojima never wants Snake to be the sole focus of any conversation, conversations are almost always framed with both speakers being visually shown together. Again, it adds to the feeling of paranoia and constantly being watched. Venom Snake is not his own person, instead he is guided by others, mainly his better angels (Ocelot and Miller). Action or the subject of any particular conversation is typically framed in the middle.

giphy.gif


giphy.gif



giphy.gif

And, as stated, the idea that Ocelot and Miller are seen as Venom Snake's guardian angels, individuals that represent opposite ends of his morality and thinking is repeatedly reinforced with the camera as both characters are always framed on opposite sides of Snake, as if angels on his shoulder.

23rxT8r.gif


giphy.gif


TL;DR

Yeah, big deal OP, why are you making a thread about this stuff? Well, because it's damn impressive and with Death Stranding around the corner I can't wait to see Kojima flex his skills some more. I'm making this thread to show an example of top level cinematography in games, something most developers really have no clue about. Most games are shot very traditionally or just straight up bad. Now, do all games need to follow Hollywood cinematography? FUCK NO. Half-Life 2 is a beautifully shot game despite the player having control of the camera at all times. It's an example of great cinematography that can only be achieved through gaming. However, too many games, especially those that are actually trying to be cinematic, are actually shot incredibly bland or boring.

Notable Games with Good Cinematography: Mass Effect series, Uncharted, Deus Ex, Half-Life, The Witcher 3, FROM Games.

So, what do you think? Did you notice this stuff in MGSV? What are games with good cinematography to you?

he is good but he have too much cinematic going on I remember one time I can't remember if it was metal gear 2 or 3 but the cinematic Kept going and going by time it was finish and I can move I was already too tired out and had to turn the game off
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
Nice try, but no. Not even close. Nothing tops this opening comparing it to MGS series. The shots, the setup, the music and introduction to the city is fucking amazing. And that writing, whew.


I mean...the jank of the UE3 camera alone kills what they're going for with that intro.
Kojima's work is more than just set pieces (Infinite). MGS3 opening is basically unmatched in the medium.
 

addik

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,551
It's amazing how much talent was in Konami before they decided to switch gears in their business.

Not only did they have Kojima, they also had Team Silent's cutscene director doing amazing work on Silent Hill:





 

Zenkuso

Member
Jan 28, 2019
568
Given the guy could be an amazing director in cinema given half a chance and he's a movie nut. If you pair him with some just good that can reign in his indulgence you get great stuff.
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
I mean...the jank of the UE3 camera alone kills what they're going for with that intro.
Kojima's work is more than just set pieces (Infinite). MGS3 opening is basically unmatched in the medium.
Not when you are playing on uncap framerate on PC. That video is in 30fps. And you can play the game on 21:9. I disagree with MGS 3 opening compared to Bioshock Infinite. MGS3 is codecs, Comic cut scenes, and oh snap, a HALO jump, lol. Oh and the wannabe James Bond intro that plays after. So no.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
I was replaying MGS V recently and I've thought exactly the same as OP

That scene with Venon putting ashes on his face while looking at the sunset, whew

Also, MGS V's opening act has stellar cinematography. MGS V in general is great on this aspect. His best work yet, I would say

Kojima has a style of his own, which I really appreciate. Of course games such as The Last of Us and Uncharted have some amazing cinematography, but they look more "natural" and not as stylish as a result (that's probably Naughty Dog's whole point, to feel natural, but anyway)

Really looking foward to DS
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
They're good, and they have a unique style for sure. Ahead of everyone else? Maybe on an individual level, but honestly stuff like Halo 2 was really good, if held back by the tech. The anniversary cutscenes show this.
The tech behind Halo 2 Anniversary's cutscenes is nice and shiny, but the cinematography is actually inferior to the original (even with its rough and rushed animations).

Look how they massacred my boy. It used to be such a classy transition.

 

Haklen

Member
Dec 15, 2018
174
People can say anything they want about Kojima, but those MGS V trailers pretty much made me buy Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain based on just how crazy good they were. He's good at what he does, no question.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
Not when you are playing on uncap framerate on PC. That video is in 30fps. And you can play the game on 21:9. I disagree with MGS 3 opening compared to Bioshock Infinite. MGS3 is codecs, Comic cut scenes, and oh snap, a HALO jump, lol. Oh and the wannabe James Bond intro that plays after. So no.

MGS3 came out in 2004.
If you need to resort to petty criticisms like these to place a game released in 2013 above it, it's a good indication that MGS3 has it beat.
 

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
11,029
Nice, I always appreciate a cinematography topic.

Speaking of MGSV long single-shot cutscenes, God of War comes to mind. A lot of technical wizardry and tricks to maintain their no-break single shot vision for the entirety of the game.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
I would have agreed up until MGSV and his decision to do one-shots for everything. I think any kind of blanket decision like that is always going to end up feeling like a gimmick, even if it does result in a few genuinely fantastic shots. Not every scene suits a single take; I would say most don't, to be honest. The word I would use to describe most of MGSV's cinematography is 'laborious'. You can feel it in any conversation scene, where the pacing of the dialogue is ruined by the camera having to frame one speaker, then slooooowly swing around to frame the other speaker before they can begin saying their line.

Add to that the weird obsession with lens flares that come with 'SHING' sound effects, and the embarrassing, schoolboy way the camera has to zoom in on the tits and ass of any female character who enters the frame, and I feel that MGSV's cinematography has some serious problems. But I do think Kojima can still bring it when he wants to.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,692
This could have been a good thread on cutscene cinematography. Instead, it's a dick waving contest.
I would have agreed up until MGSV and his decision to do one-shots for everything. I think any kind of blanket decision like that is always going to end up feeling like a gimmick, even if it does result in a few genuinely fantastic shots. Not every scene suits a single take; I would say most don't, to be honest. The word I would use to describe most of MGSV's cinematography is 'laborious'. You can feel it in any conversation scene, where the pacing of the dialogue is ruined by the camera having to frame one speaker, then slooooowly swing around to frame the other speaker before they can begin saying their line.

Add to that the weird obsession with lens flares that come with 'SHING' sound effects, and the embarrassing, schoolboy way the camera has to zoom in on the tits and ass of any female character who enters the frame, and I feel that MGSV's cinematography has some serious problems. But I do think Kojima can still bring it when he wants to.
The conversation camera is terrible.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Nice try, but no. Not even close. Nothing tops this opening comparing it to MGS series. The shots, the setup, the music and introduction to the city is fucking amazing. And that writing, whew.


The visuals are very pretty, but it's also quite static camera wise, it feels like I'm watching an amusement park ride rather than a scene.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
This could have been a good thread on cutscene cinematography. Instead, it's a dick waving contest.
that's because of the thread title. if it had just been like "kojima has a masterful grasp of directing cut scenes" it wouldn't be a competition, but to be like "kojima is good and everyone else sucks" puts people who disagree immediately on the back foot

it's needlessly hyperbolic
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
MGS3 came out in 2004.
If you need to resort to petty criticisms like these to place a game released in 2013 above it, it's a good indication that MGS3 has it beat.
We are talking about cinematography here. MGS2 to me has MGS3 beat. From intro and other aspects of the game. You mentioned the introduction of the game(MGS3). Which barley shows anything. Criticism is criticism. Not being petty when I am staying on topic and not mentioning other aspects that have nothing to do with the subject.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
We are talking about cinematography here. MGS2 to me has MGS3 beat. From intro and other aspects of the game. You mentioned the introduction of the game(MGS3). Which barley shows anything. Criticism is criticism. Not being petty when I am staying on topic and not mentioning other aspects that have nothing to do with the subject.

Your call dude. I think an opening with a player controlled camera instantly takes said intro/"cinematic" out of contention when a large part of the scene in question - framing - is left in the hands of the viewer.
 
OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,543
I would have agreed up until MGSV and his decision to do one-shots for everything. I think any kind of blanket decision like that is always going to end up feeling like a gimmick, even if it does result in a few genuinely fantastic shots. Not every scene suits a single take; I would say most don't, to be honest. The word I would use to describe most of MGSV's cinematography is 'laborious'. You can feel it in any conversation scene, where the pacing of the dialogue is ruined by the camera having to frame one speaker, then slooooowly swing around to frame the other speaker before they can begin saying their line.

Add to that the weird obsession with lens flares that come with 'SHING' sound effects, and the embarrassing, schoolboy way the camera has to zoom in on the tits and ass of any female character who enters the frame, and I feel that MGSV's cinematography has some serious problems. But I do think Kojima can still bring it when he wants to.

This could have been a good thread on cutscene cinematography. Instead, it's a dick waving contest.

The conversation camera is terrible.

I disagree entirely. I have to look through God of War again, but from what I recall the one-shot camera didn't really add much. However, in MGSV the one-shots serve a point as I laid out in the OP. It reinforces the hidden themes and twists in the game, the paranoia, the fact that Venom Snake is not BB, this is all conveyed through the camera. The V framing is perfect for MGSV. It adds to the game/story as opposed to just being something "stylish."
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
Your call dude. I think an opening with a player controlled camera instantly takes said intro/"cinematic" out of contention when a large part of the scene in question - framing - is left in the hands of the viewer.
You don't have full control of the camera at times and the presentation and imagery don't change. And nowhere in the OP it states anything about "Camera control" Again, comic-book cutscenes with an abundance of codecs shows lack of cinematography fam.