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Oct 25, 2017
21,432
Sweden
That's hyperbolic and unrealistic. Those people that want to play online will do just that with each other or better yet with friends.
souls games are great because they allow and facilitate for people without friends to play coop

if you decrease the player base for coop by including an easy mode you are making the experience worse for those who want to play co-op to help out players but don't have friends to play wit
 
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Oct 25, 2017
21,432
Sweden
souls games' online participation has always been opt-in, splitting the playerbase. their games very explicitly makes players give consent before being able to summon or be invaded (e.g., in dark souls, by spending humanity to go human). dark souls 2 even tried to balance the online by introducing, essentially, experienced based matchmaking to cut down on lopsided battles.


from can do better. so hopefully the difficulty/acccessibility discourse around sekiro will motivate them to do so.
yes, and with an easy mode, a LOT fewer people will choose to opt in, making the experience worse for the current player base
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
yes you used language coined by survivors of rape to describe your personal experience of facing disagreement on an internet forum, thereby implying that the two are in anyway comparable

yikes
Yeah and derailing and misrepresenting my argument are one of the core tenants of the internet alt-righter, but I'll let the mods decide if your speech is appropriate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,432
Sweden
Yeah and derailing and misrepresenting my argument are one of the core tenants of the internet alt-righter, but I'll let the mods decide if your speech is appropriate.
i never called you alt-right, everyone can see that you repeatedly misrepresent my posts by saying i called you alt-right when i never did

(i am sure you think such deliberate misrepresentation of my posts will help you in your attempts to ban bait me)

i just said you used alt-right language, which you indeed did use
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Because that is From Software's decision while making the game, and they clearly have a philosophy that they like to stand by. It doesn't seem to inconvenience them by lack of playerbase or sales, so they seem to be happy with keeping the preset difficulty.

I do not have an issue with that, and even if I did, I'd move on and play something else - not try change a developers game in a way they clearly don't want to happen.

I am not talking about that. I am asking you. What is your problem with an easy mode regardless of what From wants to do. If you personally have no problems with it then I don't know why you are in this discussion in the first place as you just go with whatever the developer does. And From might certainly realize that an easy mode is not such a bad idea.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,890
Again, the m

I am not talking about that. I am asking you. What is your problem with an easy mode regardless of what From wants to do. If you personally have no problems with it then I don't know why you are in this discussion in the first place as you just go with whatever the developer does. And From might certainly realize that an easy mode is not such a bad idea.
That would be a huge realization considering Miyazaki discussed difficulty in their games as far back as the original Dark Souls. And my issue with people wanting a difficulty choice in their games is because From clearly do not want that. I respect their design decisions.

It's literally that simple.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,882
Finland
Here's a good twitter thread by halfcoordinated.


Thanks for sharing this. Halfcoordinated has been a MVP too during this debate, hadn't seen this yet.

This is an older article which was inspider by Cuphead. People have often mentioned how these articles and discussions only pop up when From Soft releases games.
https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...al-glass-ceiling-when-the-git-gud-mental.html I'll put few parts in quotes, rest in the link. And on personal note, I disagree with the statement in the end that "games are supposed to be fun". But I don't think she means "fun" quite that literally. Gaming can bring many kind of feelings, I think "fun" is just a shorthand for enjoyable/entertaining in that text. I've been playing My Child Lebensborn lately, I wouldn't say it's fun. It's heartbreaking, it's educative, it's an empathy game.

The Physical Glass Ceiling: When The Git Gud Mentality Turns Ableist
I used to be a card carrying member of the Git Gud Club. I say "used to," because I've had to rethink that lately. While in the past decade of gaming I've felt a lot of pressure to be an above average player, due to my visibility as a woman (a topic I covered in depth in the collaboration Shooter), it's at odds with another aspect of my identity, that of a disabled person.

For a time, I thought maybe the mentality was mostly harmless. If a game is hard, after all, I should just challenge myself to be better at it. I think part of that may be how I was socially conditioned. Growing up in Evangelicism, I had a lot of influential forces in my life that suggested I accept my environment and adjust my emotional response to it, rather than challenge my surroundings. I notice, then, as a reviewer, I'm often more likely to blame myself for any issues with a game's difficulty. It must be my fault! If I tried harder, I'd be better.

Sometimes, the perception of our own abilities becomes a part of our identity. As a result, it becomes a source of pride. Taken further, we resist the idea that achievement should become more accessible to other people. After all, if more people can achieve what we can, it makes our abilities less distinctive. It takes away what makes us special.
Sometimes that includes me. I have severe joint stiffness and inflammation as a result of my illness, and my hands often cramp around a controller after an hour or so of play. I can't be the only one who has that experience, yet it's often considered niche and thus invalid.

Part of it is that, as a culture, we view things in terms of majority and minority, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Unfortunately this mindset becomes warped to the point where many vilify those in the minority who ask for literally anything. After all, why should they be prioritized when they comprise so little of the population? But while at first glance that may seem reasonable, it often means our most vulnerable citizens' specific survival needs are not met, and as a result they are all but removed from the public eye. We're an inconvenience that gets oh-so-conveniently erased. We become invisible.
When it comes to ableism, it's important to remember that physical limitation goes beyond a person's struggle with certain forms of movement. The issues that affect cognitive performance are not limited to temporary, easily-adjustable problems like fatigue and hunger—they, too, are physical. Studies show that many of the forms of mental performance issues can be tied back to minor brain damage inflicted by neglect and abuse sustained during infancy and childhood, including limited attention span, difficulties with sensory perception, or impaired response times, variables key to playing games. Sometimes, when we mock people's videogame skills, we're actually mocking their trauma. And that's without even getting into how genetics and class play a factor.
 
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DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,573
Texas
I think it's largely because From Software games are very successful critically and financially, and a lot of people who don't enjoy the challenge would like to experience the games without them. So yeah, I don't think this is about making games more accessible. It's about making this one developer's games more accessible for the FOMO crowd who get aggravated dying often.

You didn't see these think-pieces sprout up for Hollow Knight.
Exactly. So many people are all of a sudden huge advocates for the disabled (which under normal circumstances would be very commendable) for this one specific game. It's quite frustrating, seeing people latch onto this group of gamers to attempt to garner moral imperative points for their argument. This shit only every comes up when people are pressed by the latest From title, though this is the first time that it has taken the guise of championing accessibility options for the disabled and wanting infinite slider customization as if that's a reasonable request. I'm sure there are posters in here who have been consistently on message for other games, too, but it's so damn transparent that many are scraping Twitter for whatever tweets by disabled gamers they can find to lend their posts some perceived moral righteousness just because they're shit at a game they want to beat.

No game will ever cover all bases when it comes to accessibility. Hell, Sekiro doesn't even do a particularly bad job of being accessible, with plentiful tutorials, no button mashing, the lack of overly complex combos, and highly descriptive dialogue in game that guides the player to the next objective. Acting like From specifically needs to adopt drastic accessibility measures when their entire design ethos is that their games are challenging and not for everyone seems foolish.
 
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janoGX

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
2,453
Chile
Many people who argued here left, and we're left with the people who call "elitist" to anyone who tries to defend with any base the fact that some games are what they are and we have to deal with it.

Reminder: "Some games are what they are and we have to deal with it."

I still believe some people have FOMO problems and are riding the horse of "accessibility" to make all games a cinematic so we don't need much interaction.

If FROM wants to add easy mode to future games, they're on their rights because they might think it's part of the design, if it doesn't please stop bothering.

Edit: if you try to debate me, I'm just gonna go back on my posts and quote you that back.
 

Deleted member 25445

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
648
Many people who argued here left, and we're left with the people who call "elitist" to anyone who tries to defend with any base the fact that some games are what they are and we have to deal with it.

Reminder: "Some games are what they are and we have to deal with it."

I still believe some people have FOMO problems and are riding the horse of "accessibility" to make all games a cinematic so we don't need much interaction.

If FROM wants to add easy mode to future games, they're on their rights because they might think it's part of the design, if it doesn't please stop bothering.

Edit: if you try to debate me, I'm just gonna go back on my posts and quote you that back.
Pretty much this. Deal with it.
Though I haven't really seen too much of the gaming world legit demand an easy mode over just complaining about it.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
Exactly. So many people are all of a sudden huge advocates for the disabled (which under normal circumstances would be very commendable) for this one specific game. It's quite frustrating, seeing people latch onto this group of gamers to attempt to garner moral imperative points for their argument. This shit only every comes up when people are pressed by the latest From title, though this is the first time that it has taken the guise of championing accessibility options for the disabled and wanting infinite slider customization as if that's a reasonable request. I'm sure there are posters in here who have been consistently on message for other games, too, but it's so damn transparent that many are scraping Twitter for whatever tweets by disabled gamers they can find to lend their posts some perceived moral righteousness just because they're shit at a game they want to beat.
So how do you who discern who is stealing tweets or not? is it possible... that you are engaging in a conspiracy theory because you can't address or refute the arguments? NIce job making my own point by admitting that you only ever hear about these issues when it happens to a Souls game, yes we are invisible and are asking from the highest mountain top. Your precious video game.
 

Deleted member 3190

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,214
I still believe some people have FOMO problems and are riding the horse of "accessibility" to make all games a cinematic so we don't need much interaction.

If FROM wants to add easy mode to future games, they're on their rights because they might think it's part of the design, if it doesn't please stop bothering.

Edit: if you try to debate me, I'm just gonna go back on my posts and quote you that back.
Nobody is asking them to change the game as you play it now. Just to give more options to others. Yes, it is their right to make their game however they want. We are also free to criticize it.
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
Maybe don't assume that folks bring up the accessibility thing for nefarious reasons and consider they actually, just, genuinely care about that??
 

Deleted member 25445

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
648
Yeah, just deal with it. The strongest of positions. Debate me, bro.
The content creators are entitled to maintain their vision. Good games have the best rules, and sometimes they're not for everyone. It is what it is, bro.

To be clear though, I'm still totally fine with people being vocal about the lack of an easy mode. Though it seems like there are those that go further than that? I'm trying to figure out if that's the case here, because the arguments just seem to be running in circles.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
That would be a huge realization considering Miyazaki discussed difficulty in their games as far back as the original Dark Souls. And my issue with people wanting a difficulty choice in their games is because From clearly do not want that. I respect their design decisions.

It's literally that simple.
Again, do you have a problem with easy modes or not? You are arguing a completely different point, which is should we be able to critique and demand certain things from developers. And that is a completely different discussion.
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
Maybe don't assume that folks bring up the accessibility thing for nefarious reasons and consider they actually, just, genuinely care about that??

Then why do the thinkpieces only seem to appear when From games come out? I am sure there are consistent advocates for this stuff but it's not hard to see why someone would find this moralizing disingenuous

I don't know if I said it here or elsewhere but this conversation would probably be a lot less toxic if it wasn't framed around sekiro. To be honest idk what the point of these circular arguments are re: From and Sekiro because they hear the complaints and they have disagreed for over a decade. It's very unlikely they're going to change.
 

giraffereyn

Banned
Jan 20, 2019
327
The content creators are entitled to maintain their vision. Good games have the best rules, and sometimes they're not for everyone. It is what it is, bro.
I am allowed to criticize any developer for anything I wish and I am allowed to be angry at anyone that tries to impede my desire for happiness. Especially anyone that thinks that their experience is more valid than mine.
 

janoGX

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
2,453
Chile
Again, do you have a problem with easy modes or not?

No one has problem with easy modes.

But it feels silly that it's always FROM games who always bring the debate when there's other games with the same issues, rougelikes, metroidvanias, From clones, fighting games, etc. And you don't even bat an eye.

You're literally the "I sleep" meme.
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
Then why do the thinkpieces only seem to appear when From games come out? I am sure there are consistent advocates for this stuff but it's not hard to see why someone would find this moralizing disingenuous
Because they're super popular games that are also pretty difficult? This came up with celeste too, the topic is always in circulation if you know where to look. It's also okay if some people only talk about it every few years when accessibility gets more mainstream attention because it's not something that is going to effect most people, and hence not be on their minds.

Jumping to the conspiratorial "they just want to score points" is fucking wild
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
No one has problem with easy modes.

But it feels silly that it's always FROM games who always bring the debate when there's other games with the same issues, rougelikes, metroidvanias, From clones, fighting games, etc. And you don't even bat an eye.

You're literally the "I sleep" meme.
You certainly got a point in that it seems like only From gets targeted but this is also not really part of the core discussion. If no one has problems with easy modes then this whole thread wouldn't have created 100 pages.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,882
Finland
If we talk about driving games, there has always be an easy mode, you can turn on tc, abs, stability-control, braking assistance, ect.
It has never hurt those games, because they are optional assist.
I don't play on consoles a lot, but isn't auto aim or atleast aim assist somewhat common on shooters too?

People have asked to be more specific what disabilities adjustable difficulty would help with, this probably isn't satisfactory to many but this game accessibility site lists that under cognitive related accessibility and sight related accessibility https://www.specialeffect.org.uk/accessible-gaming-wish-list
Broad difficulty level adjustment: Offer a way to meaningfully adjust the difficulty level of a game to suit the player. Consider extending time, increasing powers, reducing obstacles and so on as appropriate. Consider making what might be considered 'cheats' to some, available as accessibility options. Consider gamer assist modes, such as autotargeting in a first person shooter and steering correction in a driving game to help recover from a spin.
Offer broad difficulty level adjustment: Offer ways to adjust the difficulty level of your game. A visually impaired player may need more time to track and take in what is going on, so offering a way to slow the game down can make things more usable. Likewise, visually impaired players might reasonably be expected to make more mistakes in some games, so offering a way to increase lives, time, energy, or whatever is most appropriate, will again even things out and make playing a more enjoyable experience.
Maybe don't assume that folks bring up the accessibility thing for nefarious reasons and consider they actually, just, genuinely care about that??
Yeah this is what gets me. I really don't feel comfortable opening up fully here, but I do have personal connection to these issues. Not because of myself but people I love. They aren't online to discuss this themselves, so I've rather shared tweets, articles and websites from those who have and tried to keep my friends and family out of this. And while this debate has been going on there's been outside stuff somewhat related to this (not game difficulty but disability related), that has been very hard to handle and really dragging me down. So discussing this has been really frustrating as shows from my earlier posts. And people implying (or straight up claiming) how I don't actually care about differently abled, but just want to play on easy because I'm a bad player has been extremely insulting. I'm not even super interested in FS games and if I did I play on PC anyway. I'm just supporting these options across the medium.
 
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Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
Because they're super popular games that are also pretty difficult? This came up with celeste too, the topic is always in circulation if you know where to look. It's also okay if some people only talk about it every few years when accessibility gets more mainstream attention because it's not something that is going to effect most people, and hence not be on their minds.

Jumping to the conspiratorial "they just want to score points" is fucking wild

So it is FOMO then? Or at least a large part of it is?
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
I don't know if you have ever played a FROM game from the day it releases and actively be part of the online community? It's great to experience some struggles together and encourage each other to pull through. The difficulty, together with uncovering the games secrets, is what creates that strong feeling of "being in it together". You will totally kill that off by adding casual modes. With that said: apart from Sekiro, you can make every FROM game as easy as you like. Just level up your shit.

The FROM games are pure gameplay games. The story is secondary. You don't want a "story" mode with super easy enemies and bosses. It totally kills the core soul of the game and that's not the vision FROM has. The gameplay and difficulty is FROM's unique selling point. Why would you destroy your unique selling point with an easy mode?

Why do you guys continue to peddle this nonsense? How is your play through affected by a difficulty option that you don't have to select? Based solely on this thread, there are a number of you that will continue to play on the standard difficulty, so it's not like you won't be able to join up with others either.

So again, the main experience remains the same on a standard difficulty, and your experience is therefore unaffected by any optional adjustments for people that still want to play on their own. This is literally one of the most asinine discussions I've seen in gaming. You're literally not going to be affected. Why do people suddenly care about how others experience the games?
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
I don't play on consoles a lot, but isn't auto aim or atleast aim assist somewhat common on shooters too?

People have asked to be more specific what disabilities adjustable difficulty would help with, this probably isn't satisfactory to many but this game accessibility site lists that under cognitive related accessibility and sight related accessibility https://www.specialeffect.org.uk/accessible-gaming-wish-list



Yeah this is what gets me. I really don't feel comfortable opening up fully here, but I do have personal connection to these issues. Not because of myself but my loved ones. And while this debate has been going on there's been outside stuff somewhat related to this (not game difficulty but disability related), that has been very hard to handle and really dragging me down. So discussing this has been really frustrating as shows from my earlier posts. And people implying how I don't actually care about differently abled, but just want to play on easy because I'm a bad player has been extremely insulting. I'm not even super interested in FS games and if I did I play on PC anyway. I'm just supporting these options across the medium.

Budi, I had to leave this thread and I saw you already have to leave it once.

I'm putting this thread on ignore, filling up the ignore list and taking a step back.

You put up a good fight and there are others who agree with you. But, its far easier for someone who doesn't care at all to toy with the people who do care and to drive by and put in snide comments.

Its in the FAQ to take care of yourself during these kinds of discussions and just get don't burned out on this. Give some time and it'll be brought up again without the legions of defensive fans worried about something being "stolen" from them.
 

janoGX

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
2,453
Chile
If no one has problems with easy modes then this whole thread wouldn't have created 100 pages.

The 100 pages were reached because of From Software games, go and read each post. The article was created because of FromSoft games being too hard. People try to mask it as "EVERY GAME NEEDS AN EASY MODE" when it's actually a "From games need an easy mode".
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
Guess you mean me. Here:



From games already have easymodes integrated in game. Same difficulty but you can summon if you want watered down experience. Sekiro has 1 boss with NPC helping and this could easily be added for each fight.

It's different than adding multiple game modes.[/QUOTE
Purely hypothetically speaking, if FROM, were to add an easy mode, that didn't affect the game for their core audience, unless driven by ego and exclusivity, why would anyone be against that?
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,573
Texas
Purely hypothetically speaking, if FROM, were to add an easy mode, that didn't affect the game for their core audience, unless driven by ego and exclusivity, why would anyone be against that?
I absolutely wouldn't mind if they added an easy mode, because I trust From to do it in a way that doesn't compromise their vision. I don't think there is a huge contingent of gamers that would be angry with the devs if they decided to add additional options to their games. What I see is mostly people explaining that the devs did not want to in this case and respecting that vision while explaining that in this case the difficulty is core to the experience, followed by people whining and calling those people entitled gatekeeping scum.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
Purely hypothetically speaking, if FROM, were to add an easy mode, that didn't affect the game for their core audience, unless driven by ego and exclusivity, why would anyone be against that?
No one is against that. What people are saying is that let From do what the want. And most likely From will not do easy mode because they want most players to have a specific experience.
Its hard to give all players the same experience so they just go for what they're capable of - which is the current level of difficulty.

They seem to rather have 10 people play the game and experience this challenging uphill battle vs the same 10 plus 5 who will just tourist mode the game.
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
No one is against that. What people are saying is that let From do what the want. And most likely From will not do easy mode because they want most players to have a specific experience.
Its hard to give all players the same experience so they just go for what they're capable of - which is the current level of difficulty.

They seem to rather have 10 people play the game and experience this challenging uphill battle vs the same 10 plus 5 who will just tourist mode the game.
There are definitely people against it. Just check out the old site when people thought that Miyazaki was considering an easier game mode for Dark Souls.
 

Onikage

Member
Feb 21, 2018
414
1 - Souls always had an easy mode, called summoning. And even if you are hardcore and want to play offline, there is another easy mode: farming. You can get as strong as you want in a Souls game, but not in sekiro.

2 - Some people are saying "not every game should appeal to everyone". But here is the problem: Sekiro does appeal to a lot of people. I have a lot of Souls and Tenchu fans that really want to play the game, they love it, but they are being stimulated to stop playing because of the difficulty of some bosses. Some people love the core gameplay but don't want to spend hours stuck every 15 min learning how to beat a boss.

3 - "Sekiro is not hard, you just have to learn the boss fight" or "Sekiro is not hard, and I spent 6 hours in the last boss". If we take this argument, no game is hard, nothing in life is hard. Of course everyone can finish sekiro, with enough time. Anyone can spend 40h to learn a piano song, or 3 hours to learn how to kill a Boss. Is piano easy now?

I am actually going to finish the game, and I love it. But I am a competitive player. I just don't like when people insult casual gamers saying that Sekiro is not a hard game. I play games for 25 years, long enough to know when something is hard, specially for other people. Just check the psn trophy list and see how far the community is in Sekiro, and how many beat the game. I loooove this game, but in the end, all people want is coop, or farming, and this was never a problem in the Souls games, or even Nioh.
 
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Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
The 100 pages were reached because of From Software games, go and read each post. The article was created because of FromSoft games being too hard. People try to mask it as "EVERY GAME NEEDS AN EASY MODE" when it's actually a "From games need an easy mode".
Not really. There's been a lot of talk concerning all games in general. But outside of this topic specifically, on twitter and in other circles, we've been using From as a springboard to talk about this industry-wide
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,299
i agree, an easy mode never ruined any game.

but i would also say that lack of an easy mode never ruined any game either.
Yes. This only goes to show how the Kotaku article (and most of the rhetoric around this discussion) is really mostly a giant strawman.
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
I see this thread is still going nowhere, and I believe part in that is because people are coming from very different views on what the FROM games are about - so here's my take.

What makes FROM games special is the fact that you have to adopt and develop as a player according to the challenge the game consists of. Now, a lot of other games I don't mind however many difficulty settings you add - but doing so in a FROM game would severly damage what makes them special and unique. If that were to pass, they'd just be another game among the already huge amount of other good games.

The FROM games touch something that is very rare today, and something a lot of people don't seem to value - but I would argue something important. The notion of having a difficult task ahead of you - and after a varying effort succeding in that task (if you set your mind to it and persevere) is an incredible feeling. It might be an age thing, but many of the opinions I read here are along the lines of "I don't want a challenge, I just want to enjoy the game" - and that's fine! But not every game has to be like that.

FROM has gathered a very devout fanbase just because people value the challenge offered and the feeling of finally overcoming it. It's about challenging yourself in the same manner as running a marathon. A marathon is a set distance and people have various difficulties completing one - but when you finally do, you can feel the reward in having completed something that at the start seemed impossible. You don't say you ran a marathon if you rode a bike, or you don't say you climbed a mountain if you took a ski lift. Pardon the exaggerated examples - but the principle is the same in FROMs games.

There's ONE set of rules for each game - completing the challenge means you and everyone else who completed it went through the same thing. And that's what makes it special. FROMs game's aren't about what happens on the screen, it's what happens to you. And that would be ruined if you could set your own rules.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Yeah, It's all about elitism.

Fromsoft are elitists confirmed.

Because even if the person wouldn't play the game "as designed" if played on easy mode, so what? They will find joy anyway. They will experience the game differently, and that's the beauty about it ...

Not really an option when the creator decides there is a way it should be played and enforces that through their design.

So again, Fromsoft elitist confirmed I guess.

No one has the same experience when making contact with art, so the argument that "it hurts the artform" is such bulshit.
No one experiences the same when watching a movie or a painting. Games can do the same, offering different experiences and still being considered as art.

And so with this Miyazaki is now full of shit as well. As is his team apparently. And logically yes, this is where you would have to stand for this to hold. Which is your place to be if you chose it I guess.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
I see this thread is still going nowhere, and I believe part in that is because people are coming from very different views on what the FROM games are about - so here's my take.

What makes FROM games special is the fact that you have to adopt and develop as a player according to the challenge the game consists of. Now, a lot of other games I don't mind however many difficulty settings you add - but doing so in a FROM game would severly damage what makes them special and unique. If that were to pass, they'd just be another game among the already huge amount of other good games.

The FROM games touch something that is very rare today, and something a lot of people don't seem to value - but I would argue something important. The notion of having a difficult task ahead of you - and after a varying effort succeding in that task (if you set your mind to it and persevere) is an incredible feeling. It might be an age thing, but many of the opinions I read here are along the lines of "I don't want a challenge, I just want to enjoy the game" - and that's fine! But not every game has to be like that.

FROM has gathered a very devout fanbase just because people value the challenge offered and the feeling of finally overcoming it. It's about challenging yourself in the same manner as running a marathon. A marathon is a set distance and people have various difficulties completing one - but when you finally do, you can feel the reward in having completed something that at the start seemed impossible. You don't say you ran a marathon if you rode a bike, or you don't say you climbed a mountain if you took a ski lift. Pardon the exaggerated examples - but the principle is the same in FROMs games.

There's ONE set of rules for each game - completing the challenge means you and everyone else who completed it went through the same thing. And that's what makes it special. FROMs game's aren't about what happens on the screen, it's what happens to you. And that would be ruined if you could set your own rules.

Agree with all the above. Much of the allure surrounding FromSoft Games stems from their unconquerable mystique; their uncompromising design philosophy. The analogy of climbing a mountain is an apt one: I've never personally done it, but I'm guessing you'd feel slightly daft if you scaled a mountainside on-foot only to find a cable car leading down the other side.

There are certainly games you can play through on easy and lose little of the experience. The Witcher 3 on 'Just the Story' is no less compelling because the core of the experience – the characters, story, setting and world design – are unaffected by the level of challenge.

Miyazaki games on the other hand are built entirely around their difficulty: the sense of desperation and dread, the daunting sense of scale and unrelenting hostility which permeates the world-building and art direction are all mirrored and heightened through the gameplay and challenge (at least for Demon Soul's through to Bloodborne, I'm not sure Sekiro is such a finely-honed game in this manner).

Honestly, it'd be weird to encounter some monstrous foe like Ludwig or Pontiff Sulyvahn and have them knocking you about with little kitten punches – to see them wind up some hammer-blow of an attack for it to only knock 10% off your HP.

There's an atmosphere conjured by the art direction, sound design and animation of the Souls games which naturally compliment the high difficulty – each facet contributes its own part to overall aesthetic. No one would suggest that a more chilled out soundtrack, or more family-friendly art direction ought to be added to the Souls games to give them a wider appeal, even though the difficulty is just as crucial in creating and maintaining the feeling the creators were aiming for.

The minute you accept this reality – that the sense of the threat and dread so central to the Souls series owes a great deal to its uncompromising difficulty – arguing that these games wouldn't be 'ruined' by an easy mode is like arguing that The Texas Chainsaw Massacre wouldn't be ruined by rerecording the entire soundtrack on a kazoo.

It might make the film more manageable for those that struggle with horror movies, and those that prefer the original soundtrack could still watch it that way (this is only optional, remember!), but you'd absolutely have ruined it from an artistic perspective.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,959
Osaka, Osaka
I've been an outsider to this debate (havent played Sekiro yet. just finally beat DMC5 last night), but damn everywhere there seems to be strawman-ing.

That or pretending there's some third side that's actually just another argument of one of the two sides.

My thoughts as an outsider who has not even played Sekiro yet:

1. I think I'm leaning towards the "easy modes are cool" side.

2. I don't use easy modes almost ever (except for the rare occasion a game I've already played has a good story, and I mostly just want to experience that, but I dont have time for those playthroughs as often as I'd like).

3. However, I don't care if anyone else uses an easy mode. In fact, when available, sometimes I suggest them if I know somebody's play ability well enough. If they're not ready for a more complex or demanding game, why tell them to do something they wont enjoy? Folks have limited time, and as an ambassador of the medium to many friends who are new to games, I try to make folks have a good time. I don't expect kids to love 1984 more than The Cat in the Hat. The Cat in the Hat is still a damn good book. However, this might be part of why I don't like kids. I'm getting off-topic here.

4. I don't think anyone is going to make From Software change their game. The Kempeitai aren't going to come and behead anybody. So nobody needs to protect the artist here. Especially when their work is both critically acclaimed and financially successful.

5. As someone who wants to make games, I don't think I would want to spend much time making easy mode balances in my own game. Balancing and development overall is complicated and tiring enough as it is.

6. I'm probably going to have a good time with Sekiro in its current form, but would love for folks with disabilties or even who just cant be bothered to train their "action game literacy" to have fun, even if it's a different fun.

7. I'm not sure if anyone really knows what the creator's intentions were with the game. Seems like a lot of guessing out there from both sides. I'm sure the difficulty is intentional, though personally, I don't think most of their games are all that difficult. Punishing, definitely. Complex, to an extent. I mean, I thought Demon's Souls was hard for a while...but then I thought it was easy once I moved through the learning curve, and every other Souls game was immediately no problem for me. Bloodborne had some hard bosses, but for the most part, the game was pretty easy. Just time consuming.
I don't know how you'd make those games easier without making them boring. They don't have exceptional AI, so if you simply just weaken enemies or buff the players defense, a lot of what the game has going for it (the mystery of what's ahead behind the next boss) might fall apart.

EDIT:
8.
I think Complexity and Difficulty in games are 2 different design tools( maybe not the best word), but not the same thing.
I think From games are somewhat complicated, but moderate in difficulty.
I think Ghosts and Goblins for NES is simple but super difficult, if not unfair.
I think Streets of Rage 2 is just about as simple, but less difficult, while still being hard.
I think Devil Mary Cry 5 is very complicated, but somewhat easy.
I think games are the most engaging for the most people when there's a good balance of both. Too complicated might bore someone if there's no challenge worthy of the investment put into it, and too difficult will make folks feel like they never stood a chance if they dont see much room for improvement.
Maybe that's a different topic altogether, but as someone interesting in game design, it interests me greatly.




So I don't really see what's at stake either way. If From makes changes to their game, I dont think much is lost by that. If they dont and you cant enjoy Sekiro, you can always just avoid From games. They dont make any, and if they want your dollars back, they can fight for them.

So yeah, there's my uninformed take. I'll probably start the game this weekend.
 
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janoGX

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
2,453
Chile
Not really. There's been a lot of talk concerning all games in general. But outside of this topic specifically, on twitter and in other circles, we've been using From as a springboard to talk about this industry-wide

Not really? Serious?

4 THREADS made about the same thing, only different on the titles and the OP post content just so an entire agenda could roll. All 4 threads point to From, all 4 threads talk about the """"""""""accessibility"""""""""" problem.

I really think this is backlash to FromSoft after they did Sekiro difficult. Because to any other game you don't even say anything. Using this as a springboard? Again, whenever a hard game comes out you don't say anything.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
4. I don't think anyone is going to make From Software change their game. The Kempeitai aren't going to come and behead anybody. So nobody needs to protect the artist here. Especially when their work is both critically acclaimed and financially successful.

That doesn't make sense. It feels like your saying that since they don't explicitely need defense that people can't agree with them or stand against being vilified for agreeing with them.

7. I'm not sure if anyone really knows what the creator's intentions were with the game. Seems like a lot of guessing out there from both sides.

WE HAVE THE DAMN RECEIPTS!
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,573
Texas
That doesn't make sense. It feels like your saying that since they don't explicitely need defense that people can't agree with them or stand against being vilified for agreeing with them.



WE HAVE THE DAMN RECEIPTS!
7. I'm not going to read the thread at all, or the 50 times that the quote from the developer has been posted, but I think everyone else is guilty of making assumptions without looking at information first.