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nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
It's a ludicrous expectation that the sequel won' have less to do than it's predecessor?

Destiny 2 has way more to do than its predecessor. More patrols, missions, caves, new adventures, more story missions, powers, vendors, larger game worlds etc.

A key difference is D2 isn't nearly as stingy with its loot, and isn't nearly as grindy either. Ultimately in D2, unlike D1, there's less reason to repeat the same stuff over and over, which in my opinion is a good thing which better respects my time.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
How about just trying to design some weapons, armor and mods that are interesting and empowering? Stop thinking about PVP/PVE balance and just make some cool shit. Throw those weapons/items into the game and see what happens. The audience is going to stick with you if it throws off the Crucible......but not if you just keep making the same boring junk over and over.

It's sad that there's so much exotic armor where the perk is basically just something that used to be part of a Class's talent specialization.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,197
Their biggest mistake was that you can get max gear outside of the raid. Should have been 290 max without nightfall/raiding and then 300 gear drops in nightfall, 310 gear drops in raid with Iron Banner filling in for night fall and Trails for the raid on the PVP side. There should be unique cool looking armor sets in raid, good weapons in raid.
 
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Lord Brady

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,392
Crediting one person for that is a little generous, like I said. I'd also argue TTK implemented as many negative things as positive.
TTK seemed good because it was the first time missions didn't actually suck. It was a low bar Bungie needed to hit, and they hit it. Everything else they did was just leading to what we have now.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
Most of the "change" stuff I've seen from veterans is more along the lines of "hey we thought you had this figured out to some extent in D1(some people think Pre-ttk, some think post-ttk), what happened?" as opposed to "make this game a sim as opposed to an arcade racer." The Mario Kart to Gran Turismo comparison is frankly a pretty terrible comparison.

I'm sure you seen the change lists floating around on Twitter/Reddit...or in this thread...it would be a completely different game for only people experienced with FPS games. I mean look at just this thread...you got people saying TTK ruined D1...people says TTK saved D1...how is Bungie supposed to do both? Destiny 2 was never meant to be a competitor to Battlefield or CoD.

How could they institute the changes mentioned by people here without making the game significantly more difficult to play and enjoy for the general gaming public?
 

Socivol

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,656
I'm pretty surprised it sold so well considering what happened with the first Destiny. As long as people keep buying games like this in droves I don't really see the incentive for developers or publishers to care.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,461
Shit posting? Bungie has no idea what they are doing. I have listed the reasons why i think so already. They have no direction. And what Direction they do have, is usually the wrong one.

The direction is abundantly clear

One and Done casual play that cycles fans in and out till the next content drop

Sure they have persistent elements but its designed around casual play. They diverted from D1 precedent with clear intent and have went out of their way to say this again and again when people would badger Luke Smith about the changes in the interviews
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Bingo. Posting this again:

Trying to assign a x hours = y dollars value is fucking stupid anyway. Your time can't be valued like damned square footage in a house. The reasons we play games have little to do with whether or not they were affordable.

If it takes you 200 hours to get through a games content and it wasn't fulfilling, then the amount of that content means little. You can try to convince yourself you're okay with it because of the value but if it was a mediocre experience, it was a mediocre experience, regardless of the price.

Opposition likes to point at your time played and be like "Oh you didn't get your money's worth? " like the amount of time I played a game having faith that it would get better is some kind of goddamned consolation.
All of this. I put 500 hours into destiny 1. If I could cut out all the time I spent doing activities and grinding that I didn' want to be doing but had to to reach the content I wanted to llay, if cut that time in half if not more. Terrible metric to use universally for all players.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
Bingo. Posting this again:

Trying to assign a x hours = y dollars value is fucking stupid anyway. Your time can't be valued like damned square footage in a house. The reasons we play games have little to do with whether or not they were affordable.

If it takes you 200 hours to get through a games content and it wasn't fulfilling, then the amount of that content means little. You can try to convince yourself you're okay with it because of the value but if it was a mediocre experience, it was a mediocre experience, regardless of the price.

Opposition likes to point at your time played and be like "Oh you didn't get your money's worth? " like the amount of time I played a game having faith that it would get better is some kind of goddamned consolation.

I have an honest question...for the people that played past the end of the campaign: why did you continue playing? Literally every complaints says that they played to 280-305, which takes awhile. If I had the same complaints, I would not have even played a full hour.
If you dislike this game, what did you see that made you play as long as you did? You liked everything before the campaign ended?

Why put up with even 1 hour of a poor or mediocre experience?
 

Bryo4321

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,511
The direction is abundantly clear

One and Done casual play that cycles fans in and out till the next content drop

Sure they have persistent elements but its designed around casual play. They diverted from D1 precedent with clear intent and have went out of their way to say this again and again when people would badger Luke Smith about the changes in the interviews
I feel like they took this to an extreme. The diablo team adopted the same philosophy, but there are still a million and one small carrots to chase in that game. I feel like Destiny 2 doesn't have any. Shoot even daily missions/strikes like the first game had for awhile would be nice.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
That's your opinion. Gunplay alone makes one of the best shooters on the market imo, and I thought it was a well executed sci-fi campaign shooter with a still relatively unique shared world mechanic. The multiplayer is fun imo, and the team mechanic of it is refreshing vs something like BF1 where you basically just get sniped from across the map constantly and the weapon unlocks make it way too unbalanced. It got pretty good reviews for a reason, despite the criticisms from players who have probably sunk hundreds of hours into it which is an extremely small percentage of the player base. Could the game be better? Yes. In my opinion it's not a "bad shooter" though.
The campaign was really bad. Forcing you to walk through long hallways without a sparrow, killing major characters off screen and then never referring to them again, very little actual diversity in mission objectives, hardly any vehicle sections, all noteworthy characters (class leaders, quest givers) just stand there to hand out tokens and never follow you/help you in missions. To top it all off, the story was junk and the player learns nothing about the in game universe other than the idea that maaaaybe the traveler is alive. Which is something we were already told in destiny 1. Yet a ton of questions /mysteries introduced in destiny 1 are forgotten or ignored.

And any shooter that has 4v4 locked pvp with poor weapon balance and no way to choose game types has bad pvp.

Destiny 2 has good shooting and it's a beautiful game. But I would never in a million years suggest someone buy it to play the campaign or the crucible.
 
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Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,387
I'm pretty surprised it sold so well considering what happened with the first Destiny. As long as people keep buying games like this in droves I don't really see the incentive for developers or publishers to care.

The current AAA business model (GaaS) is predicated on keeping as many users playing as possible. Selling a large number of units at launch is great but ultimately if the majority of people drop the game you are less likely to make money off micro transactions which are now a significant source of revenue for the major publishers.
 
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DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,461
I have an honest question...for the people that played past the end of the campaign: why did you continue playing? Literally every complaints says that they played to 280-305, which takes awhile. If I had the same complaints, I would not have even played a full hour.
If you dislike this game, what did you see that made you play as long as you did? You liked everything before the campaign ended?

Why put up with even 1 hour of a poor or mediocre experience?

Personally I loved it all up until I finished everything (basically once raid/nightfalls interest died out)

They built it less as a loot game and more as a collection game (their words) so once you are done.... thats it. Took me about a month or so to get there and I played what I feel is the average amount
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Destiny 2 has way more to do than its predecessor. More patrols, missions, caves, new adventures, more story missions, powers, vendors, larger game worlds etc.

A key difference is D2 isn't nearly as stingy with its loot, and isn't nearly as grindy either. Ultimately in D2, unlike D1, there's less reason to repeat the same stuff over and over, which in my opinion is a good thing which better respects my time.
Destiny 1 had more loot worth having. That's why people are critical of D2's end game and expected to have a similar experience to d1. You preferring it this way doesn't make people who wanted it to be like it was in the past game and criticizing this method ludicrous.
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,411
I have an honest question...for the people that played past the end of the campaign: why did you continue playing? Literally every complaints says that they played to 280-305, which takes awhile. If I had the same complaints, I would not have even played a full hour.

It really doesn't take that long, honestly. I have a friend that reached 275 playing just north of 20 hours over the last 4 days.

I would also argue that the problems people have with the endgame don't actually show themselves until they are basically at the point in which you are talking about. It falls off a cliff pretty hard out of nowhere.
 
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thezboson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
I never experienced the hype surrounding Destiny 1, my first contact with the game was the alpha. I fell in love instantly (and was definitely hooked after a 21/0 Crucible match).
The Vault of Glass was one of those defining moments in gaming. Entering VoG was like exciting the severs in Oblivion, one of those feelings you can only have a few times in your gaming life.

But as the game progressed it became more and more predatory. They introduced new hooks to coerce players to play (and for us to coerce each other, I restarted after a bunch of friends wanted someone to play with - that is the real reason for no matchmaking btw). The new content was not as fun to me as the first batch. People lauded the story, but I never felt the expansions added any significant amount of story at all.

The MP constantly moved away from what the hardcore crowd wanted, and I genuinely don't understand why since it certainly did not benefit us casuals.
I was also super addicted to ToC and I am pretty fucking sure they used the same algorithms as casinos do to get players to keep playing. Finally the loot boxes and MTs.

Destiny 2 on PC was great news, since that meant that my friends would migrate and not put pressure on me to play.
Glad I never supported D2. If Bungie ever can make a shooter RPG without all the bullshit addiction mechanics (and with a different publisher) I know I am in, but Destiny is over for me. Just my two cents.
 

Gloomz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,402
Still scratching my head in how Bungie could fumble this badly on a sequel with as much money as they have and all the experience and resolutions they encountered after D1. For some reason I expected D2 to be this monolithic game changer. As of now, it has a shitty single player, where you kill the Big Bad Guy with a normal quality sub-machine gun and then walk around and patrol the same 3 boring areas.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
I have an honest question...for the people that played past the end of the campaign: why did you continue playing? Literally every complaints says that they played to 280-305, which takes awhile. If I had the same complaints, I would not have even played a full hour.
If you dislike this game, what did you see that made you play as long as you did? You liked everything before the campaign ended?

Why put up with even 1 hour of a poor or mediocre experience?

Because Destiny actually IS a solid shooter and has a gameplay loop that is (at least superficially) very compelling.

Plus, co-op has extended the life of many a mediocre game. That definitely applies here.

Then you also had that vocal chorus, both externally and in your head, saying "Maybe the real game actually DOES start at lvl 20/the raid/light level 280/etc"

Who knows how much of my playtime was spent farming patrols and/or trying to get my light level up JUST so I could experience or survive the endgame content.

The campaign was really bad. Forcing you to walk through long hallways without a sparrow, killing major characters off screen and then never referring to them again, very little actual diversity in mission objectives, hardly any vehicle sections, all noteworthy characters (class leaders, quest givers) just stand there to hand out tokens and never follow you/help you in missions. To top it all off, the story was junk and the player learns nothing about the in game universe other than the idea that maaaaybe the traveler is alive. Which is something we were already told in destiny 1. Yet a ton of questions /mysteries introduced in destiny 1 are forgotten or ignored.

And any shooter that has 4v4 locked pvp with poor weapon balance and no way to choose game types has bad pvp.

Destiny 2 has good shooting and it's a beautiful game. But I would never in a million years suggest someone buy it to play the campaign or the crucible.

It's also not really good sci-fi, at all. The lore introduced some very cool concepts, but the core game is faithful to its fantasy RPG origins. All the cool shit was relegated to offscreen information. Sci-fi in Destiny is just a sweet looking skin for the entire game.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
It's certainly not pulling me in very much. I enjoyed the first one quite a bit, but burnt out quickly after reaching the level cap.

I guess I was hoping for a Diablo 1 to Diablo 2 type of improvement with this game, but it really does feel like more of the same (and in the same amount), but somewhat simplified and with a different backdrop.

At least the shooting part is still satisfying.
 

Leafhopper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,047
whats the problem with the PC version?
It came out almost 2 months later, with no cross save, and people on PC (at least some I seen on here and some of my friends) are already tired of it and gone back to other games, even with it's better framerate, resolution and graphics. All for better console sales.

PvP needs sparrows and big maps and vehicles.

:waxes nostalgic about halo:
I played the beta and if it did have that I would legit think about getting it lol.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,171
Mars
Of course, we've been here before. Since Destiny's launch in September 2014, the veteran development studio has seemed unwilling or unable to be transparent with fans. (From what I hear, the company remains unwilling or unable to be transparent with many of its own employees, too.) As Destiny went through its ups and downs, Bungie never stopped obfuscating, doing its best to keep even the most basic mechanics as opaque as possible, sticking with marketing plans full of smarmy teases and dripfeed PR streams.

c'mon Bungie. Get it together.
 

Gammacide

Member
Oct 27, 2017
173
The loot system killed D2 for me. The Crucible was always fun and the opportunity for reward was always after each match. Then in D2 I have to play match after match to get tokens for just one chance at loot. Usually I can get entire IB sets for my characters in one IB cycle. Now? I got two guns and an armor piece. It's just not a good use of my time anymore.
 

Skeleton

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,240
It came out a month late, with no cross save, and people on PC (at least some I seen on here and some of my friends) are already tired of it and gone back to other games, even with it's better framerate, resolution and graphics. All for better console sales.


I played the beta and if it did have that I would legit think about getting it lol.
loool PC was a month late to give them ample time to make sure it didn't release like absolute shit and could focus on the first PC game they've done in YEARS.

D2 has enough issues without making them up like you are now.
 

Leafhopper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,047
loool PC was a month late to give them ample time to make sure it didn't release like absolute shit and could focus on the first PC game they've done in YEARS.

D2 has enough issues without making them up like you are now.
I heard that excuse a million times with games and they have marketing deals with Sony. The game also ran fine for the beta for me and most people from my understanding so I never understood the "So it didn't release like absolute shit." angle.

Hey at least it did come out and ran fine I though. I heard that from other developers and the PC versions of games still come out in tatters so *shrug*
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
I would also argue that the problems people have with the endgame don't actually show themselves until they are basically at the point in which you are talking about. It falls off a cliff pretty hard out of nowhere.

This is the main part I don't get...according to many critics (not saying you agree with all of this)...every part of the loot system is terrible, the PvP is terrible, the campaign is terrible, the story is terrible, the strikes are terrible, the enemies are the same as D1, all the guns and armor is mostly the same, exotics are a waste of time...getting access to Raids was supposed to change that? Or, did people expect the loot to get easier or more plentiful to obtain after hitting 265?

From my perspective, it seems like life after 265 would be a nightmare for people that are having these issues. What dramatic change in gameplay did people expect at 265 or 280 to justify the slog of the previous 264/279 levels (again, just asking and trying to understand)?
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
The real fucked up thing is that there's no one else to blame but Bungie and the decisions they made. This IS the game they wanted to make. They meticulously made everything the way they wanted to make it. Loot is the way it's supposed to be, pvp is the way it's supposed to be and the raid is the way it's supposed to be. Nothing hindered them this time.
It's not inexperience with this type of game, it's not because the game engine sucks, it's not because they didn't have enough time to finish the game and it's definitely not because fans can't accept change. It's just their awful choices.

Bungie hasn't backed down or admitted being wrong about any of the choices they made pertaining to Destiny since day one and they're not going to start now. These guys are too far up their ass.

I have next to nothing nice to say about Bungie or Destiny so I won't get into it, but yeah, this post makes total sense to me. Personally I find it ridiculous when people claim Bungie is so great. They've never made anything that tells me they're actually anything special. As you can probably tell, I am no fan of Halo. But anyways, I'm doing what I said I wouldn't do so I'll stop.

I don't think it's always the publisher's fault. I get the feeling Bungie is down with all this. You think they don't love raking in the dough? Didn't they hire some journalist from 1up as one of their key people? Luke Smith? Is Jeff Gertsmann gonna work at Platinum next? Maybe he studied game design somewhere, I dunno. I assume he did since he got hired there...

I freely admit I'm not well versed on the matter. Just speaking my mind. Feel free to correct/educate me if I'm wrong.

I just feel completely unfazed when I hear stories like this. I just feel like it's no surprise to me. It makes sense to me Bungie would be like this.
 

Neato

Member
Nov 17, 2017
29
never played destiny 1 but got destiny 2 on pc with high hopes of it being fun because apparently they fixed all the mediocre shit throughout the lifetime of destiny 1 so i assumed that destiny 2 would be continuing from there. The only thing i can say is actually enjoyable is the "gunplay" but otherwise all the rpg elements are extremely bad, nearly no real differences between classes, really boring skill trees, limited use of exotics that are rarely more than a minor stat increase, the cooldown on skills take far too fucking long, lack of in-game communication and grouping tools, and absurdly dull pvp mode in what i assumed would be halo but with class based magic bullshit but is instead small map group skirmishes with occasional magic bullshit that just feels cheap when you die to it.
 

Socivol

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,656
The current AAA business model (GaaS) is predicated on keeping as many users playing as possible. Selling a large number of units at launch is great but ultimately if the majority of people drop the game you are less likely to make money off micro transactions which are now a significant source of revenue for the major publishers.

I get that but selling a lot upfront for full price will probably offset any microtransaction losses. Additionally, this happened with the first Destiny and after a successful launch of an expansion I can see all of those players going back. After what happened with D1 I think it should be pretty obvious that Bungie doesn't care too much about player satisfaction.
 

BIG J

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,313
i was really disappointed. felt no reason to play. exotics were dropping too quickly, most of the armors and weapons felt blah, pvp was too slow paced for me,...
hopefully the game improves with each expansion, but not really counting on it
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,411
This is the main part I don't get...according to many critics (not saying you agree with all of this)...every part of the loot system is terrible, the PvP is terrible, the campaign is terrible, the story is terrible, the strikes are terrible, the enemies are the same as D1, all the guns and armor is mostly the same, exotics are a waste of time...getting access to Raids was supposed to change that? Or, did people expect the loot to get easier or more plentiful to obtain after hitting 265?

From my perspective, it seems like life after 265 would be a nightmare for people that are having these issues. What dramatic change in gameplay did people expect at 265 or 280 to justify the slog of the previous 264/279 levels (again, just asking and trying to understand)?

No, it's because in order for some people to actually find that out, they had to get there, and the fact that different people view only some of those things as bad means that they could reach that power level by doing the things that they like (for example, public events with friends).

I think you are generalizing a pretty decently sized group that all have their own individual criticisms of the game (for example, I think the narrative is really bad as is the PvP, but I don't think the strikes are bad although I do think they are under utilized) that you are clumping up and saying the whole group has a problem with all of it.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
Their biggest mistake was that you can get max gear outside of the raid. Should have been 290 max without nightfall/raiding and then 300 gear drops in nightfall, 310 gear drops in raid with Iron Banner filling in for night fall and Trails for the raid on the PVP side. There should be unique cool looking armor sets in raid, good weapons in raid.

I think the lack of actual RPG elements is also making things feel boring. Everything essentially becomes cosmetic outside of hitting your light level and R/R/M priorities. It just makes it so there's nothing interesting about the gear. I would really like to be "highly suggested" from a gameplay perspective of owning full gear sets of Raid/Iron Banner/Trials gear due to a specific gameplay advantage that isn't something minor like "increased respawn time." At some point, balance needs to be on a lower pole of importance given the sort of game this is--this isn't counter strike.

For example for Trials: Wear full trials gear (no exotic) and get a mercy boon making going flawless easier.
For iron banner: Destiny 1 style IB loot reward RNG after each match for participation
 

Goose Se7en

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,002
Destiny 2, to say the least has been incredibly dumbed down and worst of all it's a disappointment. I'm of the mindset that the heads of Bungie have horribly mismanaged the development of this game and moreover I think it has to do with the tech Bungie is using to develop Destiny. I remember Schreier mentioning how the tools Bungie uses makes it hard to reiterate on levels, design etc on his "Messy Story of Destiny's development"