[Kotaku] Console Players Can’t Beat The Division 2’s Raid

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,377
More than 24 hours since it launched, the Division 2’s raid has only been cleared by people playing the game on PC. Players on Xbox One and PS4 have failed repeatedly, leading to discussions that the raid is far too difficult for those playing on console.

The raid, called Operation Dark Hours, is set in a fictionalized version of Washington DC’s Reagan National Airport and challenges eight players to battle from the entryway to the tarmac, facing four major boss battle encounters along the way.

The first team to complete the raid did so just over five hours after it launched at 5pm ET on Thursday. They were playing on PC, and, within minutes, other PC players followed. Leaderboards for the raid on PS4 remain empty. When we were last able to check the Xbox One’s leaderboards at 3pm ET today, those were empty, too.
https://kotaku.com/console-players-can-t-beat-the-division-2-s-raid-1834854695

Is this still true?
 

Trace

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,370
Canada
It's probably still true, but it's more that the only people who have beaten it are the elite of the elite, and those all play on PC. Marco made a joke earlier about if they send his raid group 8 consoles they'll beat it on console.
 

Bashteee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
481
Incursions or what they were called in Division 1 were also pretty tough with a controller, so no surprise there tbh.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,177
not sure i could stand to play Division with a controller. did it off and on with Divison 1 and it was okay but only running around doing side stuff
 

kinoki

Member
Oct 28, 2017
741
Either a shooter is designed for consoles up (like Destiny) or they play really bad on anything but a PC. FPSs I’ve enjoyed on console but I’ve found to difficult to play or simply where I’ve felt my enjoyment impaired by a PC-focused design, I’ve often just switched to the PC version.
 

TAJ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,212
Unless they rebalance for console, shooters are always going to be more difficult on console than on PC.
 

illamap

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
466
I often feel like swedish devs (DICE, Massive, pay day devs, and machine games) create games for pc and then port them to consoles. Nothing hugely concerning with that approach but I play on consoles so experience isn't always fully optimal.
 

Insaniac

Member
Jul 27, 2018
83
I checked out the raid with a few friends for about 10 minutes and immediately was not having fun. The AI just pops up for 2 seconds and then moves around constantly. I was using a Rifle and barely got any shots off
 

zakatana

Member
Jan 10, 2018
4,637
Tokyo
Give ps4 players gyro aiming, it would be a nice benchmark of its superiority over stick aiming in that context.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,349
It's probably still true, but it's more that the only people who have beaten it are the elite of the elite, and those all play on PC. Marco made a joke earlier about if they send his raid group 8 consoles they'll beat it on console.
Makes sense. Wonder if they'll keep tuning all content for parity though.
Give ps4 players gyro aiming, it would be a nice benchmark of its superiority over stick aiming in that context.
THAT would be awesome. I feel like more shooters should just be doing this wherever possible tbh.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,074
Minnesota
Isn't the strategy to use the .50 cal specs? Probably has a lot to do with it with the amount of aiming needed.

I think this happened in one of the Destiny 2: Forsaken raids also, none of the console players beat it in the first day.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,574
What's the recoil like on PC compared to console? Is it like Destiny where guns kick like a mule on controller but are lasers with a mouse?
Isn't the strategy to use the .50 cal specs? Probably has a lot to do with it with the amount of aiming needed.

I think this happened in one of the Destiny 2: Forsaken raids also, none of the console players beat it in the first day.
That was mainly due to players failing to anticipate the power requirements. Only two teams - 12 players - beat it within 24hrs, with the third place famously coming in at 24hrs and 2mins. 2402 is now a meme in Datto's community cos of that. There were a fair proportion of console teams that beat it before the first weekly reset at least.
 

APOEERA

Member
Oct 26, 2017
747
At some point, Ubisoft will have to rebalance the raid and make it easier for PS4/XB1 players to complete. It's almost inexcusable to release a raid that people no matter how coordinated can't complete.

Which reminds me, I still need to play through/Platinum The Division 2.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,431
THAT would be awesome. I feel like more shooters should just be doing this wherever possible tbh.
With the aversion to motion controls people have, even completely optional ones that are flat out superior to regular controls, we probably won't see this happen outside of the occasional shooter on the Switch
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,574
Is the recoil different in both Destiny 2s? I figure people just have way better control over the recoil with the higher accuracy and DPI of a mouse.
No, the recoil is actually worse on a controller. And you're right, a mouse makes it easier to control recoil - which is why there's slightly less recoil on the console versions of R6S, for example.
Splatoon remains the true hardcore Console shooter.
This is the correct take.
 

Nimurai

Member
Oct 28, 2017
554
People not beating a RAID within 24 hours is news? Some raids in wow didn't get beaten for months. Part of the experience is trying for a few weeks before you beat it, why even do it if you have it on farm status within a few days? Then ppl complain about a lack of content...
And obviously a m/kb will be superior for aiming, and i say that as mainly a console player nowadays.
 

Squishy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
745
People not beating a RAID within 24 hours is news? Some raids in wow didn't get beaten for months. Part of the experience is trying for a few weeks before you beat it, why even do it if you have it on farm status within a few days? Then ppl complain about a lack of content...
And obviously a m/kb will be superior for aiming, and i say that as mainly a console player nowadays.
I think the thing is in this case the first boss' mechanics are specifically tuned where the m/kb advantage is massive compared to controller turning, since you can just flick the mouse around while a controller has to make the full range of movement everytime. If you read the article, they spent around 2 hours on the bosses before the final boss, with most of the time spent on the final boss.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
What's the recoil like on PC compared to console? Is it like Destiny where guns kick like a mule on controller but are lasers with a mouse?
Destiny is an annomaly in this regard. The way bungie talked about recoil on M/Kb vs controller makes no sense. They made it sound as if its easier on a controller. Since 3d games have existed and were then ported on any kind of console, the first thing i always noticed was the complete removal of recoil on consoles, especially in older titles. Since Quake 2, all the way to literally every fps ever. Dont really know what bungie was on with that
 

Joco

Member
Oct 29, 2017
560
Having played the game first on PC, then on PS4 because of my trophy whoring ways, the difference was incredibly jarring. I'd imagine the combination of straight up better performance, better controls, and probably better communication on the PC platform all play a role.
 

packy17

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,995
Having played the game first on PC, then on PS4 because of my trophy whoring ways, the difference was incredibly jarring. I'd imagine the combination of straight up better performance, better controls, and probably better communication on the PC platform all play a role.
It's just the better controls. Consoles need to start allowing KB/M at the system level.
 
Feb 1, 2018
1,708
Europe
Hardcore raids are a waste of time on consoles, most console player do not want shit like this. On PC, things are different. I wouldn't even think of doing any raids outside of my PC. I use my X1X for more fun, casual gaming.
 

CorrisD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
374
People not beating a RAID within 24 hours is news? Some raids in wow didn't get beaten for months. Part of the experience is trying for a few weeks before you beat it, why even do it if you have it on farm status within a few days? Then ppl complain about a lack of content...
And obviously a m/kb will be superior for aiming, and i say that as mainly a console player nowadays.
I play on console but content should generally take the same time to beat regardless of platform. Reading up on it the general consensus seems to be that it is purely a control problem and not a difficulty one due to the advantage of mouse and keyboard compared to a controller, and that the new content obviously wasn’t play tested on console due to these issues.

It’s been over a day and coming up to 2, the first guys did it in 5-6 hours on PC, the mechanics on how to beat the raid is general knowledge now. I believe a team has gotten it down to 30 minutes on PC, while on console not a single group on Xbox or PlayStation has gotten close to getting past the final boss.

So yes, new content taking time is fine, but the content seemingly is much harder on console.

You also have to consider the way loot works in the game compared to say Wow or other MMOs. You can spend weeks playing this and not be guaranteed loot that is useful or a good roll on gear, players are already at “max” gear going in, there’s no real promise of better stuff from the raid. You can’t farm the first part and slowly become more powerful to help take on the next bit because you have no idea what you will get out of it.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,879
What's the recoil like on PC compared to console? Is it like Destiny where guns kick like a mule on controller but are lasers with a mouse?

That was mainly due to players failing to anticipate the power requirements. Only two teams - 12 players - beat it within 24hrs, with the third place famously coming in at 24hrs and 2mins. 2402 is now a meme in Datto's community cos of that. There were a fair proportion of console teams that beat it before the first weekly reset at least.
The puzzles were too difficult to figure out in real time.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
If they had gyro assist or any gyro options and sliders to help them aim fast it would be beat. Wasted gyro capability that only Switch Players get companies like Epic Games to utilize. DS4's gyro is awesome on PC.

PS5 should have control setup, customization, and profiles at the firmware level, multiple profiles for each game if the user wants. Steam's profiles are double digit KB at most.
 

PJsprojects

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,392
England
This is also not good for pc players that use a controller.
Maybe they rebalance the raid or maybe a gear build will surface that makes it possible.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,345
Part of the problem is the poor encounter design I think.

Why on earth is there backward stuff like infinitely spawning enemies in there for example?
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
This is also not good for pc players that use a controller.
Maybe they rebalance the raid or maybe a gear build will surface that makes it possible.
PC players that use Xbox controllers. PC players can use Steam Controller or PS4 to use gyro. Steam controller with it's gyro + touch pad track ball simulation feels great when aiming at stuff, almost like a mouse with the added feature of the left WASD mapped analog. Start using gyro assist people.

 
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IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,130
Is there a particular encounter or just badly design and balanced/really high level requirement, it sounds like the latter in the article, but wanna make sure as some Destiny raids (The Dreaming City one especially) have encounters that require precision, timing and teamwork coordination and they got done eventually.
 

CorrisD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
374
Its not harder because they made it harder on console. Its harder because the discrepancy between input options is so gigantic. You simply play much better on m/kb
You quoted my post and edited out where I already said this in the first paragraph, just to say it again?

It’s semantics, you play better with mouse so the game is easier, you play worse with a controller so the game is harder?

Is there a particular encounter or just badly design and balanced/really high level requirement, it sounds like the latter in the article, but wanna make sure as some Destiny raids (The Dreaming City one especially) have encounters that require precision, timing and teamwork coordination and they got done eventually.
The level requirements and gear levels didn’t change, it seems to be bad design on consoles due to the level of accuracy and control the team needs which isn’t possible generally to console players due to their control method.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,894
The raids/incursions in the first game were hard enough, never managed to finish even one with my friends on PS4.

Gawd knows how tough this is then. One of the things I dislike the most is sinking a ton of time into an activity and eventually having to admit defeat, it just irritates me.
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,874
United Kingdom
A raid that only take 5 hours to complete doesn't feel like it would be too hard for console players even with using a pad. Is it not just the case that the hardcore players are on PC in the first place? A 5 hour raid is a bit of a joke tbh.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,868
It was beaten within 5hrs on PC? Definitely something up with the design if there's that much of a discrepancy imo. Difficulty should be based on mechanics and puzzles not input method.
 

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
1,848
Yeah it sucks to aim on console for The Division. The lower framerate isn't helping either. After playing the first game on PS4 and moving to PC for the 2nd its like night and day.

What's the recoil like on PC compared to console? Is it like Destiny where guns kick like a mule on controller but are lasers with a mouse?
Next to non existent with weapon attachments. By far one of the easiest games to snipe in.