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Oct 27, 2017
5,247
Since headshots are such a big deal in TD2 the m/kb is going to make the game "easier".

It's much harder to get headshots on console since the AI likes to run around a lot, and the run fast as well haha.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,217
Seeing people complaining on the reddit page and asking in-house testers to livestream them completing it (would watch this tbh). Pretty wild. Is it actually unbalanced? With Destiny it tends to take a while for optimized strategies to develop.
 
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Defuser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,342
Did Massive seriously did not playtest it on console to see whether they could beat it? What a huge oversight.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,377
Gonna assume a mouse is really the make or break control for something like this, then.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
On top of lying about MM it seems there wasn't much testing done on consoles where the majority of your playerbase is, good job Massive.
 

Rodjer

Self-requested ban.
Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,808
I often feel like swedish devs (DICE, Massive, pay day devs, and machine games) create games for pc and then port them to consoles. Nothing hugely concerning with that approach but I play on consoles so experience isn't always fully optimal.

Well, Sweden is PC-centric and i assume the majority of the developers in Sweden are PC gamers first so it's kinda normal to make games for PC and then port them on consoles, this is what should happen tbh. Same goes to a lot of eastern european developers and some German devs.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Sounds like they didn't dial things down to accommodate controller users. You can't expect controller players to handle the same level of challenge as mouse/kb users.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,992
It would be amazing if this was the catalyst to get widespread support for gyro aiming in PS4 games, but they're probably just going to reduce the difficulty instead.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,568
This is fine, true endgame content is supposed to be tough, and if folks haven't worked it out yet and are blaming the controls, then you have a great raid. People will finish it, give them time... nobody remembers Absolute Virtue?
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,952
It would be amazing if this was the catalyst to get widespread support for gyro aiming in PS4 games, but they're probably just going to reduce the difficulty instead.
Sony would have to make it mandatory for it to take off at this point, which they won't, as their devs barely use the thing either (only Media Molecule have a good track record of the top of my head), despite DS3 and DS4 supporting it.
 

Turkoop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,649
Cologne, GERMANY
We did the first encounter, so few things:

1. It's difficult, yes. But most people don't have a decent Build. GS isn't everything. Every aspect with every armor piece need to chime together.
2. It's a Raid. Of course it needs to be the most difficult challenge.
3. Yeah, It might be more difficult on consoles but then Devs need to optimize something. Like the accuracy of enemies.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The balance between difficulty and genuinely being unfair is a fickle one.

Very hard to do right but it does sound on this occasion if even the best of the best console players can't do it, something might need to be rebalanced. If the 1% are struggling it's a good insight into how your balance might be off.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,624
Not sure why people are talking controls. Some who have tried the raid on PC and Console noted that there are mechanics that tuned weirdly. I think one example given was that the damage phase for Boomer is shorter on console then it is on PC.
 

Kaivan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
This is fine, true endgame content is supposed to be tough, and if folks haven't worked it out yet and are blaming the controls, then you have a great raid. People will finish it, give them time... nobody remembers Absolute Virtue?
Indeed. The way I see it, if a raid is beatable within the first day, then it is not a really good raid. People are supposed to stay in the game for the raids, if they're too easy they'll leave the game sooner.
 

FusedAtoms

Member
Jul 21, 2018
3,591
Splatoon remains the true hardcore Console shooter.
Lmao this meme will never not be funny .

I always felt like my accuracy had to be crazy on point in the division cause the enemies can hit you from anywhere you're not in cover. It feels like they have perfect accuracy most of the time.
 

Deleted member 4072

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
880
30fps shooters are a no go for me these days. Just feels awful to play and harder content is just a straight up chore.
 

stan_marsh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,688
Canada
lol Massive, glad I stopped playing this game. I put 150 hours into it yikes....they know how to get those dopamine hits in.
realized I'm doing the same boring shit over and over for no reason.
rather waste my time exploring a single player open world game or something.

last time I buy a GaaS, not me for me I realized.
 

Deleted member 49804

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 21, 2018
1,868
It's probably still true, but it's more that the only people who have beaten it are the elite of the elite, and those all play on PC. Marco made a joke earlier about if they send his raid group 8 consoles they'll beat it on console.
Marco "I face tank NPCs without a sustain / tank build in a cover shooter " would not beat the raid on console.
 

TheRaidenPT

Editor-in-Chief, Hyped Pixels
Verified
Jun 11, 2018
5,945
Lisbon, Portugal
Makes sense there's lot of people used to raiding in the PC platform due to World of Warcraft and other MMORPGS.

lol Massive, glad I stopped playing this game. I put 150 hours into it yikes....they know how to get those dopamine hits in.
realized I'm doing the same boring shit over and over for no reason.
rather waste my time exploring a single player open world game or something.

last time I buy a GaaS, not me for me I realized.

Yeah I stopped playing immediately after hitting max level, this whole dumb grinding really isn't for me anymore.. I do love to grind in WoW because of reputations and the lore itself and keep unlocking new cutscenes in raids and whatever.

But that's it only capable of doing so in that game.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
lol Massive, glad I stopped playing this game. I put 150 hours into it yikes....they know how to get those dopamine hits in.
realized I'm doing the same boring shit over and over for no reason.
rather waste my time exploring a single player open world game or something.

last time I buy a GaaS, not me for me I realized.

Better late than never. the game sucks, massively missed opportunity and for a sequel too many things that are halfassed.

Won't be buying anything where Massive is involved in the future.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
I'm not that hyped for the raid either way after watching some streams of it.

I'm running around exploring and getting collectibles.

I'm more hyped for excursions/underground and survival to be honest. TD 2 is more of a podcast game for me either way.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
This same thing happened when The Last Wish came out and people kept saying how it's "impossible for them to see this being played with a controller" , "shooting Riven's eyes requires pin point accuracy" - how "the time window is so quick that you have to quickly be able to turn" etc etc. Until people started beating it on consoles too.

It was all bollocks. The real reasons are (and these applied to Destiny too):

1) The raid is difficult atm and only the best of the best have beaten it...and those guys play on PC as they did with Destiny.
2) People don't have optimal builds and strata yet so are just brute forcing it via skill...which means point number 1 again.


I agree that playing at 60fps and above makes a difference but I do not for a second believe that it makes all the difference between the raid being possible and impossible when playing at 30 with a controller. I personally play Div 2 on PC...with a controller most of the time. Destiny I switch between controller and KB from time to time.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,751
Haven't got the game yet but I wonder how hard the raid is compared to the 1st game's incursions on hardest difficulty? They were no joke, but not impossible either. I finished them with randoms, along with every other activity.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
I do not for a second believe that it makes all the difference between the raid being possible and impossible when playing at 30 with a controller. .

Anything is possible. This just shows the immense discrepancy between a shit tool like a pad and m/kb when gamedesign doesnt take it into account and nerf the game accordingly
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
I often feel like swedish devs (DICE, Massive, pay day devs, and machine games) create games for pc and then port them to consoles. Nothing hugely concerning with that approach but I play on consoles so experience isn't always fully optimal.
They are all studios that exclusively made PC games at the start.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,880
Columbia, SC
Honestly, I think this is a bit premature, let this raid cook a couple of weeks and see if theres some merit to the idea that it may be too difficult by design for console(controller) users.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
Anything is possible. This just shows the immense discrepancy between a shit tool like a pad and m/kb when gamedesign doesnt take it into account and nerf the game accordingly
I mean I heard these same exact arguments for Riven back in September 2018, until people started doing it as clockwork 2 weeks later even on consoles. At the end of the day it was just people not having proper builds and not being used to the mechanics than anything else. It's easier to blame the controls than it is to blame the others.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
Destiny 2's Last Wish raid took almost 24 hours to beat and that was on PC. Now I haven't even attempted Division 2's raid, but the fact that a team on PC beat it in 5 hours leads me to believe they just had optimized builds and were probably some of the most hardcore players in the game. A lot of these other players likely just don't have optimized builds for it. I was watching Gothalion give it a go on Thursday and his team couldn't even get past the first boss and they were on PC. People are probably just running in expecting to beat it with a high GS when that's not how Division has ever worked. It's always been about finding a good build.
 
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Nov 14, 2017
4,928
A raid that only take 5 hours to complete doesn't feel like it would be too hard for console players even with using a pad. Is it not just the case that the hardcore players are on PC in the first place? A 5 hour raid is a bit of a joke tbh.
I know a few people on PSN who used to be regular first 100 to clear raids in Destiny who switched to The Division. Point being, there are still plenty of hardcore players on console.
Not sure why people are talking controls. Some who have tried the raid on PC and Console noted that there are mechanics that tuned weirdly. I think one example given was that the damage phase for Boomer is shorter on console then it is on PC.
OK, now that's interesting. Is that a bug? It'd suck if console players are getting screwed over cos of bugs.
Lmao this meme will never not be funny .
It's funny, but also half true. It's crazy how Splatoon so totally convinced me about gyro aiming. I'd tried it in other games with a Steam controller, or even DS4 using Steam controller config, and it was OK but also whatever. Splatoon really did it though.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
Destiny 2's Last Wish raid took almost 24 hours to beat and that was on PC. Now I haven't even attempted Division 2's raid, but the fact that a team on PC beat it in 5 hours leads me to believe they just had optimized builds and were some of the most hardcore players in the game. A lot of these other players likely just don't have optimized builds for it. People are probably just running in expecting to beat it with a high GS when that's not how Division has ever worked. It's always been about finding a good build.
The world's first team was the only team that managed to get to last encounter so fast. They got to last encounter within 1.5 hours.

Meanwhile Gladd spent 10 hours on Buddy and Lucy.

This just proves that it all comes down to gear and then strats. Rather than pure skills and aiming because Gladd and his team are some of the best in the world with multiple world's first in Destiny.
 

Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
Ugh, I don't wanna know the elitism coming out of certain pc gamers right now.
Consoles players deserve the scorn when they refuse to move from a 22 years old controller setup designed for third person plataformers. Yes, I'm still salty about the scorn the wiimote received.
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
I know a few people on PSN who used to be regular first 100 to clear raids in Destiny who switched to The Division. Point being, there are still plenty of hardcore players on console.
And those guys will finish it then. But the people who used to do world's first (not first 100 but first) in Destiny now play the game on PC. And do the world's first there...until someone else does it on console eventually.
 

Grimmjow

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,543
Can we get FOV slider on console pls? I just got the game but dudes spawn next to or behind me and next thing I know I'm getting flanked by a melee enemy.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
How many teams have beaten it on PC so far? Any data on that? If others are still having problems even on PC then the problem is obviously the difficulty itself not the platform.

I do not think there was any team that were even close to being as fast as the world's first team (as I said Redeem spent 10 hours on the penultimate fight while world's first went to last fight in 1.5 hours). So the raid isn't actually "just 5 hours long". It just happens to be that one team managed to do it while everyone else was still stuck.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
So is the issue as simple as mouse and keyboard being more accurate and faster and it making enough of a difference that it turns unebatable on consoles? Or is it simply the better players are on pc?
 

IvorB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,995
I feel like the nerfing of this raid is all but inevitable even regardless of any perceived controller issues.

We are all too busy having breakdowns over our request for Steam to have actual competition resulting in Steam having actual competition. Lol it's worse than console warz

Why you gotta bring this in here, man?