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[Kotaku] Console Players Can’t Beat The Division 2’s Raid

Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Tbm24 said:
I used to hardcore raid WoW in TBC days. The idea that this warranted an article is a bit sad? It's 24 hours.
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The thing with MMORPG raids is they are totally different from ARPG or gunPG raids. There's no healers/support, tanks, and DD system. There's adds, and a big hp boss, but non of the many abilities, and spells of a MMORPG. It's more complex and the MMORPG raids usually add in crazy mechanics to fights. I never played WOW, and only watched Kripparian mess with stuff for a while when trying to do some hard version of a raid, it's not comparable I think.

I played Final Fantasy XIV, which I think mimic's WOW's gameplay style more closely to anything else I've played. I really disliked it's raids and boss battles. Felt like musical chairs with it's danger zones, having to move around to dodge said danger so much, and the combat felt like Simon Says with it's skill rotations, and the global cooldown system encouraging constant use of abilities.

Wow raid fight


FFXIV raid fight
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,624
Ametroid said:
Well Microsoft and Sony officially license a product like this and they don't do anything about it so they're fine with it you should be too. Besides Mouse on console been on the rise for years now it's just getting more and more popular especially in Comp modes the high ranks are mostly Mouse users. If you think this is unfair then you should look up scripts that can be also used on controller those I think are not officially allowed but can do many things that can give you an unfair advantage

Tbh best thing Sony and Microsoft can do is pushing official M+K support and much more so next gen
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Sorry, but it's still bullshit and ruins the fun for everyone else. It was and still is a big issue in the Siege community as it puts controller users at a disadvantage because someone is willing to spend more money to get an advantage. It's bullshit.

Also just because people use equally bullshit scripting stuff, doesn't make people using Mouse and Keyboards for the sole purpose of getting an advantage any better. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If they continue to allow this then they need to separate Controller and M&K users on consoles. It that means M&K users barely have anyone to play against? Well that's their choice. Don't ruin everyone else's fun cause they paid more.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Ploid 6.0 said:
The thing with MMORPG raids is they are totally different from ARPG or gunPG raids. There's no healers/support, tanks, and DD system. There's adds, and a big hp boss, but non of the many abilities, and spells of a MMORPG. It's more complex and the MMORPG raids usually add in crazy mechanics to fights. I never played WOW, and only watched Kripparian mess with stuff for a while when trying to do some hard version of a raid, it's not comparable I think.

I played Final Fantasy XIV, which I think mimic's WOW's gameplay style more closely to anything else I've played. I really disliked it's raids and boss battles. Felt like musical chairs with it's danger zones, having to move around to dodge said danger so much, and the combat felt like Simon Says with it's skill rotations, and the global cooldown system encouraging constant use of abilities.
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fascinating to compare this to a Destiny 2 raid boss kill.



visually it's just so much more interesting, to say nothing of the music.
 
ApeEscaper

ApeEscaper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,720
Bangladeshi
Kalentan said:
Sorry, but it's still bullshit and ruins the fun for everyone else. It was and still is a big issue in the Siege community as it puts controller users at a disadvantage because someone is willing to spend more money to get an advantage. It's bullshit.

Also just because people use equally bullshit scripting stuff, doesn't make people using Mouse and Keyboards for the sole purpose of getting an advantage any better. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If they continue to allow this then they need to separate Controller and M&K users on consoles. It that means M&K users barely have anyone to play against? Well that's their choice. Don't ruin everyone else's fun cause they paid more.
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Not our fault they don't support M+K natively freely for everyone so people will continue using Mouse adapters which again which Sony MS also license to use Mouse adapters on consoles so it's cool with them. If you don't like it then tough it won't stop
 
Cajun

Cajun

Member
Oct 28, 2017
501
It's kinda weird that people think this is related to some skill gap due to control input. There's undoubtedly other factors at play here (i.e. most of the hardcore players could be on pc in the first place). I don't care how difficult a piece of co-op content is, if it's possible on pc, it's possible on console in similar time. It's a shooter, so it's not like it's overly complicated.
 
TheYanger

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,139
Dreams-Visions said:
fascinating to compare this to a Destiny 2 raid boss kill.



visually it's just so much more interesting, to say nothing of the music.
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Yet destiny raiding is literally baby mode in comparison. Idk that I'd say visually more interesting, there are some crazy looking fights in ff and wow, it's more that the game itself uses vastly different visuals to begin with.

Any time these comparisons come up it's silly, the expectations are different with a loot shooter raid, it's never going to be even a fraction as complex as a legitimately hard ff or wow boss, and frankly the playerbase overlap is such that PC players of Destiny and Division are often at least intermingled with a raiding community from those other games that has the sophistocation of decades of this kind of problem solving.
 
Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Phantom88 said:
That would be a downgrade. Contrary to popular belief, wsad is better than an analogue. Because its used together with a mouse and you use the mouse for granular adjustments. So you have that, plus the instant reaction due to the binary nature of the keyboard and having three fingers at all times on the moving input. 1-0 is a huge benefit as well and all the surounding keys.
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I like analog + mouse myself. I also use it all the time with gyro + touch pad with haptics simulating a spinning track ball.
vOiTXZC.jpg


The track ball simulation (with highly customizable sensitivity, angle to adjust the comfort of your thumbs natural horizontal curve, and friction) + gyro isn't as good as a mouse, but for me it's darn close. The gyro feels so natural to me, I explain as pointing a pencil at a board, or a laser pointer. When you have the laser pointer you aren't aiming down the shaft (a actual laser pointer, not gun attachment), so you make adjustments with the motor skills you developed since you were a baby. I can go from wasd on keyboard to the steam controller's analog seamlessly (as in trying them during gameplay without pause to change). I just feel like I'm tripping over the buttons. For example, I don't tap "as" if I want to go diagonal back to the left, I would either hold a or s for a bit too long before hitting the other button to activate the diagonal.

To me wasd just doesn't feel as good as left analog for movement. I don't doubt that people are better with it just like the fighting stick vs a hit box (being able to go from A to D instantly vs rocking the fight stick from left click to right click. Two fingers plink, vs wrist + fingers rock). Playing the rogue like bullet hell shmup Survive By felt a lot better with analog than WASD for me as well.
 
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nasirum

nasirum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,833
Somewhere
TheYanger said:
Yet destiny raiding is literally baby mode in comparison. Idk that I'd say visually more interesting, there are some crazy looking fights in ff and wow, it's more that the game itself uses vastly different visuals to begin with.

Any time these comparisons come up it's silly, the expectations are different with a loot shooter raid, it's never going to be even a fraction as complex as a legitimately hard ff or wow boss, and frankly the playerbase overlap is such that PC players of Destiny and Division are often at least intermingled with a raiding community from those other games that has the sophistocation of decades of this kind of problem solving.
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LOL Destiny raids "baby mode" compared to WoW?

Nah. No way in a thousand years lol.
 
BubblegumNemesis

BubblegumNemesis

Member
Feb 1, 2018
5,240
Europe
TsuWave said:
This is kind of a ridiculous claim. I mean, the Destiny franchise, which pretty much fathered The Division, established itself on consoles and it was substantially popular due to its raids.
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I would argue that Destiny killed itself due to its raids on consoles. When you exclude 85% of your player base, you shouldn't be on console. Looks like the division is just as stupid.

Division 1 was fun without this elitist raid nonsense. Keep hardcore raiding away from consoles.
 
BubblegumNemesis

BubblegumNemesis

Member
Feb 1, 2018
5,240
Europe
TsuWave said:
This is kind of a ridiculous claim. I mean, the Destiny franchise, which pretty much fathered The Division, established itself on consoles and it was substantially popular due to its raids.
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I would argue that Destiny killed itself due to its raids on consoles. When you exclude 85% of your player base, you shouldn't be on console. Looks like the division is just as stupid.

Division 1 was fun without this elitist raid nonsense. Keep hardcore raiding away from consoles.
 
ReginaldXIV

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,782
Minnesota
Ametroid said:
Not our fault they don't support M+K natively freely for everyone so people will continue using Mouse adapters which again which Sony MS also license to use Mouse adapters on consoles so it's cool with them. If you don't like it then tough it won't stop
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The PS4 and XB1 have native kb/m support. They have USB inputs after all. It's on the devs to support it.

nasirum said:
LOL Destiny raids "baby mode" compared to WoW?

Nah. No way in a thousand years lol.
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The hardest Destiny raid isn't that hard if we're equalizing all MMO raids that ever were. But really, shlooter raids require different skill sets than MMORPGs and they're still figuring out how to make them mechanically interesting while MMORPGs have had over 20 years to figure it out.
 
abellwillring

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,916
Austin, TX
It was pretty clear in watching the first team beat it live that there was no way a team would be able to beat it on consoles in its existing state. Aiming with a mouse is so much easier -- you just can't replicate it with a controller. The team who beat it just narrowly did it and that was with effectively every shot being a headshot. The margin for error is very slim.
 
OutofMana

OutofMana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,071
California
Well maybe that's because a lot of people haven't been able to try it? I know I haven't because of the 8 player non matchmaking requirement. Plus mouse and keyboard is far more accurate so maybe that's the true reason.
 
TheMan

TheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,264
Sounds like they may have to lighten things up a bit for us console plebes. While they're at it, maybe they add an extra rebalance option to allow for matchmaking? Yes I'm bitter.
 
Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Collateral said:
60fps makes it feel like a completely different game.
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And better yet 100fps + blew my mind when Nvidia allowed freesync. I don't know if Division allow for more than 60fps though, but it became clear to me how pro players on twitch was so darn accurate. There is more to reactions and input devices that contribute to the skills to play well in game, and it's not called hand eye coordination for nothing.
 
nasirum

nasirum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,833
Somewhere
headspawn said:
Seems to be a lot of players that think Ubi maybe have spiked difficulty across the board actually.

https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/bq4ypp/massive_you_seem_to_have_undone_a_lot_of_the/
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I think they oopsied the AI in the patch.

The AI acts much stranger now in normal Challenging missions, and they're back to rushing the shit out of you.

I would be okay with Massive making the "normal" difficulty raid easier, and then letting the hardcore have a Challenging raid with more rewards.
 
TsuWave

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
BubblegumNemesis said:
I would argue that Destiny killed itself due to its raids on consoles. When you exclude 85% of your player base, you shouldn't be on console. Looks like the division is just as stupid.

Division 1 was fun without this elitist raid nonsense. Keep hardcore raiding away from consoles.
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Then your argument would be even more ridiculous than the initial assertion I contested.

Destiny's sequel, Destiny 2, sold and made millions, and it's still going strong with dedicated community of content creators and player base. I know Resetera has a penchant for creative writing but Destiny isn't/wasn't dead, let alone killing itself due to its raids.
 
astro

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
TheYanger said:
Yet destiny raiding is literally baby mode in comparison. Idk that I'd say visually more interesting, there are some crazy looking fights in ff and wow, it's more that the game itself uses vastly different visuals to begin with.

Any time these comparisons come up it's silly, the expectations are different with a loot shooter raid, it's never going to be even a fraction as complex as a legitimately hard ff or wow boss, and frankly the playerbase overlap is such that PC players of Destiny and Division are often at least intermingled with a raiding community from those other games that has the sophistocation of decades of this kind of problem solving.
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It's not "baby mode" at all.

I've raided countless times in the older MMOs, and there is A LOT of structure to it not present in shooter type raiding.

While an MMO mode may have more complex moving parts, your roll is pretty much auto defined when you select your class. The structure of the Holy trinity allows for greater complexity overall BECAUSE of the inherent foundation of understanding your specific roll.

Shooter type raids, generally do not have this. Sometimes you will need a designated class to be in a certain area to use an ability, but you also need to be fully engaging your shooter skills constantly with very little down time, whereas in MMO raids there's more breathing room for each individual (depending on the current pressure on a specific class at any point in the fight)

I actually feel most MMO raids are more relaxing to play despite their complexity.
 
-PXG-

-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
Destiny and WoW comparisons are silly because they're fundamentally and totally different games that involve different skill sets and means of navigation.

Destiny 2's next raid, Crown of Sorrows, drops on June 4th, 4 PM PST/ 7 PM EST. I suggest watching streams to see what a day one Destiny raid is like.
 
Kenzodielocke

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,839
I have this on PC and I play everything but FPS with a controller, this with a gamepad was not enjoyable on PC.
 
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