I don't think she deserved to be fired, but it's worth noting that a man got fired as well.
Kotaku: GW2 writers fired after Twitter argument. GG pressured firing.
- Thread starter Don Fluffles
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Why? Death doesn't erase someone's legacy, but there's a level of common sense etiquette reserved for said scenario unless the person was an unambiguous monster. People were rightfully banned here even for relatively minor negative stuff said about TB.
If you think criticism of your work is being shit to you, no matter how or what they actually say, then just stop making things.
What are reading into what he said that you think we're missing? How do you conclude he's arguing in bad faith?
No, it was like "Hey, I'm left handed because using the right hand is not good" and then he going "Hey, I respect your opinion but your not using your right hand properly, this is how you do it..."
At first i dont understand what this is al about...
But after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q50oy4-UJM i have to say, yes i understand why she must go!
But after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q50oy4-UJM i have to say, yes i understand why she must go!
That's not what happened. What happened was tha yet another dude among many kept explaining basics of her job to her. Which is what mansplaining is.
It is, in fact, possible to talk to people without mansplaining to them. It is odd that many guys in this thread don't seem to even realize that it is possible.
They definitely are. And like many sexist actions, they are caused by unconscious biases. See, you are trying to "prove" that he cannot be sexist, because earlier, he didn't hate her.
But...that's the thing about sexism. Sexism isn't CONSTANT HATRED ALL THE TIME. Many times, sexism is less obvious than all-out inceldom. What happened here was that he tried to explain her basic things that even amateur game devs know don't need explanation. This is 101 stuff you could find in an Extra Credits video. They probably DID do a video on that topic, just deeper than his comment.
That he assumed this would be completely new to her, or eye opening, or even relevant, is literally only a reasonable assumption if he thought he knew more about narrative design than she did, and he thus thought his little opinion was special and insightful enough to add to a person that already is getting a lot of shit.
If somebody is planning roads (for cars, the ones outside), and I go up to them to explain that they should try to make a straight road, because that's easier to drive in, and would be much more convenient than all those curves, guess what? I'd be an asshat, and I'd be also very stupid, for assuming that the person planning roads doesn't realize that, uhm, straight roads are more convenient to the driver.
Why the hell does or should that matter in an AMA. You either answer the question or you ignore it ,and if you do answer it you do it in a calm professional manner that is at the very least reciprocal to the polite tone that the question was asked. Its called being an adult,and its pretty much how most companies in the UK operate.
Her response wasnt professional , and that showed not only a clear lack of maturity on her part but also a lack of professional awareness as her words reflected badly on the company.What Im saying here isnt anything new its stuff you go through during orientation.
Deroir Tweets
J Price Response
Unfortunate that it ended up this way. It's a good example to go back to for professionals about the dangers of social media and your representation of the company you work for. Could see this making other industry professionals more fearful of engaging with the general public in meaningful discourse though which is a shame.
- Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design; (1 of 3)
- When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC. (2 of 3)
- But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)
- then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End)
J Price Response
- Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job."
- like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA.
Unfortunate that it ended up this way. It's a good example to go back to for professionals about the dangers of social media and your representation of the company you work for. Could see this making other industry professionals more fearful of engaging with the general public in meaningful discourse though which is a shame.
Again, I repeat myself, but I simply refuse to believe that some of these caricatures aren't stooge accounts to shit up discourse.
If that's what you take away from this thread. Then who cares who is progressive or otherwise. Its just a bunch of opinions that don't matter, from randos at work or at home. Half of the people saying anything here could be shitty people and their comments don't reflect their acutal life actions. Its all relative.
What closet do you work in where you've never had to tell off a shitty customer?
Which proves that ANet vastly overreacted, but instead people are looking for every justification to clear their name.
He was fired for defending her which indicates that ArenaNet considered the situation so radioactive and was so terrified of their toxic fanbase that they nuked anyone involved in the controversy to appease them.
The fact that it's common does not make it acceptable. The fact that the US has the labor law protections of a third world country is a travesty.
I dont even know the devs or the game, but it was unprofessional to talk like that.
And what about the stream where he praised her dearly the day before she even made the initial tweet? Do you think he planned that or something?
i don't really care about going after the guy since it's really the anet guy who's the villain in this story. in a different world i'd be saying jessica overreacted to him after too many years of harassment giving her a hair trigger. that doesn't change the fact that a good person would recognize it's not really proportionate for two people to get fired over this and at least say something to that effect.
Sure, but for some people, that legacy overwrites the etiquette. Regardless of his positive legacy, he also had a history of tying himself to shitty things, and we shouldn't expect people to uniformly respect the grieving period in a public place where there isn't any specific rules demanding that period be respected.
I don't think it was as much they were getting banned for saying it as much as they were saying it after the staff requested that people hold their criticisms for a later date.
Price felt that her reaction was justified, so that says everything about the type of shit she puts up with.
Cherrypicking the systemic in systemic prejudice is not going to help anyone in this situation.
She said I’m not sure you can have good charecter development in an MMO and then he replied saying that it wasn’t an issue of MMO’s but of the living worlds which MMO’s exist in.
She said herself she wasn’t sure so it seems like if someone doesn’t know, any extra input would be beneficial. Especially in an MMO where there’s a close relationship between players and devs.
One thing to note is that apparently, she was doing an AMA (on reddit presumably) and so Deroir made the comment on Twitter subsequent to that (again, presumably) to have a discussion out of that AMA chain and subsequent to it. To state that she was "targeted" and "because she was a woman" whilst constantly patronizing members asking for direct proof is ignorant and malicious.
LOL
I Seriously cant believe we have a defence force going after the guy that literally did no wrong, praised the woman that started this issue a day prior and loves the game he plays. Stay classy Era.
That wasn't criticism, it was stating basic dev knowledge to her, she would absolutely have already known about. But it's nice to think that your answer to a woman complaining about "polite" sexism, was just stop being in the industry. I'll also point out I never said he was bein g sexist deliberately, but he was acting like he knew more than her about her own job.
The fact people are blaming this guy is insane. Also, why the hell would he tell people not to fire her? He clearly wants to back away from the issue and whats nothing more to do with it. She replied to his comment and he said sorry and backed away. Everything is her fault, don't go blame the poor dude for her inability to act properly.
Just to reiterate, other media companies have better disciplinary policies than this. ESPN will temporarily suspend an employee without pay and revoke social media access for that duration if they act out of line online. But they don't fire them, unless they do something extremely heinous.
ANet overreacted, there's no debate about it. When you fire and not even slap the wrist of a coworker just stepping up to defend their colleague but FIRE them, you overreacted. Period.
ANet overreacted, there's no debate about it. When you fire and not even slap the wrist of a coworker just stepping up to defend their colleague but FIRE them, you overreacted. Period.
Yo, I fucking hate how dude has to reiterate that's he's a feminist over this shit. Like, there are seriously people out there whose main takeaway from that entire twitter convo is "hey, that guy probably hates women". And the sad thing is, that slowly but surely, ERA's starting to represent exactly those kind of people to me.
As far as I'm aware going @ at someone on Twitter is not an AMA. Neither a personal Twitter account is in any capacity obligated to act as one 24/7
How many doctors, pilots, teachers, cashiers, and waiters do you know that routinely receive death threats on the internet from their "fans" for such crimes as being female while working. This is false equivalency.
Can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question.
I’m currently working on getting a degree in theme park management. I’m sure when I’m working at Disney World if a guest comes to me to complain, calling them an asshat and walking away would get me fired immediately. You can’t work with customers and mock them to their face. That’s unnaceptable in any workplace with customer interaction.
Yeah no, that is a reason to be fired. My job or my wife’s job, we would be fired if we behaved like that. You bring up Kamiya, Jaffe... who is going to fire Kamiya? Himself? Same with Jaffe. They are also heads and personalities and unless one of them goes on a racist tirade, they won’t get fired.
I’m sure my boss could pull a stunt like that and not get fired. I would however.
And honestly, if I ran a company and I had an employee who behaved how many people do on Twitter, I would tell them they need to make their profiles private or stop behaving in such a way. If they did it again, I wouldn’t want them working for me anymore.
Out of interest could you re-write his tweets in that it is still presented as a minor disagreement to what was presented while adding his thoughts on the matter without it being mansplaining, or is the disagreement here inherently a case of mansplaining and he shouldn't have written a thing?
So you don't actually have workplace experience to compare this to.
Alright.
There wasn’t even a question in the comment I was replying to. What are you even talking about.
Doctors and nurses get called all manner of shit all the time. And actual, real-world, violence against doctors and nurses is a HUGE problem. I have first hand knowledge as well, I work in a hospital.
I imagine cashiers and waiters have to put up with a lot too.
Perhaps people who thinks Price deserve a to be fired should reconsider which company they are in when they are holding the same position as Gamergaters.
Maybe, just maybe, there is something wrong with such a position and it would be good to reevaluate your view on things if you find the people among you to be misogynist conspiracy nut jobs.
Maybe, just maybe, there is something wrong with such a position and it would be good to reevaluate your view on things if you find the people among you to be misogynist conspiracy nut jobs.
It's common because it's fucking logical sense.
Just because it's a personal twitter account doesn't mean you can say anything. What if an employee said they don't like GW2 and tells people go play WoW or FF14 or other competitor's products instead?
You think that's acceptable with no repercussions??
Pretty sure in any job, you call a customer an asshat after they politely say something would at least get you a talking to. In most jobs, when dealing with a tough customer you should be firm and clear but never insult them, even if they are asshats. You leave the shit talking for your break when you vent with your co-workers.
So literally because he is a man and he disagreed with a woman he is mansplaining.
Branching paths in an MMO is not the "basics of her job", it's actually a rather complicated and difficult thing to implement, which is why she first aired her grievances and why he offered his feedback.
Considering that a benign as fuck, unconfrontational, minor criticism is "mansplaining", and clearly so because he is a man and she a woman, I don't think, in this wacky definition, that is possible at all.
"How was what he said sexist?"
"SEXISM EXISTS, DUH"
"Okay, I never disagreed with that, I'm just wondering how what he said is targeted towards her gender in any way."
"LOOK UNCONSCIOUS BIASES EXIST"
"That's not answering my question."
Okay, one, a word exists for that, condescending, two, I fail to see any gendered intent to that whatsoever, unless you believe that literally only men ever do such a thing to only women developers, three, again, it's not basic, he wasn't even "explaining" anything, he was offering a solution to an issue she was talking about.
Again, can no one who is not already an Oscar winning, GotY, multi-million dollar unconditionally praised creator ever criticize anything ever?
Price can get away with airing her little opinions though, because I guess she actually is special and insightful?
Most of them don't care about what company they keep, so long as they get to yell at a woman.
I’m currently working at a hardware store right now. I have customers come in every single day thinking they know what they’re talking about when they don’t. You know what I do? Smile and help them have the best possible shopping experience. It’s called not being a cunt.
If you tell off a shitty customer at a corporate job, you are probably done for if that person complains at all. Really simple. Implying somebody lacks life experience because you've somehow gotten away with insulting customers up until this point is absurd.
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