Kotaku: "Valve's Card Game Artifact Is Running Out Of Players"

[Pixieking]

Also Garfield leaving the dev team is a good thing. So many of his design philosophies are terrible. "RNG is good because it helps new players" like seriously?

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Yeah, he does love him some RNG.

Which, btw, in Artifact fucking suuuuuuuuuuucks.

I get what he means. I do. I just don't think his departure at the current time, and the following actions (or lack thereof) from Valve inspire very much confidence in the game, it's future, and their overall plans. I don't think Garfield needed to stay on indefinitely, but he should've at the very least stayed on to try to weather the storm, and him being laid off is a bad look.

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Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I think the issue is that we'd need a post-mortem with a lot of behind-the-scenes info to really answer which of us is more... not "right", but... Accurate? I guess? :) It may be he's consulting on a 4th expansion pack for free right now, after having set-up the first 3 before leaving. It may be that Valve are entirely reworking whatever expansions they already made because the feedback about RNG has been so atrocious. I think the lack of communication is what hurts the most - even a statement from Valve saying they enjoyed working with Garfield and Artifact news is coming soon would've helped a tremendous amount. As it is "In it for the long haul" is the new "These things, they take time". :/

 

[TSM]

This is the most Valve thing ever. Just complete radio silence as things continue to move internally on Valve Time.

 

[Shroki]

Also Garfield leaving the dev team is a good thing. So many of his design philosophies are terrible. "RNG is good because it helps new players" like seriously?

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There is a compelling pro-RNG argument to be made, but it's better made in Hearthstone than it is Artifact for sure.

 

[Wulfric]

This is the most Valve thing ever. Just complete radio silence as things continue to move internally on Valve Time.

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Really, this is not the genre to be acting like his.

Wizards of the Coast, and even Hearthstone are pretty good at letting players know what's coming up next.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

They announced Valor's Reach, which is essentially a proper HearthStone clone for mobile, but featuring Magic: the Gathering characters and spells (albeit with a new, slick visual aesthetic). It's launching in Nordic regions first in a few weeks, and then expanding to other territories.

https://www.droidgamers.com/2019/03/25/valors-reach-android/

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Oh yeah, that. I thought you were talking about a completely new IP card game or something LOL.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

They announced Valor's Reach, which is essentially a proper HearthStone clone for mobile, but featuring Magic: the Gathering characters and spells (albeit with a new, slick visual aesthetic). It's launching in Nordic regions first in a few weeks, and then expanding to other territories.

https://www.droidgamers.com/2019/03/25/valors-reach-android/

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Valor's Reach looks suspiciously similar to Eternal.

 

[fanboi]

Inc. F2P model and payback to people paid for it?

 

[Tim]

I get what he means. I do. I just don't think his departure at the current time, and the following actions (or lack thereof) from Valve inspire very much confidence in the game, it's future, and their overall plans. I don't think Garfield needed to stay on indefinitely, but he should've at the very least stayed on to try to weather the storm, and him being laid off is a bad look.

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Artifact shipped with a very clear set of design philosophies which Valve was obviously very committed to pre-release. There wasn't going to be any progression. There wasn't going to be a laddar. There wasn't going to be balance changes. Valve was very clear about all of this pre-release. It doesn't matter if you agree with those ideas or not, they had a vision. With the exception of chat getting delayed until post release, everything about the game was deliberate.

And then Valve realized these design philosophies were wrong... like immediately. They announced plans to add a progression system right after launch. Balance changes came two weeks later. They talked about a change in mindset with how they approached development. Whatever post-launch plans were on the table went out the window. But to really tackle these issues required more work than a series of weekly patches.

The fact that Garfield was let go right after this shift happened should tell you all you need to know about where these ideas came from. Yes, Valve *should* have realized there were flaws pre-launch, but they didn't and here we are. The "Valve is already abandoning the game" takes are ridiculous. At the very least they are going to try see if the new vision is going to work.

"I dislike making our customers mad, but that is usually fixable with time and work." -Gaben, like a week ago.

 

[TheYanger]

Artifact shipped with a very clear set of design philosophies which Valve was obviously very committed to pre-release. There wasn't going to be any progression. There wasn't going to be a laddar. There wasn't going to be balance changes. Valve was very clear about all of this pre-release. It doesn't matter if you agree with those ideas or not, they had a vision. With the exception of chat getting delayed until post release, everything about the game was deliberate.

And then Valve realized these design philosophies were wrong... like immediately. They announced plans to add a progression system right after launch. Balance changes came two weeks later. They talked about a change in mindset with how they approached development. Whatever post-launch plans were on the table went out the window. But to really tackle these issues required more work than a series of weekly patches.

The fact that Garfield was let go right after this shift happened should tell you all you need to know about where these ideas came from. Yes, Valve *should* have realized there were flaws pre-launch, but they didn't and here we are. The "Valve is already abandoning the game" takes are ridiculous. At the very least they are going to try see if the new vision is going to work.

"I dislike making our customers mad, but that is usually fixable with time and work." -Gaben, like a week ago.

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That doesn't tell you anything whatsoever. Garfield is more than happy to let the publishers work out the logistics of things as minute as 'progression' or payment plans. Go watch interviews with the man, he has no interest in dictating the business model of games. Even Keyforge, a game where it's wholly part of the design, he approached FFG and they still were the ones that let him know that their technology would let them do certain things with printing that they could design around.

Anyone trying to spin Richard Garfield being let go as "Oh it's normal" or "He's the one that forced them to do X Y or Z with the game" is talking completely out of their ass. Yes, it's normal to leave a project once his contract is up, but 'let go' is not the way that sounds. That's the same as being fired. Garfield was in charge of designing the gameplay aspects of the game, but he also did it WITH the valve team, not by himself in his house or something. He's not the kind of designer to throw a tantrum over his babies in gaming, he's not a diva. He works on Magic sets pretty much whenever they ask him, for instance, and he absolutely suggests designs that end up almost nothing like his suggestions when they come out - the man respects other people's design input and decisions and is humble about where he stands logistically in these companies.

It is NOT a good thing to be letting go of one of the most prolific card game designers alive, period.

 

[toastyToast]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Artifact/

Cringe reaction gifs pls

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Did everyone that still plays artifact make a thread? Holy shit

I guess they ran out of shit posts. RIP r/artifact 2018-2019

 

[Deleted member 16849]

If Valve has given up on this game (which it looks like they have) then why the fuck would i bother purchasing any of their future multiplayer titles if this is the way they are going to treat their product and the players?

 

[Ricelord]

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Oof.

 

[Pixieking]

That doesn't tell you anything whatsoever. Garfield is more than happy to let the publishers work out the logistics of things as minute as 'progression' or payment plans. Go watch interviews with the man, he has no interest in dictating the business model of games. Even Keyforge, a game where it's wholly part of the design, he approached FFG and they still were the ones that let him know that their technology would let them do certain things with printing that they could design around.

Anyone trying to spin Richard Garfield being let go as "Oh it's normal" or "He's the one that forced them to do X Y or Z with the game" is talking completely out of their ass. Yes, it's normal to leave a project once his contract is up, but 'let go' is not the way that sounds. That's the same as being fired. Garfield was in charge of designing the gameplay aspects of the game, but he also did it WITH the valve team, not by himself in his house or something. He's not the kind of designer to throw a tantrum over his babies in gaming, he's not a diva. He works on Magic sets pretty much whenever they ask him, for instance, and he absolutely suggests designs that end up almost nothing like his suggestions when they come out - the man respects other people's design input and decisions and is humble about where he stands logistically in these companies.

It is NOT a good thing to be letting go of one of the most prolific card game designers alive, period.

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I dunno.

I mean, we're all talking about this with no information. Maybe Garfield built 4 expansions which are waiting to be released, and the team he was working with know as much about the game's design as he does? Or maybe not? Trying to spin his being let-go as unequivocally bad without knowing anything is as pointless as trying to spin his being let-go as unequivocally good without knowing anything.

Yes, he's a good designer, but his good design in Artifact is only good up to a point. There's far too much RNG in the game - creep placements, arrows and item shop - to say all his ideas for Artifact are amazing. And if he's not to blame for the RNG, then he should've argued against it more strongly from a design point of view, as he was working with people who respected him greatly, from what little we know of behind-the-scenes. And maybe he did? Who knows? :D

Also, we've got to remember that just because Garfield is not currently being paid to work at Valve, does not mean that he cannot in the future be paid to work at Valve. He's gone to-and-from Wizards quite a bit during Magic's existence, right?

 

[Maledict]

Garfield loves bringing other game randomisation mechanics to his CCGs, through randomisation, dice, bluffing etc. Sometimes that results in fantastic things like Netrunner, or clever card designs like Cursed Scroll. And sometimes it fails miserably because he goes too far, such as Wizards ill conceived Star Wars CCG which has dice rolling.

Artifact definitely, definitely cross the line in terms of how random it can be. Someone should have reigned Garfield back on that, but judging from the interviews I suspect they were all a bit too star-struck to challenge him.

(Which is a shame, as others have said he's happy to change stuff and take criticism).

 

[Tim]

That doesn't tell you anything whatsoever. Garfield is more than happy to let the publishers work out the logistics of things as minute as 'progression' or payment plans. Go watch interviews with the man, he has no interest in dictating the business model of games. Even Keyforge, a game where it's wholly part of the design, he approached FFG and they still were the ones that let him know that their technology would let them do certain things with printing that they could design around.

Anyone trying to spin Richard Garfield being let go as "Oh it's normal" or "He's the one that forced them to do X Y or Z with the game" is talking completely out of their ass. Yes, it's normal to leave a project once his contract is up, but 'let go' is not the way that sounds. That's the same as being fired. Garfield was in charge of designing the gameplay aspects of the game, but he also did it WITH the valve team, not by himself in his house or something. He's not the kind of designer to throw a tantrum over his babies in gaming, he's not a diva. He works on Magic sets pretty much whenever they ask him, for instance, and he absolutely suggests designs that end up almost nothing like his suggestions when they come out - the man respects other people's design input and decisions and is humble about where he stands logistically in these companies.

It is NOT a good thing to be letting go of one of the most prolific card game designers alive, period.

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Everyone is talking out of their asses. No one knows what happened. No one's opinion and speculation on things we don't know for sure is any more valid than anyone else's.

All of the blame for Artifact rests solely on Valve. They made the final decisions. And I have no doubt Richard Garfield is a humble guy and good team member, otherwise the same companies wouldn't keep working with him over and over. But he can be out of touch. His designs often need restraint. There is a reason most of his games have flopped. There are great games in there, but man A LOT of flops. His negative views on f2p games are understandable, but bizarre when you consider the business model of the genre he created.

Maybe Valve came to these conclusions without him, I dunno. Maybe they were the ones to add all the shitty RNG, I dunno. But if he did have a major hand in any of this, then Valve is better off without him. In fact all of Artifact is just too nostalgic in general. They tried to recreate the LGS experience in digital form and it doesn't work. Valve needs to push the genre forward; they regressed.

e: didn't mean to pile on, the posts above said it better than me.

 

[Toxi]

lol Valve doesn't give a shit what other companies are doing. They never have. They'll release the update when it's ready.

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Any update in the next couple months will be completely drowned out by the competition. If Valve doesn't give a shit, they had better start giving one.

 

[Tim]

I really don't think active HS and Magic players should be Valve's target audience here. Artifact plays completely different and will attract a different type of player. It's part of the reason the monetization was so ill conceived, Artifact could appeal to an audience that is not into traditional card games yet the business side of things looks like a typical card game. And the fact that it "looks" like a more complicated version of them probably doesn't help either. Netrunner benefited from being obviously distinct.

 

[Metallix87]

Valor's Reach looks suspiciously similar to Eternal.

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I don't really know anything about Eternal, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

that subreddit is unfortunate.

 

[Deleted member 5864]

And I thought the Anthem reddit was sad...

 

[Toxi]

I really don't think active HS and Magic players should be Valve's target audience here. Artifact plays completely different and will attract a different type of player. It's part of the reason the monetization was so ill conceived, Artifact could appeal to an audience that is not into traditional card games yet the business side of things looks like a typical card game. And the fact that it "looks" like a more complicated version of them probably doesn't help either. Netrunner benefited from being obviously distinct.

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Artifact's business model was hated because it wasn't like Hearthstone or Magic Arena or Shadowverse though. It had a 20 dollar upfront cost and didn't allow easy grinding for packs.

I also don't really see the target audience you speak of ever being Valve's priority. They're not anywhere near large or lucrative enough to be worth overhauling the game over.

 

[plau]

Since this thread was bumped I might as well add the update that Artifact has reached a new milestone: less than 100 players: https://steamcharts.com/app/583950#48h

 

[Gundam]

Since this thread was bumped I might as well add the update that Artifact has reached a new milestone: less than 100 players: https://steamcharts.com/app/583950#48h

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Oof

 

[Wulfric]

Since this thread was bumped I might as well add the update that Artifact has reached a new milestone: less than 100 players: https://steamcharts.com/app/583950#48h

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That's not a milestone >:(

 

[Nome]

lol Valve doesn't give a shit what other companies are doing. They never have. They'll release the update when it's ready.

Also Garfield leaving the dev team is a good thing. So many of his design philosophies are terrible. "RNG is good because it helps new players" like seriously?

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That's... a standard belief in game design...

 

[Toxi]

Since this thread was bumped I might as well add the update that Artifact has reached a new milestone: less than 100 players: https://steamcharts.com/app/583950#48h

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...So when's that 1 million dollar tournament?

 

[Deleted member 1041]

Any update in the next couple months will be completely drowned out by the competition. If Valve doesn't give a shit, they had better start giving one.

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Right. Valve may have this attitude about not caring of their competition, but they need to in order to succeed. They cant keep thinking that everything they put out will be successful because thats how Artifact happened.

 

[Tim]

Artifact's business model was hated because it wasn't like Hearthstone or Magic Arena or Shadowverse though. It had a 20 dollar upfront cost and didn't allow easy grinding for packs.

I also don't really see the target audience you speak of ever being Valve's priority. They're not anywhere near large or lucrative enough to be worth overhauling the game over.

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Every popular card game has either been designed specifically with casuals in mind or designed in a way so that casuals can still enjoy it at lower skill levels. Artifact's core design will never appeal to a casual audience. At least not with massive changes. It requires complete attention. Matches take too long. There's a lot passivity in the design (not choosing attackers.) Mistakes are too punishing.

From a top level player perspective it's great because it requires skillful piloting to play well. But to casuals it just asks too much. And it's difficult to to have a top level community without the casual market supporting.

So I dunno, I think no matter what this is going to be a niche product. Valve's best bet is to try and appeal to the type of gamer that doesn't play traditional card games. Either because their business models are abrasive or because they can be a bit auto-piloty at times. If all they do is adapt the HS model, then maybe they stabilize at around 2000 concurrent? I guess it depends on how much not being able to grind for packs contributed to the player retention rates.

 

[Deleted member 9100]

There's nothing they can do to change things unless they go F2P. I loved the game as it was and bought a bunch of packs. But clearly i was not the majority.

No matter what changes they make, the game is dead unless it goes F2P.

 

[Metallix87]

Every popular card game has either been designed specifically with casuals in mind or designed in a way so that casuals can still enjoy it at lower skill levels. Artifact's core design will never appeal to a casual audience. At least not with massive changes. It requires complete attention. Matches take too long. There's a lot passivity in the design (not choosing attackers.) Mistakes are too punishing.

From a top level player perspective it's great because it requires skillful piloting to play well. But to casuals it just asks too much. And it's difficult to to have a top level community without the casual market supporting.

So I dunno, I think no matter what this is going to be a niche product. Valve's best bet is to try and appeal to the type of gamer that doesn't play traditional card games. Either because their business models are abrasive or because they can be a bit auto-piloty at times. If all they do is adapt the HS model, then maybe they stabilize at around 2000 concurrent? I guess it depends on how much not being able to grind for packs contributed to the player retention rates.

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This all sounds pretty fucking grim, don't you think? Making a card game for the gamer who doesn't play traditional card games is a losing proposition. There are built-in reasons why games like Magic appeal to some people, and there's room in that market for competition. Making a product for people who typically hate that sort of product is a hard sell, to say the least.

What you've described is a product for a niche within a niche within another niche. Thus, it makes sense why the game is dead now. Valve will never be able to revive it in any meaningful way with what you've suggested, because most of the player base that had any interest in that sort of product has moved on, for one reason or another, and the tanking of the secondary market has essentially made it a toxic investment.

 

[DSP]

There's nothing they can do to change things.

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fixed. I think it's done period.

Overall general interest in card games seems to be a lot lower than when HS peaked a few years ago. Hardcore players have magic, those who don't have HS. There is really not much room. Every other card game is dead or very niche, f2p or not. Maybe if they go f2p it get a short term boost but overall it's never going to be a product that is worthwhile for a company like valve to put major resources into when they could be doing something else, specially now that they are "under attack" on their main business. Artifact is never going to be notable factor for the company ever. you don't go from hundreds of players to a healthy game by going f2p or releasing a patch.

 

[Metallix87]

fixed. I think it's done period.

Overall general interest in card games seems to be a lot lower than when HS peaked a few years ago. Hardcore players have magic, those who don't have HS. There is really not much room. Every other card game is dead or very niche, f2p or not. Maybe if they go f2p it get a short term boost but overall it's never going to be a product that is worthwhile for a company like valve to put major resources into when they could be doing something else, specially now that they are "under attack" on their main business. Artifact is never going to be notable factor for the company ever. you don't go from hundreds of players to a healthy game by going f2p or releasing a patch.

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To be fair, I don't think it's as grim as you're suggesting in the card game market. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! continue to be successful, and to a lesser extent, Force of Will is successful. Pokemon has a digital client with a direct correlation / connection to the physical product, which currently makes it pretty unique, but Magic Arena is dabbling gradually with that concept, which can only help to attract new users. How much room there is is certain up for debate.

That said, Artifact fumbled the ball on multiple fronts, and Valve has failed to try to mend things. It's dead.

 

[DSP]

right, those main stay names in tcg are stable but apparently HS is 50 percent down yoy. That's probably just a large market shrink because nobody else has gained that much, not even magic arena. Artifact being doa was really bad news for card games in general. I thought things were looking up and competition was going to add a lot to this space, but nope it's crashing instead.

 

[Tim]

What you've described is a product for a niche within a niche within another niche. Thus, it makes sense why the game is dead now. Valve will never be able to revive it in any meaningful way with what you've suggested, because most of the player base that had any interest in that sort of product has moved on, for one reason or another, and the tanking of the secondary market has essentially made it a toxic investment.

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Yes, exactly. I say this all as someone who genuinely loves the game. I am *the* market for this game. I bought a complete set and don't regret that at all. But if Valve was expecting a popular game they should have gone with a different design. So now they either accept it as a niche and *really* lean into the hardcore community or they completely remake the game. This design is never going to appeal to a casual audience.

Netrunner found a market despite being a good bit more hardcore, can Valve do the same here after some changes? I don't know. But trying to go after the HS and MTGA crowd is not going top cut it.

 

[SubvertedTrope]

apparently HS is 50 percent down yoy. That's probably just a large market shrink because nobody else has gained that much, not even magic arena.

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Who says its the card game market, maybe its the Hearthstone market that shrunk...

Magic has been doing very well for Hasbro lately, stores reporting above average turnouts and some very well received sets so I dont know where this doomsaying comes from, wishful thinking maybe.

Not HS or magics fault the others arent good enough to keep up, not even HS itself anymore apparently.

 

[Deleted member 2652]

i don't see how they can fix this. you can't go dark this long on a card game and keep the players trust. i don't see them earning that trust again even if they decided to try and fix it this late without saying a single thing.

 

[Tim]

right, those main stay names in tcg are stable but apparently HS is 50 percent down yoy. That's probably just a large market shrink because nobody else has gained that much, not even magic arena. Artifact being doa was really bad news for card games in general. I thought things were looking up and competition was going to add a lot to this space, but nope it's crashing instead.

Click to shrink...

This is where the business model of the genre hurts so much. They are just too damn expensive for players to be jumping between games. I get that if your game takes off it makes stupid money, but it's a winner takes all market. *Another f2p grind fest* isn't going to help Artifact or any game penetrate the market. The whole genre needs a come to jesus moment.

 

[Metallix87]

right, those main stay names in tcg are stable but apparently HS is 50 percent down yoy. That's probably just a large market shrink because nobody else has gained that much, not even magic arena. Artifact being doa was really bad news for card games in general. I thought things were looking up and competition was going to add a lot to this space, but nope it's crashing instead.

Click to shrink...

For what it's worth, HearthStone is in a bit of decline as a lot of the user base has migrated over to Arena. Both games are in a bit of a lull that should end shortly with the release of new sets, plus a major update tomorrow for Arena. I don't think things are crashing at all, I just think Artifact was the wrong product for a group of people that really don't make up a large portion of the market at all.

Yes, exactly. I say this all as someone who genuinely loves the game. I am *the* market for this game. I bought a complete set and don't regret that at all. But if Valve was expecting a popular game they should have gone with a different design. So now they either accept it as a niche and *really* lean into the hardcore community or they completely remake the game. This design is never going to appeal to a casual audience.

Netrunner found a market despite being a good bit more hardcore, can Valve do the same here after some changes? I don't know. But trying to go after the HS and MTGA crowd is not going top cut it.

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Or, alternatively to all of this, they just abandon ship, which seems to be what's happening.

 

[Tim]

Or, alternatively to all of this, they just abandon ship, which seems to be what's happening.

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I still think this is wrong. Like the devs have said they are working on it. Seems weird to straight up lie about that. But I don't know if it will still have support say a year from now.

 

[Maple]

Going F2P with some basic mechanical changes isn't going to change this game's future. It needs a radical overhaul at this point.

The game's stunning lack of players isn't just due to the price - it's due in part to the underlying mechanics, despite how good some elements may be.

I just don't know if anything will ever be enough. It's almost impossible for a game to redeem itself once the gaming community collectively assigns a negative valence to it. No Man's Sky I think is a rare exception. We'll see if Valve can pull it off with Artifact.

 

[Metallix87]

I still think this is wrong. Like the devs have said they are working on it. Seems weird to straight up lie about that. But I don't know if it will still have support say a year from now.

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Devs can say whatever they want. Actions speak louder than words. It's been what... five months since launch now, give or take? At what point are we going to get some reasonable information on the path forward?

 

[Tim]

Devs can say whatever they want. Actions speak louder than words. It's been what... five months since launch now, give or take? At what point are we going to get some reasonable information on the path forward?

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Never. That's not how Valve operates for ANY of their game. Yes it's stupid and infuriating, but this is how they work. And reading too much into silence is not really going to get anywhere.

 

[Metallix87]

Never. That's not how Valve operates for ANY of their game. Yes it's stupid and infuriating, but this is how they work. And reading too much into silence is not really going to get anywhere.

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I could be wrong, but I don't recall it ever being this way with Team Fortress 2 back in the day.

 

[Tim]

I didn't really pay attention to TF2, but remember Diretide? The car company Volvo responded before Valve lol

 

[Frozenprince]

Never. That's not how Valve operates for ANY of their game. Yes it's stupid and infuriating, but this is how they work. And reading too much into silence is not really going to get anywhere.

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Well that's fine if the game wasn't, you know, literally dead at this point.

You can't be silent as your infrastructure craters just because that's your organizational model. If that is your model, your model is broken. Which is why the distinct possibility is they've just completely abandoned this and will let it quietly die.

 

[rickyson33]

for me personally this game just felt too....tiring to play

I was somewhat excited for it on release and played a few games which took like a half hour+ each,enjoyed myself but just........never felt like playing it again

doesn't help that it's not exactly the most spectator friendly card game either

 

[HylianSeven]

I didn't really pay attention to TF2, but remember Diretide? The car company Volvo responded before Valve lol

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Yep, this is standard for Valve. They'll come out with some update that the game will either turn it around with or it will continue to flop and then I bet it gets killed for real.

SirActionSlacks is doing a no-shave campaign until Artifact is updated.

 

[Toxi]

right, those main stay names in tcg are stable but apparently HS is 50 percent down yoy. That's probably just a large market shrink because nobody else has gained that much, not even magic arena. Artifact being doa was really bad news for card games in general. I thought things were looking up and competition was going to add a lot to this space, but nope it's crashing instead.

Click to shrink...

Posts like these seem less than objective.

A couple years ago, what were the big card games? Hearthstone and Shadowverse. Today, what are the big card games? Hearthstone, Shadowverse, Magic Arena. Hearthstone is faltering, but the rest of the market is growing or basically unaffected. You even have non-CCGs like Slay the Spire finding success. If you wanted "competition", there's more for Hearthstone than ever; it's just that it turns out successfully competing with Hearthstone means free-to-play and a card game not designed for people who hate card games.

 

[Metallix87]

M

Posts like these seem less than objective.

A couple years ago, what were the big card games? Hearthstone and Shadowverse. Today, what are the big card games? Hearthstone, Shadowverse, Magic Arena. Hearthstone is faltering, but the rest of the market is growing or basically unaffected.

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I'll be honest: I've never heard of Shadowverse before. Is it really that big?

 

[Qvoth]

shadowverse is still alive in japan mainly afaik