Lack of empathy and #metoo

[Felt]

Yeah OP, people are self-preserving and selfish in their interests. Just look at the threads for the various celebrities. Stan Lee gets a huge fucking defense force and the victim could jump off a bridge, but others can have their entire career burned and they can rot in prison.

If it's their favorite celebrity, they will give them the benefit of the doubt. If they are any less than enamored with that celebrity: they can burn to the ground lol.

for me: I don't care what they did. Their accomplishments don't matter. You touch someone that didn't agree to let you, you can get fucked.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

A lot of defensiveness in this thread, but you make a legitimate point. It is eye-rolling to see people seemingly (and yes, "seemingly" is important here) care more about their heroes being disappointing than about the victims.

To those who feel defensive, perhaps you DO care about the victims more, and that's great. But maybe you ought to just stop for a moment and think about the kind of message or priorities you're sending to readers, particularly women and/or victims of sexual assault, who read this day after day after day. It's not a lot to ask.


No, we're not.

Please do not attempt to shut down the conversation with posts like these.


Good point.

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Disagreement doesn't mean defensiveness, though. I hear your desire that people would stop and reflect (which is generally an important thing to do in life), but you're assuming that the issue is that people haven't really thought it through or considered the impacts. I have, and I don't end up with the conclusion that the OP's defined approach is the only acceptable one.

 

[John Doe]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we’ve never heard of the accuser.

I don’t see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

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That's fair, hadn't thought of it like that.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

That's fair, hadn't thought of it like that.

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Sincerely - kudos to you for considering the responses.

 

[feeltheswift]

A lot of defensiveness in this thread, but you make a legitimate point. It is eye-rolling to see people seemingly (and yes, "seemingly" is important here) care more about their heroes being disappointing, than caring about the victims.

To those who feel defensive, perhaps you DO care about the victims more, and that's great. But maybe you ought to just stop for a moment and think about the kind of message or priorities you're sending to readers, particularly women and/or victims of sexual assault, who read this kind of comment day after day after day. It's not a lot to ask to just to a bit of self-reflection and express a bit more of that empathy you claim to have.


No, we're not.

Please do not attempt to shut down the conversation with posts like these.


Good point.

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I meant it more as a +1, obviously I can’t shut down the thread...

I just think the quotes in the OP are clearly connected to empathy towards Kelis it just doesn’t outrightly state it? Quotes 3 and 4 call him a “loser” and “fuck him”. It’s pretty clear what sides they are taking.

 

[legacyzero]

Yeah OP, people are self-preserving and selfish in their interests. Just look at the threads for the various celebrities. Stan Lee gets a huge fucking defense force and the victim could jump off a bridge, but others can have their entire career burned and they can rot in prison.

If it's their favorite celebrity, they will give them the benefit of the doubt. If they are any less than enamored with that celebrity: they can burn to the ground lol.

for me: I don't care what they did. Their accomplishments don't matter. You touch someone that didn't agree to let you, you can get fucked.

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Different people are different statuses, creating different reactions. I didn't see people giving Stan Lee a pass. Just destroyed by the fact that a man way more legendary than Nas is an alleged offender of sexual abuse. It's a Cosby vs Louis CK thing. Both good at their craft in their own right, but Cosby is clearly more legendary and influential than CK, hence a different reaction.

 

[Morrigan]

So let's stop this shit of "can we do better?!" We're doing just fine thanks.

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Is this for real

 

[Gakidou]

While I don't know if people deserve to be chastised for it...

Specifically hoping that your favorite celeb "isn't next" makes it about you instead of the victim. "Boy I sure hope I'm not disappointed and have to face the moral quandry of still giving them money!"

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Kinda agree with this and OP to some degree. Nobody's really saying that you can't lament how its affected you in some small way...
But like, the whole #metoo movement is being re-framed by many critics as a "witch hunt" (oh the irony) and so a "WHO'S NEXT ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK?" and "NOO THIS RUINED MY CHILDHOOD" kind of mentality reinforces that, and it makes victims of sexual assault feel more reluctant to make accusations because they'll read the situation as a possibility that people will eventually want to "shoot the messenger" rather than side with them.

 

[808s & Villainy]

It's a bit ironic that you make this thread and rather than being glad that these stories are finally being brought to light and the perpetrators are being outed, you're more concerned that people aren't processing it the way you think they should. If this is about the victims then what's most important is their stories being brought to light and them getting some sense of catharsis and/or justice, isn't it?

 

[TheRuralJuror]

It's a bit ironic that you make this thread and rather than being glad that these stories are finally being brought to light and the perpetrators are being outed, you're more concerned that people aren't processing it the way you think they should. If this is about the victims then what's most important is their stories being brought to light and them getting some sense of catharsis and/or justice, isn't it?

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Well said.

 

[legacyzero]

Is this for real

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So a couple of items. Firstly, you quoted one sentence out of my entire post defending people who have done great to voice their even indirect support for the victims, by not supporting the offender going forward. This aint Chik-Fil-A when we can yell about their morally abhorrent views, and then hit the CFA drive thru the next day. You didn't even quote the NEXT sentence where I defended the sentence you quoted.

Secondly- the proof is in the pudding (on a very progressive board where many agree, This shit is terrible, and the offenders deserve the social consequences).

So yes. It's a real post.

GOD, I hate when people selective quote me.

EDIT: Also, your post is not a debate in good faith. At least tell me what you find disagreeable about my post. You're a mod.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Our relationship to the story is through the celebrity in question. In the case of the Nas story we do know who Kelis is, but to a greatly lesser degree. In most cases we’ve never heard of the accuser.

I don’t see how it diminishes support for the accuser. The disappointment in the accused celebrity implies we believe the allegation.

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First post gets it right

 

[FireSafetyBear]

Everybody is a piece of shit in the long run. Remember they’re men in power and they’ll do anything to keep it/abuse it so it shouldn’t be entirely surprising unless you believe nobody could possibly rape or assault another person.

 

[BringBackSonics]

It's a bit ironic that you make this thread and rather than being glad that these stories are finally being brought to light and the perpetrators are being outed, you're more concerned that people aren't processing it the way you think they should. If this is about the victims then what's most important is their stories being brought to light and them getting some sense of catharsis and/or justice, isn't it?

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Perfectly stated.

 

[Morrigan]

So a couple of items. Firstly, you quoted one sentence out of my entire post defending people who have done great to voice their even indirect support for the victims, by not supporting the offender forward. This aint Chik-Fil-A when we can yell about their morally abhorrent views, and then hit the CFA drive thru the next day. You didn't even quote the NEXT sentence where I defended the sentence you quoted.

Secondly- the proof is in the pudding (on a very progressive board where many agree, This shit is terrible, and the offenders deserve the social consequences).

So yes. It's a real post.

GOD, I hate when people selective quote me.

EDIT: Also, your post is not a debate in good faith. At least tell me what you find disagreeable about my post. You're a mod.

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I've read the entire post, and that part still jumped out at me. It's incredibly dismissive of the entire conversation. You not-so-subtly accuse the OP of concern trolling, for one. You try to twist what the OP is saying, when the OP clearly said his concern (which you pretty much accuse him of faking by saying he's "blatantly concern trolling" -- not cool, by the way) was about the focus over their feelings about their heroes over caring about the victims. OP is trying to get people to think about the message they're sending a bit more, and you dismiss it by "people show support their own way, we don't need to do better, we're doing just fine". It's one thing to disagree with the OP, but you are explicitly advocating for less self-reflection and less progress. You are not just disagreeing with the OP, you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Ask just about any female reader on this forum how they feel when reading topics of sexual assault. I can tell you that a significant majority of them don't even post in these threads because they feel so disillusioned, so unwelcome, so exhausted, and even outright disgusted, by how these threads go. So yeah, I really wonder (thinkingemoji.gif) what they'd think upon seeing some guy going "we don't need to do better, we're doing just fine" in response to the mildest of criticism towards how these threads typically go.

 

[TalonJH]

I get what you are saying but those post are so empathetic to the victim that they are swearing off something that they liked or enjoyed because of the connection to the offender. Sure they could say more about the victim(I can agree with this) but it's not a sign of lack of empathy or else they wouldn't care enough to give up what they enjoyed.

Edit: I think a lot of it comes from people not wanting to let someone get away with what they did wrong unscathed so they don't do it again.

 

[Medalion]

There are 2 sides to everything OP...

Unfortunately people go with who they cared about first and more...

If a hero/idol you look up has committed an act or acts that are quite heinous, your first reaction is to express disappointment in them... and then... sympathy for the victim
This is a normal human reaction because most likely you don't know the victim in question... while it is a bad thing to have happened for sure, your emotions relate to who you know better in that circumstance.,,

Like if the victim was the one you related too, you would care moer about them, and then condemn the abuser who you may have had less attachment or awareness of.

This shouldn't be some kinda guilt trip thing

 

[SturokBGD]

Solution: "kill your idols".

 

[legacyzero]

I've read the entire post, and that part still jumped out at me. It's incredibly dismissive of the entire conversation. You not-so-subtly accuse the OP of concern trolling, for one. You try to twist what the OP is saying, when the OP clearly said his concern (which you pretty much accuse him of faking by saying he's "blatantly concern trolling" -- not cool, by the way) was about the focus over their feelings about their heroes over caring about the victims. OP is trying to get people to think about the message they're sending a bit more, and you dismiss it by "people show support their own way, we don't need to do better, we're doing just fine". It's one thing to disagree with the OP, but you are explicitly advocating for less self-reflection and less progress. You are not just disagreeing with the OP, you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Ask just about any female reader on this forum how they feel when reading topics of sexual assault. I can tell you that a significant majority of them don't even post in these threads because they feel so disillusioned, so unwelcome, so exhausted, and even outright disgusted, by how these threads go. So yeah, I really wonder (thinkingemoji.gif) what they'd think upon seeing some guy going "we don't need to do better, we're doing just fine" in response to the mildest of criticism towards how these threads typically go.

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Ok fair enough, that’s a better response. Firstly, you must’ve misread my post. I’m not shutting anything down. I’m saying that it’s disingenuous and dumb to conflate posters voicing their displeasure and disconnection from the offender, as a lack of empathy for the victim.

Secondly, I’m not even close to the first or the only one in this thread suggesting that. So my telling the OP that the conversation has been progressing just fine, from the days of “I need proof first”, is a lot of what others here were saying

Thirdly, in a discourse where I see an awful lot of finger-wagging at people who don’t respond “the correct way” to these threads, I’m also not seeing a positive response when the conversation shifts in the clearly agreeable direction of people responding that they no longer wish to support the offender in any way.

Again, like many others have posting in this thread, the OP comes off as trying to form their own high ground, and it comes off as patronizing to the greater effort. And people are pointing it out.

It’s not intended to be dismissive. It’s meant to highlight where the bar is, and one individual doesn’t have the right to try and move that bar

 

[Lord Brady]

In pretty much every one of these threads, the topic is the star/celebrity. It's natural for people to talk about their feelings/disappointment etc in that celebrity. Doing so isn't indicative of a lack of empathy for the victim. Humans can feel two things at the same time.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

Ok fair enough, that’s a better response. Firstly, you must’ve misread my post. I’m not shutting anything down. I’m saying that it’s disingenuous and dumb to conflate posters voicing their displeasure and disconnection from the offender, as a lack of empathy for he victim.

Secondly, I’m not even close to ge first or the only one in this thread suggesting that. So my telling the OP that the conversation has been progressing just fine, from the days of “I need proof first”, is a lot of what others here were saying

Thirdly, in a discourse where I see an awful lot of finger-wagging at people who don’t respond “the correct way” to these threads, I’m also not seeing a positive response when the conversation shifts in the clearly agreeable direction of purple responding hat they no longer wish to support the offender in any way.

Again, like many others have posting in this thread, the OP comes off as trying to form their own high ground, and it comes off as patronizing to the greater effort. And people are pointing it out.

It’s not intended to be dismissive. It’s meant to highlight where the bar is, and one individual doesn’t have the right to try and move that bar

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I think we can (and generally should) assume positive intent with regards to the OP - especially because they replied later in the thread, acknowledging that they hadn't thought about it from another angle that someone presented.

That said, I generally agree with you re: the narrow definition of "the correct way" to respond to these threads.

 

[Sub Boss]

Imagine if the pope was caught in a sexual scandal and how the most faithful would react

 

[Morrigan]

It's not necessarily about a "correct" way to respond. It's about thinking a little bit more before you post, about what kind of message you're sending, and about remembering that no posts are in a vacuum. An innocuous, innocent drive-by post, multiplied by ten, can paint a different picture than you intend.

 

[legacyzero]

I think we can (and generally should) assume positive intent with regards to the OP - especially because they replied later in the thread, acknowledging that they hadn't thought about it from another angle that someone presented.

That said, I generally agree with you re: the narrow definition of "the correct way" to respond to these threads.

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That’s fair, though intent and impact aren’t necessarily the same. People usually have what they feel as good intentions, only to find the impact was poorly received. Certainly not worth a tar and feather. But eligible for criticism.

And of course, my original criticism was met with what you and I agree as a “that’s not the right response” lol

 

[Deleted member 19844]

That’s fair, though intent and impact aren’t necessarily the same. People usually have what they feel as good intentions, only to find the impact was poorly received. Certainly not worth a tar and feather. But eligible for criticism.

And of course, my original criticism was met with what you and I agree as a “that’s not the right response” lol

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Agreed that intent and impact aren't the same, however you were going after their intent when you called it blatant concern trolling. (Though I guess you could have actually been referring to the general discourse in #metoo threads.)