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Feb 9, 2019
2,485
Gacha Hell
Do you have employee diversity stats to hand to know they've increased over the years since the comments and management positions took place? Unsure whether it affects the issues with the imagery in Cyberpunk 2077 either. Workplace diversity is a great thing but it's seems divorced from their actions as a company so far.

I don't and I'm not claiming this one gesture pushes them comfortably into fully redeemed territory, but like I said, it's a step in the right direction. It makes me doubt they're the mass of hatred and bigotry some claim they are. This doesn't erase their past mistakes and people shouldn't just forget about them, but we shouldn't use those to dismiss every attempt at being better as insincere either.

As for Cyberpunk, the only thing that had alarm bells ringing in my head so far was that one ad poster, but I'd say the artist's explanation was fair. I don't agree with everything she said, but I can see where she's coming from.

Hiring LGBT people seems to be positive but no info on their labor conditions + the overall context makes the whole situation uneasy.

"I hired this worker and after a year i learned that they are gay but I didnt fire them over it" is significantly different than "I knew this person was gay and I still hired them".

Also like, some companies arent against hiring LGBT but the behavior from inside the company is quite gross. You can employ a thousand LGBT people but if they are a joke within the company then it matters very little. For an example, look at Naughty Dog and the harassment accusations. A gay man was allowed to work in the company but then he was harassed by one of the higher ups, iirc.

It looks good but I wouldnt call it that without further info, especially when the company already has a problematic record.

That's a fair point, but like I said, it just doesn't feel right to me to assume the worst if there's nothing to suggest it. There are unfortunately cases of LGBTQ folk being harassed in the industry and that's obviously unacceptable, but so far all we know about CDPR's workplace environment is their sadly all too common in AAA studios embracing of crunch culture. As problematic as it is, it's an economic issue rather than a social one.

I imagine for a lot of companies they simply view it as an opportunity to increase brand awareness or simply appear woke.

Oh, I do agree. I just found it amusing this thread has posts suggesting CDPR was simultaneously trying to have their brand score points with queer folk and distancing their brand from a celebrity because they don't want to get close to anything queer.
 
Last edited:

smuf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
533
They should get Janelle Monáe instead. Cyberpunk AF and a great actress to boot.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,155
I don't and I'm not claiming this one gesture pushes them comfortably into fully redeemed territory, but like I said, it's a step in the right direction. It makes me doubt they're the mass of hatred and bigotry some claim they are. This doesn't erase their past mistakes and people shouldn't just forget about them, but we shouldn't use those to dismiss every attempt at being better as insincere either.

As for Cyberpunk, the only thing that had alarm bells ringing in my head so far was that one ad poster, but I'd say the artist's explanation was fair. I don't agree with everything she said, but I can see where she's coming from.
What attempts though?

Again without stats there's no notion of progression or improvement. I still can't find a statement on Pride or LGBTQ+ support from the company themselves - which if you're claiming support for Pride I'd expect even if just a usual press piece. You're accrediting them with some sort of repeat progressing positive action for which there's zero evidence of.

For the Cyberpunk response, my issues are as below. Meshed from previous posts but the combined points I feel are fair.



Still comes off as tone deaf if all this is is another large corporation abusing people's bodies for profit; they are a large company selling a video game to make a load of money. If there doesn't pan out to be some wider nuanced theme surrounding trans and non binary people then they're literally enacting that which they claim to hate.

They've not earned any good will - rather the opposite - and seem to have zero care in reaching out to the community to reassure them and dive into how "Gender in Cyberpunk 2077" really is. They even declined to elaborate further on the design with the trans woman writer of the Daily Dot piece, just forwarding her to the Polygon article.

If you're known for mocking a sensitive topic and then claim to care deeply about it, maybe you should actually make some effort in showing that care and how you're handling it. So this whole "we're trying to show how bad companies are" reasoning becomes a little questionable when you don't seem to be doing anything to distinguish yourself from them.




They are actively choosing to not reassure the community they've mocked in the past and refused to apologise to. They could very easily have recognised the rift made by past actions and made efforts to show how they're handling the sensitive topic well. A blog post or video into "Gender in Cyberpunk 2077" would have been all that's required.

Instead we get a shitty image used in-game and for real-world promotions, and a follow up statement about how they are handling it with nuance, trust.

I find it hard to believe that if they have got this extremely nuanced take on trans and non binary issues, woven expertly into a main story or character, that they would be content with sitting on it knowing the ill-will and their past actions. Instead of promoting it and actively showing how far they've come in their handling of these topics.

Instead I think it's likely they're waiting for the release because all the people that love the game will be making too much noise for any "where's the well-written trans characters" to gain much traction. It's hard enough to have the discussions pre-release without people feeling a need to jump in with a shield, let alone when it's out, shiny and new.
 

Odinsmana

Member
Mar 13, 2019
2,242
I'm not withholding judgement because they don't deserve it. They are actively choosing to not reassure the community they've mocked in the past and refused to apologise to. They could very easily have recognised the rift made by past actions and made efforts to show how they're handling the sensitive topic well. A blog post or video into "Gender in Cyberpunk 2077" would have been all that's required.

Instead we get a shitty image used in-game and for real-world promotions, and a follow up statement about how they are handling it with nuance, trust.

I find it hard to believe that if they have got this extremely nuanced take on trans and non binary issues, woven expertly into a main story or character, that they would be content with sitting on it knowing the ill-will and their past actions. Instead of promoting it and actively showing how far they've come in their handling of these topics.

Instead I think it's likely they're waiting for the release because all the people that love the game will be making too much noise for any "where's the well-written trans characters" to gain much traction. It's hard enough to have the discussions pre-release without people feeling a need to jump in with a shield, let alone when it's out, shiny and new.

That`s fair. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt since they have handled representation well in their previous releases, but I understand that not everyone is going to do that.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,155
That`s fair. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt since they have handled representation well in their previous releases, but I understand that not everyone is going to do that.
That's fair, and I'm not suggesting you throw a pre-order receipt in the fire alongside an effigy of Geralt.

These (trans/nb) are important issues for people as you know and it's a shame when others are quick to dismiss them when, all nonsense aside, it's primarily because the company in question made their favourite video game. Not attributing that to you as you've engaged with the discussion, just elaborating on why some of us seem a bit wound tight by it.
 
Feb 9, 2019
2,485
Gacha Hell
What attempts though?

Again without stats there's no notion of progression or improvement. I still can't find a statement on Pride or LGBTQ+ support from the company themselves - which if you're claiming support for Pride I'd expect even if just a usual press piece. You're accrediting them with some sort of repeat progressing positive action for which there's zero evidence of.

After a bit of googling I must concede I was mistaken in assuming they had officially associated themselves with the Pride gathering, but in the end I'd still claim having a group of employees attending the event shows their studio culture is not as toxic as some people assume. I stand by what I said before though: I agree they have to do better, but I just don't see them as a hive of scum and villainy on the level of Riot or god forbid, THQN.

As for your analysis of where Cyberpunk stands in terms of representation, I agree they have done more than enough to make people have legitimate doubts about their ability to portray them in a competent manner. The Witcher has good writing though, so I think they have a fair chance to pull it off. Time will tell.
 

tiesto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,865
Long Island, NY
Ahh, always love hearing those with thousands of posts on a gaming-themed forum, some of whom even work for prolific game companies, probably pretty high PSN trophy count, try to convince people they're "not gamers".
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,155
After a bit of googling I must concede I was mistaken in assuming they had officially associated themselves with the Pride gathering, but in the end I'd still claim having a group of employees attending the event shows their studio culture is not as toxic as some people assume. I stand by what I said before though: I agree they have to do better, but I just don't see them as a hive of scum and villainy on the level of Riot or god forbid, THQN.

As for your analysis of where Cyberpunk stands in terms of representation, I agree they have done more than enough to make people have legitimate doubts about their ability to portray them in a competent manner. The Witcher has good writing though, so I think they have a fair chance to pull it off. Time will tell.
I don't see them as a hive of scum and villainy either. It isn't a race to the bottom nor do I have any desire for a company to become more transphobic. They've had a poor history of handling trans and non-binary issues and seem to be touching on them again and in a not too subtle way from what they've shown us to date. I've no interest in holding myself back from criticising a corporate entity when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues, when part of the entire reason for having such things is to have an object for which to assign blame to. Especially when they (rightfully) have no issue accepting their success and praise as one.

Fair point on the Witcher writing standard and I would love for you to be right. The theme and art direction of the game is fantastic and I would love to play it without feeling shit or shot at (well, aside from being actually shot at). It would be amazing if they handle the themes well and I can relate to story points and characters on that level. I'm just waiting for them to show me that, and so far they've chosen to show a bulging erection, "mix it up" and chromanticore.
 

ImNotAFroot

Member
Nov 6, 2017
295
Let's see, in this train wreck of a thread I've seen:

- People claiming B+/A- at most List Keanu is at the same level as AAA List worldwide superstar Lady Gaga
- People downplaying Gaga's Oscar because it was related to (yet another) one of her smash singles, and not necessarily the acting (which she was also NOMINATED for) but who tf cares, an Oscar is an Oscar and she has one and your fave doesn't
- Claims of Gaga being washed up despite her wildly successful, critically acclaimed film making huge bank to the point it was even re-released as an Encore Edition in theaters (available on home video now!)
- Downplaying of Gaga's acting talent despite the fact she outshone Crazy Eyes Cooper in his own film
- The delusion that a problematic company with one mild hit could afford even a single recording/mo-cap session with Gaga
- People trying to use Do What You Want as some sort of "gotcha!" (sad) despite the fact she's explained, apologized, and washed her hands of that mess and a superior all female version of the song was performed with Gaga and a fan:



I -

IXi9uEK.gif


This scalding tea, gamers should just stick to games.

OT: Of course she's not, who would want to be involved with such a toxic company.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Ahh, always love hearing those with thousands of posts on a gaming-themed forum, some of whom even work for prolific game companies, probably pretty high PSN trophy count, try to convince people they're "not gamers".
Its always amazing when people"s reaction to others saying "im not a gamer" is to go "no, you are" instead of perhaps asking why there are people that reject a category that is associated with horrible attitudes against progressive movements and minorities in general.

Like, ok, lets pretend that you win the semantics game. They *are* gamers. We *are gamers*.

What do you win? We are still very unhappy with what being called a "gamer" represents and I do not like being associated with that. Are you going to go "yeah but you play games a lot so you are a gamer, checkmate" or are you actually going to try and understand why people hate that label?
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Such a damn shame. Gaga would have fitted perfectly. I would have preferred her over John Wi.. Keanu anyday.
 
Feb 9, 2019
2,485
Gacha Hell
I don't see them as a hive of scum and villainy either. It isn't a race to the bottom nor do I have any desire for a company to become more transphobic. They've had a poor history of handling trans and non-binary issues and seem to be touching on them again and in a not too subtle way from what they've shown us to date. I've no interest in holding myself back from criticising a corporate entity when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues, when part of the entire reason for having such things is to have an object for which to assign blame to. Especially when they (rightfully) have no issue accepting their success and praise as one.

Fair point on the Witcher writing standard and I would love for you to be right. The theme and art direction of the game is fantastic and I would love to play it without feeling shit or shot at (well, aside from being actually shot at). It would be amazing if they handle the themes well and I can relate to story points and characters on that level. I'm just waiting for them to show me that, and so far they've chosen to show a bulging erection, "mix it up" and chromanticore.

I have to admit my first post was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and I may have come across as a bit agressive as a result. It's frustrating to know from their previous games they are perfectly capable of writing a good story, and yet every thread about them always ends up like this... and it's their own damn fault because they can't stop shooting themselves in the foot with PR and social media. There's barely any foot left to shoot and they keep shooting it.
 

Roygbiv95

Alt account
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
1,037
The fuck? I didn't even know she was even rumored to be in this lol. Or anything about Tom Hardy either.

This game is going to be a bombastic af and I can't wait ^__^
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
As for Cyberpunk, the only thing that had alarm bells ringing in my head so far was that one ad poster, but I'd say the artist's explanation was fair. I don't agree with everything she said, but I can see where she's coming from.
About the poster, as I've been giving it some thought after E3. It's really something I would rather have expected conservatives to be complaining about. Full disclosure I'm cis, so I don't understand all the possible harmful implications with the picture.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,155
I have to admit my first post was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and I may have come across as a bit agressive as a result. It's frustrating to know from their previous games they are perfectly capable of writing a good story, and yet every thread about them always ends up like this... and it's their own damn fault because they can't stop shooting themselves in the foot with PR and social media. There's barely any foot left to shoot and they keep shooting it.
Pretty much on that last point, and I appreciate your discussion and the frustration in the constant association.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,421
Bayonetta teamup confirmed!*

*Not actually confirmed
 

H-I-M

Banned
Apr 26, 2018
1,330
Tea basically means gossip/hearsay. "Spill the tea" = "Let's gossip"

Not really.

Let's see, in this train wreck of a thread I've seen:

- People claiming B+/A- at most List Keanu is at the same level as AAA List worldwide superstar Lady Gaga
- People downplaying Gaga's Oscar because it was related to (yet another) one of her smash singles, and not necessarily the acting (which she was also NOMINATED for) but who tf cares, an Oscar is an Oscar and she has one and your fave doesn't
- Claims of Gaga being washed up despite her wildly successful, critically acclaimed film making huge bank to the point it was even re-released as an Encore Edition in theaters (available on home video now!)
- Downplaying of Gaga's acting talent despite the fact she outshone Crazy Eyes Cooper in his own film
- The delusion that a problematic company with one mild hit could afford even a single recording/mo-cap session with Gaga
- People trying to use Do What You Want as some sort of "gotcha!" (sad) despite the fact she's explained, apologized, and washed her hands of that mess and a superior all female version of the song was performed with Gaga and a fan:



I -

IXi9uEK.gif



tenor.gif
 

Fart Master

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,328
A dumpster
So I guess CDPR would never work with Lady Gaga because they're anti-LGBTQ fucks who don't want to associate their brand with anything progressive...

...but at the same time having their workers participating in Pride events is just them desperately trying to score points with the LGBTQ crowd by associating their brand with something progressive.


Don't even bother bro