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Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Rotten Tomatoes.

Wesley Morris, NYT:
I've seen Wade Robson, a doll-faced Michael Jackson impersonator from Brisbane, Australia, say he was 7 when Michael began abusing him, describing a grim scenario in which he was naked on all fours at the edge of the bed, poised — trapped — between his idol, who was masturbating to him, and a cutout of Peter Pan.

I've heard all of this — and a distressing deal more — by the time the documentary gets to the part where Jackson allegedly takes Safechuck shopping for a ring. But there's something about the way the filmmakers reserve this scene for the back end of Part 1 that ices your bones, something about the way an adult Safechuck doesn't seem to want to go back there. But here he is, talking in a TV documentary about the vows he says that he and Jackson exchanged. Here he is, forlorn, holding the ring that he's kept, all this time, in a handsome box.

The story of the ring and the vows feels as graphic as the memories of masturbation and French kissing and nipple tweaking. If you happen to be the sort of person who'd try to balance, say, the multiple counts of child molestation Jackson was charged with in 2003 and acquitted of later with extenuating details from Jackson's biography (Wasn't heabused and too famous too soon and prematurely sexualized? He never had a childhood! He's still a child!), if you partook in the steady diet of fluffy news stories about Jackson and some little boy (often identified as "Jackson's friend") and thought mostly that they were cute or banal and that Jackson just related to kids as kids — like, platonically — if you thought that he couldn't know there was a real difference between adult passion and child's play, then perhaps you'll find Safechuck's memory of the ring particularly shattering. I did. It's so private and wrong, not just to us but clearly to Jackson, who makes up a story at the jewelry store that the ring is for a woman, even though Safechuck is there by his side.

He knew.

Richard Roeper, Chicago Sun Times:
Having seen the devastating and undeniably persuasive film, I can't say with 100 percent certainty Jackson molested the alleged victims — but at the very least, the VERY least, we're reminded of how bizarre it was for this man to have cultivated such close relationships with a number of boys, even as his legions of fans and his supporters rationalized it by saying Jackson was just like Peter Pan and he had the soul of a child and he was an innocent who didn't want to grow up.

What a load of … nonsense.

Inkoo Kang, Slate:
The first half of Leaving Neverland is propelled by dread, as Robson and Safechuck, then child performers and Jackson impersonators, near the orbit of the singer and are subsequently groomed and trained for sex acts. (The details are unsparing; prepare yourself.) The latter half of the documentary is spurred by anticipation, as we learn how the victims extricate themselves from Jackson's influence and gradually recognize their abuse for what it was. In their 20s, Robson and Safechuck suffered from panic attacks and turned to drug use without comprehending the role that sexual assault played in their then-inexplicable distress. (Their stories, about both Jackson's M.O. and the aftereffects thereof, are remarkably similar.) Leaving Neverland also benefits from Robson's extreme candor. He attributes his resolve to defend Jackson in court to a multitude of factors, including his sympathy for the singer's young children, lingering loyalty to the man who had inspired and boosted his dancing career, and fear that his life might be ruined too in the process. And though the documentary doesn't explore this possibility, it's plausible that Robson and Safechuck's gender played a role in their reluctance to speak out against Jackson too, given that male victims are generally afforded much less support than female ones. It wasn't until Robson and Safechuck became fathers themselves that the last traces of their one-time affection for Jackson completely disappeared.

Matt Zoller Seitz, via New York Magazine:
We never see the acts that James Safechuck and Wade Robson say they endured as minors while visiting Jackson's Neverland Ranch and Century City apartment, but these are described in such detail that viewers may be seized by a new impulse: to look away from what they're hearing. Mutual masturbation; oral sex; penetration; regular exposure to orgies and porn; emotional abuse characterized as special attention: Jackson is accused of all this and more. Safechuck and Robson were children when Jackson "discovered" them — Robson in Brisbane, Australia, where the boy had been performing with a kids' dance troupe; Safechuck in Los Angeles, on the set of a beloved Pepsi ad about a small boy exploring Jackson's backstage dressing room and doting on his gloves and hat. Safechuck was 9. Robson was 7. As these now-adult men speak of what they saw and did in in the late 1980s and early '90s — the era when they say Jackson groomed them — they talk slowly and softly, doubling back to add details or amend descriptions. Years ago, Robson testified in court and Safechuck publicly supported the singer, both countering other protégés who'd accused Jackson of crimes. They know full well that a lot of people watching Leaving Neverland will reflexively disbelieve them because their new testimony contradicts what came before (and because they each unsuccessfully sued Jackson's estate in the years after his death). They know that people who have never experienced abuse won't understand how kids can love their tormentors and wish to protect them.

How Leaving Neverland Does a Disservice to Michael Jackson's Accusers vis Slate
It is worth noting, though, that Leaving Neverland director Dan Reed never sought comment from the Jackson estate on the devastating claims made by the film's two subjects, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who both allege that Jackson sexually abused them as children. Reed says the film's narrow scope—a tightly framed look at the lives of two boys and their families as they are seduced into Jackson's bizarre, rarefied, possibly predatory orbit—was a creative decision.
That one-sidedness has less to do with the absence of Jackson's family than with the film's lack of candor regarding complicating information about Robson, Safechuck, and two of Jackson's previous accusers. Viewers inclined to regard the allegations against Jackson with skepticism will find these holes leave room for their misgivings to grow. In glossing over, and sometimes entirely excluding, elements of the factual record, the documentary hobbles its chances to convince skeptics that these men are telling the truth. This misstep—one that presumably stems from a desire to protect Robson and Safechuck—actually does a grave disservice to both men, whose stories I believe.

I didn't see a review thread. Documentary premiers on HBO March 3rd, and it's two parts.

Also, please see thread marks for countering opinions as well as a note on the nude child art books found during the Neverland raid in the early 2000s.
 
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TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
"Having seen the devastating and undeniably persuasive film, I can't say with 100 percent certainty Jackson molested the alleged victims — but at the very least, the VERY least, we're reminded of how bizarre it was for this man to have cultivated such close relationships with a number of boys, even as his legions of fans and his supporters rationalized it by saying Jackson was just like Peter Pan and he had the soul of a child and he was an innocent who didn't want to grow up.

What a load of … nonsense. "

This is how I feel towards the constant, constant refrain on this forum. I wonder why more pedophiles don't use this reasoning. Why don't they have this miraculous soul of a child that only a talent like Jackson was blessed with, and beautiful grooming amusement park, yet every other grown man who who wants to sleep in beds with children is a sick fucking bastard.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
believe victims

even if the abuser is michael jackson

can't believe people are still standing up for this monster just because he had some good songs

the emotional manipulation and abuse is absolutely bone chilling
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
People will make the argument: 'some accused are innocent'.

Okay, but then you have to reconcile the fact that every single one of Jackson's accusers , of which there were many, were lying.

So how many accusations did he need before you were going to suspect him of being a perv?
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
I don't believe Wade, because of how the past accusations have been proven unture and looking closely into Wade's own claims. Posting from another thread:

Whatever you think, please take the time to read this. So this is going to be a long post and it's probably going to be followed by many more long posts to come. Today I've been researching more than ever before what exactly was contained in Wade Robson's lawsuits and how that contrasted with his own mother's deposition. There's clear contradictions and more often than not it seems he's trying to frame or mischaracterize MJJ Productions, in order to make a clear legal target out of it.

Key takeaways:
  • Wade talks about MJJ Productions as being something that was used to acquire him and other minors for sexual abuse, when he didn't even meet Michael through the company and his mother directly contradicts that narrative and talks about how she continuously sought Michael out for years.
  • Wade talks about an evil plot orchestrated by Michael and the MJJ Productions company to make him and his family move permanently from Australia to California when his mother says that it was his father's idea, and that she asked Michael for help to sponsor their move
  • She tells Wade about one of his stories "none of that is true."
  • According to Joy in both 2005 and 2016, they only ever spent four days at Neverland and only once was Michael actually there.

Wade filed a civil lawsuit against MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for monetary compensation, saying that these were "the most sophisticated public child sexual abuse procurement and facilitation organization the world has known" that knowingly and deliberately "facilitated" his alleged sexual abuse. "[Robson] alleges these "meet and greets" were purposely orchestrated by MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a sexual grooming mechanism to acquire minor sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson, disguised as charitable events for minors." Given how aggressively prosecutors hunted for anything against MJ, it seems really hard to believe this could have never been investigating. Wade didn't meet him through these meet and greets, he actually met with Michael in 1987 in Australia after winning a dance competition. And more importantly, these meetings were organized by Target, Pepsi, and CBS, not MJJ Productions or MJJ Ventures. Joy Robson, Wade's mother, said that there were a lot of people present at these events.

Wade was invited to dance on stage with MJ at a show, and according to Wade himself didn't spend any time off-stage with him. They would have likely never met again, but Joy delivered a thank you letter to Michael at his hotel and the three of them met. Joy then continuously sent him letters about Wade progressing as a dancer, and didn't meet him again until two years later (1990) when the family sought him out. Joy called several Australian TV channels looking for any way to contact Michael. Joy called Michael's personal assistant Norma Staikos and got a meeting with Michael at a recording studio. This is all according to Joy Robson's deposition.

Wade characterized that meeting completely differently in his lawsuit: "[Robson] is informed and believes, and on that basis alleges that Ms. (Norma) Staikos was acting on behalf of MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures, as a "madam" or "procurer" of child sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson. Although disguised as another charitable "meet and greet" between [Robson], his parents and Michael Jackson, this event was purposely orchestrated by Ms. Staikos, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a further means for Michael Jackson to acquire another sexual abuse victim and grooming him and his parents for such."

This is, of course, in complete contrast to Joy's deposition. Per Joy's account, this meeting was in no way orchestrated by Staikos/MJJ Productions, it was initiated by Joy Robson.

Then Robson alleges that MJJ Productions organized that the family be permanently moved from Australia to California. "In order to arrange for their immigration to the United States, Michael Jackson had MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures hire [Robson] and his mother, and arranged for [Robson], his mother and sister to move permanently to California. [Robson] alleges this was done by Michael Jackson, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for the explicit purpose of allowing Michael Jackson access to [Robson] for sexual abuse." But according to Joy's testimony, the idea for their moving to the states' came from Dennis Robson, Wade's father, and Joy also wanted to move. "You know, I — I believed that Wade had a future here, and I — I felt like he had gone as far as he could go in Australia. He really needed to be here." According to Joy, the Robsons' needed a sponsor to stay in the States and asked Michael for help. As was said in her deposition:

"And did you ask him to do that?" And you responded: "Yes, pretty much. Basically, I asked for help, so that was the only way we could stay, so yes."

Further, according to Joy, she was still the one to pursue communications with Michael, asking him to put him in music videos like Jam. She even cut ties with him for six months because Michael wouldn't call Wade during the Dangerous tour, and Michael wouldn't take him on the tour like Wade wanted.

Perhaps most interestingly, in 2005 his mother said while being questioned by the prosecution that in fourteen years Wade was only at Neverland ON FOUR OCASSIONS.

Thomas Sneddon: And then from that point, from September of 1991 up till, let's just say, September 1993 – okay? – the time frame involved, you and your son spent a great deal of time with Michael Jackson, you were around him a lot, correct?

Joy Robson: I don't think so.

Thomas Sneddon: You were not at the ranch on a number of occasions during 1991?

Joy Robson: My memory is in the entire time we've lived here since 1991, we've only been at the ranch with Michael on four occasions in 14 years.

Thomas Sneddon: Four occasions?

Joy Robson: Every other time we've been here without him.

Thomas Sneddon: Would that be the same for your son?

Joy Robson: Yes.

So Wade now says he was lying in 2005. And so you might think, maybe his mother was lying in 2005 too? But in her 2016 deposition, Joy reiterated that they only stayed at Neverland four or five times and that Michael was only there once, in the summer of 1993.

EDIT: There's also a 264 page document in support of the Estate which includes some e-mails between Wade and his mother. In some of them, Wade seems to be passing ideas by her and regarding one she says quite simply that it's not true. Wade e-mailed at 8:55 PM:

"There is testimony from a security guard that states the Mother's Day incident was in 1990. What do you think?

In a witness statement taken by the SBSB on April 15, 1994, in connection with the Chandler Investigation, Charli T. Michaels (a security guard at Neverland from March 21, 1990 through March 6, 1992) stated that she encountered Wade and his mother during their visit to Neverland in May 1990, and witnessed an incident involving Jackson and Wade. Ms. Michaels stated that on Mother's Day 1990..." (it goes on)

Joy answered a few minutes later at 9:03: "Wow. None of that is true..." However, Wade used the story in his complaint anyway.

There's also e-mails about Wade looking to get a book published about his allegations in 2012 before he went public. He was turned down by several book publishers. According to Wade's literary agent, Wade had been asking for "a large amount of money"; Wade denied this in a 2016 deposition.

While Wade now has James Safechuck with him on the documentary, Wade and his legal team also worked for the last few years to get other men who had known Michael as children in on the lawsuit. They tried to force Jordan Chandler to testify and said that they were trying to hunt down Jordan wherever he was hiding. Brett Barnes refused to testify against Michael and said that he never molested him. They went after Jonathan Spence, who had befriended MJ in the 80s as a child and who maintains that nothing happened. It says in the documents: "Plaintiff Wade Robson and his counsel have treated Spence in the most abominable manner – without the slightest regard for Spence's concerns and objections regarding Spence's unilaterally-noticed deposition" and "[Robson's] bullying behavior toward a non-party is inexcusable and speaks for itself."
 
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Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
"Having seen the devastating and undeniably persuasive film, I can't say with 100 percent certainty Jackson molested the alleged victims — but at the very least, the VERY least, we're reminded of how bizarre it was for this man to have cultivated such close relationships with a number of boys, even as his legions of fans and his supporters rationalized it by saying Jackson was just like Peter Pan and he had the soul of a child and he was an innocent who didn't want to grow up.

What a load of … nonsense. "

This is how I feel towards the constant, constant refrain on this forum. I wonder why more pedophiles don't use this reasoning. Why don't they have this miraculous soul of a child that only a talent like Jackson was blessed with, and beautiful grooming amusement park, yet every other grown man who who wants to sleep in beds with children is a sick fucking bastard.
Exactly. This place seem s super hypocritical when it comes to MJ.
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
Wade Robson is a pretty successful choreographer. I remember him doing some really memorable work on SYTCD. He was also the kid dancer from Moonwalker, I believe.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
All I ever, ever, ever need to hear was from Jackson's own mouth. He slept with children in the same goddamn bed. He said this. On television. Every one of his defenders brushes this away and yet never would for any other grown man.

"Do you think it's okay to share your bed with children?"

Michael Jackson:

" OF COURSE"

FUCK YOU.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Why Jackson still gets a free pass in the MeToo era is beyond me.

People accuse Drake of grooming because the texts with Millie Bobby Brown, but the guy who built his own personal grooming theme park is "just a guy who loves children because he never had a childhood."
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
It seems to me that most people believed he was a creep from the mid-90s until his death. I remember he was seen as quite the disliked media ghoul in the early 2000s. Remember him dangling his child out the window?

But when he died he was lionized, his reputation flipped around, and it seemed from the wisdom of the crowd that most of the charges had been fraudulent. There was a logic to it: weird Peter Pan billionare hangs out with kids, leaves himself open to fraudulent lawsuits. I even bought it at the time.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the crowd was wrong, and I was wrong. Heartbreaking.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
Why Jackson still gets a free pass in the MeToo era is beyond me.

People accuse Drake of grooming because the texts with Millie Bobby Brown, but the guy who built his own personal grooming theme park is "just a guy who loves children because he never had a childhood."

"Drake, I hear you cradle Millie Bobby Brown in your bed lovingly, do you think this is acceptable?"

"OF COURSE"

Drake, the soul of a child!
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
User banned (1 week): victim blaming rhetoric
believe victims

even if the abuser is michael jackson

can't believe people are still standing up for this monster just because he had some good songs

the emotional manipulation and abuse is absolutely bone chilling
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Why Jackson still gets a free pass in the MeToo era is beyond me.

People accuse Drake of grooming because the texts with Millie Bobby Brown, but the guy who built his own personal grooming theme park is "just a guy who loves children because he never had a childhood."
That is an interesting double standard. Huh I never thought about that. It was known he did stuff like sleeping in bed with kids and whatnot and it's defended a lot.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
Honestly, I was wrong about Micheal Jackson. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in the past and I feel bad for it. Less than a year ago I started listening to what the victims had to say, and stopped listening to the defense force that was in favor of MJ. This shit is just inexcusable and MJ was definitely a pedophile who sexual assaulted and manipulated kids. This is something we all need to accept at this point, regardless of if you were a fan of his music.
 

Downhome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,356
I haven't read any details, I don't know anything about it. I'm gonna ask this though.

The two guys involved, they say it happened when they were kids obviously. But wasn't the court case and all of that taking place when they were adults and of age and they still even then denied anything happened? Were they paid off to continue to say nothing happened? What are the details of all of that? Or I could be totally wrong. I just want to go in with a clear and open head when I watch this.

Either way, for the record, I do still believe MJ was guilty and did most if not all of what was accused of.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,023
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?

Because its fucking Michael Jackson. A man that almost everyone on planet earth can hum on of his songs. You expect people to want to challenge that?

And besides, replace "Michael Jackson" with "Bill Cosby" or "Harvey Weinstein" and listen to how your defense sounds like.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
Why Jackson still gets a free pass in the MeToo era is beyond me.

People accuse Drake of grooming because the texts with Millie Bobby Brown, but the guy who built his own personal grooming theme park is "just a guy who loves children because he never had a childhood."
This is what I wanted to post. You'll see the same posters defending MJ in one thread and jumping on Drake in another. Shits funny
 
Dec 9, 2017
1,431
User Banned (permanent): Inflammatory drive-by posting regarding sexual abuse, history of severe infractions
MJ didn't do that shit. Wade Robson running scams.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?
I waited until I was almost 47 before I ever told anyone about the abuse from a relative that went on for years when I was about those boys age. And like them I felt protective of my abuser even well into my adulthood, and lied when I was initially asked in my 20s if he had ever molested me ( as he by that point had been accused ). Something I wish people could think about - sexual abuse by nature is dishonest - the manipulation and lies are intertwined, you lie to protect yourself and lie to yourself.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?
Is this a serious question? Do you apply this same logic to all victims of abuse?
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?
But everyone here believes men get way with their crimes in legal battles. But have faith in the law when it comes to MJ.
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
Because its fucking Michael Jackson. A man that almost everyone on planet earth can hum on of his songs. You expect people to want to challenge that?

And besides, replace "Michael Jackson" with "Bill Cosby" or "Harvey Weinstein" and listen to how your defense sounds like.

I'm not going to defend MJ but that's not exactly a solid argument when both of the people you said to replace MJ with have been found guilty. Weinstein hasn't yet but he will be. MJ was found innocent so in terms of what you're saying it doesn't really hold up.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Because its fucking Michael Jackson. A man that almost everyone on planet earth can hum on of his songs. You expect people to want to challenge that?

And besides, replace "Michael Jackson" with "Bill Cosby" or "Harvey Weinstein" and listen to how your defense sounds like.
Neither of them were found not guilty in court.

And before you say people get away for stuff and that not guilty doesn't mean innocent, many of the specific details of the accusations were proven to be lies.

The mother in the 2005 case had tried the same thing with Jay Leno.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,947
Why Jackson still gets a free pass in the MeToo era is beyond me.

People accuse Drake of grooming because the texts with Millie Bobby Brown, but the guy who built his own personal grooming theme park is "just a guy who loves children because he never had a childhood."

This is what I wanted to post. You'll see the same posters defending MJ in one thread and jumping on Drake in another. Shits funny

Because there is OVERWHELMING evidence that MJ was innocent. Maybe educate yourself on the matter before jumping on the tired band-wagon of "MJ is a child molester."

I don't believe Wade, because of how the past accusations have been proven unture and looking closely into Wade's own claims. Posting from another thread:

Whatever you think, please take the time to read this. So this is going to be a long post and it's probably going to be followed by many more long posts to come. Today I've been researching more than ever before what exactly was contained in Wade Robson's lawsuits and how that contrasted with his own mother's deposition. There's clear contradictions and more often than not it seems he's trying to frame or mischaracterize MJJ Productions, in order to make a clear legal target out of it.

Key takeaways:
  • Wade talks about MJJ Productions as being something that was used to acquire him and other minors for sexual abuse, when he didn't even meet Michael through the company and his mother directly contradicts that narrative and talks about how she continuously sought Michael out for years.
  • Wade talks about an evil plot orchestrated by Michael and the MJJ Productions company to make him and his family move permanently from Australia to California when his mother says that it was his father's idea, and that she asked Michael for help to sponsor their move
  • She tells Wade about one of his stories "none of that is true."
  • According to Joy in both 2005 and 2016, they only ever spent four days at Neverland and only once was Michael actually there.

Wade filed a civil lawsuit against MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for monetary compensation, saying that these were "the most sophisticated public child sexual abuse procurement and facilitation organization the world has known" that knowingly and deliberately "facilitated" his alleged sexual abuse. "[Robson] alleges these "meet and greets" were purposely orchestrated by MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a sexual grooming mechanism to acquire minor sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson, disguised as charitable events for minors." Given how aggressively prosecutors hunted for anything against MJ, it seems really hard to believe this could have never been investigating. Wade didn't meet him through these meet and greets, he actually met with Michael in 1987 in Australia after winning a dance competition. And more importantly, these meetings were organized by Target, Pepsi, and CBS, not MJJ Productions or MJJ Ventures. Joy Robson, Wade's mother, said that there were a lot of people present at these events.

Wade was invited to dance on stage with MJ at a show, and according to Wade himself didn't spend any time off-stage with him. They would have likely never met again, but Joy delivered a thank you letter to Michael at his hotel and the three of them met. Joy then continuously sent him letters about Wade progressing as a dancer, and didn't meet him again until two years later (1990) when the family sought him out. Joy called several Australian TV channels looking for any way to contact Michael. Joy called Michael's personal assistant Norma Staikos and got a meeting with Michael at a recording studio. This is all according to Joy Robson's deposition.

Wade characterized that meeting completely differently in his lawsuit: "[Robson] is informed and believes, and on that basis alleges that Ms. (Norma) Staikos was acting on behalf of MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures, as a "madam" or "procurer" of child sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson. Although disguised as another charitable "meet and greet" between [Robson], his parents and Michael Jackson, this event was purposely orchestrated by Ms. Staikos, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a further means for Michael Jackson to acquire another sexual abuse victim and grooming him and his parents for such."

This is, of course, in complete contrast to Joy's deposition. Per Joy's account, this meeting was in no way orchestrated by Staikos/MJJ Productions, it was initiated by Joy Robson.

Then Robson alleges that MJJ Productions organized that the family be permanently moved from Australia to California. "In order to arrange for their immigration to the United States, Michael Jackson had MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures hire [Robson] and his mother, and arranged for [Robson], his mother and sister to move permanently to California. [Robson] alleges this was done by Michael Jackson, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for the explicit purpose of allowing Michael Jackson access to [Robson] for sexual abuse." But according to Joy's testimony, the idea for their moving to the states' came from Dennis Robson, Wade's father, and Joy also wanted to move. "You know, I — I believed that Wade had a future here, and I — I felt like he had gone as far as he could go in Australia. He really needed to be here." According to Joy, the Robsons' needed a sponsor to stay in the States and asked Michael for help. As was said in her deposition:

"And did you ask him to do that?" And you responded: "Yes, pretty much. Basically, I asked for help, so that was the only way we could stay, so yes."

Further, according to Joy, she was still the one to pursue communications with Michael, asking him to put him in music videos like Jam. She even cut ties with him for six months because Michael wouldn't call Wade during the Dangerous tour, and Michael wouldn't take him on the tour like Wade wanted.

Perhaps most interestingly, in 2005 his mother said while being questioned by the prosecution that in fourteen years Wade was only at Neverland ON FOUR OCASSIONS.



So Wade now says he was lying in 2005. And so you might think, maybe his mother was lying in 2005 too? But in her 2016 deposition, Joy reiterated that they only stayed at Neverland four or five times and that Michael was only there once, in the summer of 1993.

EDIT: There's also a 264 page document in support of the Estate which includes some e-mails between Wade and his mother. In some of them, Wade seems to be passing ideas by her and regarding one she says quite simply that it's not true. Wade e-mailed at 8:55 PM:

"There is testimony from a security guard that states the Mother's Day incident was in 1990. What do you think?

In a witness statement taken by the SBSB on April 15, 1994, in connection with the Chandler Investigation, Charli T. Michaels (a security guard at Neverland from March 21, 1990 through March 6, 1992) stated that she encountered Wade and his mother during their visit to Neverland in May 1990, and witnessed an incident involving Jackson and Wade. Ms. Michaels stated that on Mother's Day 1990..." (it goes on)

Joy answered a few minutes later at 9:03: "Wow. None of that is true..." However, Wade used the story in his complaint anyway.

There's also e-mails about Wade looking to get a book published about his allegations in 2012 before he went public. He was turned down by several book publishers. According to Wade's literary agent, Wade had been asking for "a large amount of money"; Wade denied this in a 2016 deposition.

While Wade now has James Safechuck with him on the documentary, Wade and his legal team also worked for the last few years to get other men who had known Michael as children in on the lawsuit. They tried to force Jordan Chandler to testify and said that they were trying to hunt down Jordan wherever he was hiding. Brett Barnes refused to testify against Michael and said that he never molested him. They went after Jonathan Spence, who had befriended MJ in the 80s as a child and who maintains that nothing happened. It says in the documents: "Plaintiff Wade Robson and his counsel have treated Spence in the most abominable manner – without the slightest regard for Spence's concerns and objections regarding Spence's unilaterally-noticed deposition" and "[Robson's] bullying behavior toward a non-party is inexcusable and speaks for itself."

^
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
Is this a serious question? Do you apply this same logic to all victims of abuse?
no. however, and that makes this whole case very difficult, there has been a public and legal prosecution already and its not like the allegations there were less shocking compared to now. the allegations were not enough to convince a jury though and you cant just ignore the way the case was handled by the media. i cant help but feel very sceptical about the media when they bring up this subject because of the past sensationalism they showed.

if this work has enough evidence to prove that MJ was a child molester then they did a good job and shame on him.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
the point is that he had several legal battles. the last one being a very public prosecution and the prosecutors couldnt prove anything. why didnt the victims come out when the trial was on? why are they comming out now where MJ is dead and cant even defend himself?

Why do women wait to come out about sexual assault? I dunno, I guess they're lying every time :( /s
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,735
I am utterly surprised at the ignorant posts that seem to think people only defend MJ because they like his songs. Definitely has nothing to do with all this shit below and then some:

I don't believe Wade, because of how the past accusations have been proven unture and looking closely into Wade's own claims. Posting from another thread:

Whatever you think, please take the time to read this. So this is going to be a long post and it's probably going to be followed by many more long posts to come. Today I've been researching more than ever before what exactly was contained in Wade Robson's lawsuits and how that contrasted with his own mother's deposition. There's clear contradictions and more often than not it seems he's trying to frame or mischaracterize MJJ Productions, in order to make a clear legal target out of it.

Key takeaways:
  • Wade talks about MJJ Productions as being something that was used to acquire him and other minors for sexual abuse, when he didn't even meet Michael through the company and his mother directly contradicts that narrative and talks about how she continuously sought Michael out for years.
  • Wade talks about an evil plot orchestrated by Michael and the MJJ Productions company to make him and his family move permanently from Australia to California when his mother says that it was his father's idea, and that she asked Michael for help to sponsor their move
  • She tells Wade about one of his stories "none of that is true."
  • According to Joy in both 2005 and 2016, they only ever spent four days at Neverland and only once was Michael actually there.

Wade filed a civil lawsuit against MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for monetary compensation, saying that these were "the most sophisticated public child sexual abuse procurement and facilitation organization the world has known" that knowingly and deliberately "facilitated" his alleged sexual abuse. "[Robson] alleges these "meet and greets" were purposely orchestrated by MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a sexual grooming mechanism to acquire minor sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson, disguised as charitable events for minors." Given how aggressively prosecutors hunted for anything against MJ, it seems really hard to believe this could have never been investigating. Wade didn't meet him through these meet and greets, he actually met with Michael in 1987 in Australia after winning a dance competition. And more importantly, these meetings were organized by Target, Pepsi, and CBS, not MJJ Productions or MJJ Ventures. Joy Robson, Wade's mother, said that there were a lot of people present at these events.

Wade was invited to dance on stage with MJ at a show, and according to Wade himself didn't spend any time off-stage with him. They would have likely never met again, but Joy delivered a thank you letter to Michael at his hotel and the three of them met. Joy then continuously sent him letters about Wade progressing as a dancer, and didn't meet him again until two years later (1990) when the family sought him out. Joy called several Australian TV channels looking for any way to contact Michael. Joy called Michael's personal assistant Norma Staikos and got a meeting with Michael at a recording studio. This is all according to Joy Robson's deposition.

Wade characterized that meeting completely differently in his lawsuit: "[Robson] is informed and believes, and on that basis alleges that Ms. (Norma) Staikos was acting on behalf of MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures, as a "madam" or "procurer" of child sexual abuse victims for Michael Jackson. Although disguised as another charitable "meet and greet" between [Robson], his parents and Michael Jackson, this event was purposely orchestrated by Ms. Staikos, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures as a further means for Michael Jackson to acquire another sexual abuse victim and grooming him and his parents for such."

This is, of course, in complete contrast to Joy's deposition. Per Joy's account, this meeting was in no way orchestrated by Staikos/MJJ Productions, it was initiated by Joy Robson.

Then Robson alleges that MJJ Productions organized that the family be permanently moved from Australia to California. "In order to arrange for their immigration to the United States, Michael Jackson had MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures hire [Robson] and his mother, and arranged for [Robson], his mother and sister to move permanently to California. [Robson] alleges this was done by Michael Jackson, MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for the explicit purpose of allowing Michael Jackson access to [Robson] for sexual abuse." But according to Joy's testimony, the idea for their moving to the states' came from Dennis Robson, Wade's father, and Joy also wanted to move. "You know, I — I believed that Wade had a future here, and I — I felt like he had gone as far as he could go in Australia. He really needed to be here." According to Joy, the Robsons' needed a sponsor to stay in the States and asked Michael for help. As was said in her deposition:

"And did you ask him to do that?" And you responded: "Yes, pretty much. Basically, I asked for help, so that was the only way we could stay, so yes."

Further, according to Joy, she was still the one to pursue communications with Michael, asking him to put him in music videos like Jam. She even cut ties with him for six months because Michael wouldn't call Wade during the Dangerous tour, and Michael wouldn't take him on the tour like Wade wanted.

Perhaps most interestingly, in 2005 his mother said while being questioned by the prosecution that in fourteen years Wade was only at Neverland ON FOUR OCASSIONS.



So Wade now says he was lying in 2005. And so you might think, maybe his mother was lying in 2005 too? But in her 2016 deposition, Joy reiterated that they only stayed at Neverland four or five times and that Michael was only there once, in the summer of 1993.

EDIT: There's also a 264 page document in support of the Estate which includes some e-mails between Wade and his mother. In some of them, Wade seems to be passing ideas by her and regarding one she says quite simply that it's not true. Wade e-mailed at 8:55 PM:

"There is testimony from a security guard that states the Mother's Day incident was in 1990. What do you think?

In a witness statement taken by the SBSB on April 15, 1994, in connection with the Chandler Investigation, Charli T. Michaels (a security guard at Neverland from March 21, 1990 through March 6, 1992) stated that she encountered Wade and his mother during their visit to Neverland in May 1990, and witnessed an incident involving Jackson and Wade. Ms. Michaels stated that on Mother's Day 1990..." (it goes on)

Joy answered a few minutes later at 9:03: "Wow. None of that is true..." However, Wade used the story in his complaint anyway.

There's also e-mails about Wade looking to get a book published about his allegations in 2012 before he went public. He was turned down by several book publishers. According to Wade's literary agent, Wade had been asking for "a large amount of money"; Wade denied this in a 2016 deposition.

While Wade now has James Safechuck with him on the documentary, Wade and his legal team also worked for the last few years to get other men who had known Michael as children in on the lawsuit. They tried to force Jordan Chandler to testify and said that they were trying to hunt down Jordan wherever he was hiding. Brett Barnes refused to testify against Michael and said that he never molested him. They went after Jonathan Spence, who had befriended MJ in the 80s as a child and who maintains that nothing happened. It says in the documents: "Plaintiff Wade Robson and his counsel have treated Spence in the most abominable manner – without the slightest regard for Spence's concerns and objections regarding Spence's unilaterally-noticed deposition" and "[Robson's] bullying behavior toward a non-party is inexcusable and speaks for itself."
 
OP
OP
Brian McDoogle
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
I'm not going to defend MJ but that's not exactly a solid argument when both of the people you said to replace MJ with have been found guilty. Weinstein hasn't yet but he will be. MJ was found innocent so in terms of what you're saying it doesn't really hold up.
To be pedantic, the court system in America doesn't find people innocent. It finds people not guilty, and there's a chasm between the two.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,047
I haven't read any details, I don't know anything about it. I'm gonna ask this though.

The two guys involved, they say it happened when they were kids obviously. But wasn't the court case and all of that taking place when they were adults and of age and they still even then denied anything happened? Were they paid off to continue to say nothing happened? What are the details of all of that? Or I could be totally wrong. I just want to go in with a clear and open head when I watch this.

Either way, for the record, I do still believe MJ was guilty and did most if not all of what was accused of.
Wade Robson testified for MJ (denied the allegations) in his 2005 trial (he was 23). He and the other accuser (from the doc) sued MJ's estate in 2013, but the case was dismissed in 2017.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
I haven't read any details, I don't know anything about it. I'm gonna ask this though.

The two guys involved, they say it happened when they were kids obviously. But wasn't the court case and all of that taking place when they were adults and of age and they still even then denied anything happened? Were they paid off to continue to say nothing happened? What are the details of all of that? Or I could be totally wrong. I just want to go in with a clear and open head when I watch this.

Either way, for the record, I do still believe MJ was guilty and did most if not all of what was accused of.

Actually dont believe any of them at this point. I liv3d through the jackson trial and put him through the ringer and tore apart all his properties while he was out of the country to make sure he didnt know. Interviewed over 50 children past and present and it all came up with nothing. And the investigation was done by a police department who hated Michael because of how weird he was.

All this is now is pissing on a dead man's grave. Culkin and other child rape survivors of Hollywood have been getting stories from other stars and kids that havr been abused for the last decade and Culkin himself doesnt believe anything happened with Michael outaide of him being a weirdo.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,023
I'm not going to defend MJ but that's not exactly a solid argument when both of the people you said to replace MJ with have been found guilty. Weinstein hasn't yet but he will be. MJ was found innocent so in terms of what you're saying it doesn't really hold up.

It took DECADES for those allegation to come out. And in that time, these men being creeps was an open secret to people in the know.

And R Kelly was also found not guilty in his first trial. Why aren't you defending him?
 

Allstar

Member
Feb 9, 2019
53
Anyone who doesn't believe them, lol. Just the mere fact that we know he has slept naked in bed with children is not okay. What would you do or think if a naked man slept in his bed with your child? Would it be fine just because it's MJ?

Anyway, he's obviously done more than only sleep with them and I believe all the accusers. Only because there was a family that lied about it in order to make cash, does not make the other claims any less valid.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
People will make the argument: 'some accused are innocent'.

Okay, but then you have to reconcile the fact that every single one of Jackson's accusers , of which there were many, were lying.

So how many accusations did he need before you were going to suspect him of being a perv?
I haven't seen the documentary. And I will not see it. But what proof do they have? Hasn't the FBI looked at this for years?
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
Can't victim blame in any other thread. Minimize child rape in THQ Nordic thread? Justified ban. Doubt Jussie? Justified ban. Call accusers of MJ liars? I guess we'll see.
 
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