Do you think Michael Jackson is an abuser? He slept with young boys alone in his bed, he gave them alcohol, he separated them from their parents, he called them late at night and had hours long conversations, wrote them love notes, etc.. Do you believe that's abuse?
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Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes
- Thread starter Brian McDoogle
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People who find it weird that Wade defended Michael years ago should take a look at the video of the girls currently defending R Kelly.
I know it's the worst kind of attention possible, but I was watching the Oprah after show for a bit last night (it's up on YouTube for now, worried it'll get taken down soon if it hasn't already) and
it blows my fucking mind how Michael Jackson still gets all this world stopping attention even 10 years after his fucking death.
My thoughts on watching about half of Oprah's special so far last night:
Jimmy looks especially broken, it's really sad to see. Wade must be further along in the healing process, as has been pointed out already.
I find it inappropriate that there's basically joking around and laughter through some of this. And what's with the smiles I'm seeing from some people speaking? I find it weird. I forget who the guy was, I think he was a doctor, but he's basically got a grin on his face while he's talking and personally I find it a bit creepy :/ And why is Oprah joking around and getting laughs from the audience when she's talking about MJ giving Jimmy attention "anyone would want" like him saying the best part of his Hawaii trip was being with him? Rubs me the wrong way.
I'm glad she's trying to raise awareness though, it's very commendable.
it blows my fucking mind how Michael Jackson still gets all this world stopping attention even 10 years after his fucking death.
My thoughts on watching about half of Oprah's special so far last night:
Jimmy looks especially broken, it's really sad to see. Wade must be further along in the healing process, as has been pointed out already.
I find it inappropriate that there's basically joking around and laughter through some of this. And what's with the smiles I'm seeing from some people speaking? I find it weird. I forget who the guy was, I think he was a doctor, but he's basically got a grin on his face while he's talking and personally I find it a bit creepy :/ And why is Oprah joking around and getting laughs from the audience when she's talking about MJ giving Jimmy attention "anyone would want" like him saying the best part of his Hawaii trip was being with him? Rubs me the wrong way.
I'm glad she's trying to raise awareness though, it's very commendable.
That's the thing though, if it was so obvious, why wasn't he arrested and put in prison for these extremely serious crimes ?
It matters not really though, you have already made your mind up and others opinions won't change me being on the fence, so best to leave it at that.
Other celebrities have been found guilty of these kind of crimes but MJ hasn't so far but if the law ever comes to the conclusion he was guilty, then so be it, until then I'll just be on the fence about it.
On the fence about the sexual assault/molestation? Or on the fence about abusing children?
So are you trying to say because I don't know if MJ did it or not, I suddenly support these kind of crimes ?
Why does it have to get personal when people have different opinions ? If that's how it's going to be then you can go on the block list.
I have to ask as it went unanswered from my last post, have you watched the documentary in full, and the Oprah interview? I ask because if you have I'm curious as to your thoughts on everything Michael did outside of the sexual abuse, to both parties.
I really wish the people who make posts like this get banned.
We know he abused children. That's not even up for debate. Sleeping with young boys alone, giving them alcohol, separating them from their parents, giving them wedding rings and "marrying" them, having hours long phone calls with them, etc.. That's abuse dude. Why can't you admit that?
Are you saying that people who believe abuse survivors are a pitchfork wielding mob?
What's sad is that a lot of people who are defending MIchael Jackson in this very thread have shit on other celebrities for their own accusations, but apparently Michael Jackson gets a pass for some reason despite his case being much more compelling in the favor of being guilty than the majority of accusations out there. Not defending the rapists and assaulter of Hollywood, but it puts in perspective how fucked his defense force is priority-wise.
Do you want to go further then that? And say that he molested these guys?
If you have a question then I would gladly reply to the best of my knowledge. (the documentary airs here tonight).
I mean sure yeah, I definitely believe the accusers. There's no doubt in my mind that MJ fostered relationships with young boys for sexual gratification.
All the Peter Pan shit was obviously a lie. He was enough of an adult to control his brand and make millions. We also know his childlike voice was completely fake. Also, and something that I see as totally indefensible, he only had these relationships with young boys. He obviously had a thing for pre pubescent boys. He lured them into incredibly inappropriate relationships and then dropped them for another boy after they went through puberty.
Taking everything we know into account, I feel that anyone who doesn't think he molested children is an idiot. But even ignoring that, he abused children and that's fact.
100% no question about it.
I always has said it. The moment you sleep with children you don't really know ,you are abusing these children.
He was an adult and he knows fully well or should know very well what he does and is responsible for his deeds.
Also with the other stuff you don't give alcohol to children. YOU ARE THE ADULT and you know that is wrong.
In my mind he should have been penalized for it. Just as well that the parents should have been punished by letting their children sleep with a adult stranger, gifts or no gifts. You have a responsibility over them. You don't put children in harm's way.
Now I haven't seen the evidence of the documentary yet . But to me it speaks about the greatness of the crime.
And I am not saying that he is innocent but it makes a big difference if he slept with these kids for innocent reasons (which he should have been punished for) or molested these kids or some kids in the most horrific way possible to the most vulnerable humans on earth.
That's why I would like if there is a whole new investigation and trying to find the truth. Give others like Jordan and such the chance to speak again let other people speak again. Do everything over again. The story has changed in my opinion. These two have come forward and deserve a new investigation and deserve justice if they say is true. I don't want this " but he is death there is nothing that can be done anymore". If he is guilty then there must be some justice. If these victimes don't want the money then the estate must pay much much money to an organization that help all abuse victims if he has been found guilty. I hope I was clear. But if I was not then please say it and I will try to clarify my points.
And yeah it is your full right to believe them. But do you agree that there is a whole difference between the abuse of children (in the form of serving alcohol and sleeping with them (if say that he did it for innocent reasons)) and straight up molesting children? Or are they the same to you. And do these deserve the same penalty?
Thank you for being the one in about 6 who didn't just ignore my very straightforward question.
One thing I will say to the bolded is there is no innocent reason for a grown man to sleep with strange children. Full stop.
Because even if you don't have intentions of abusing them, you still are by allowing them to believe that sleeping in the same bed with strange men is normal. It's not. It's psychological abuse and it's coming from a place of self interest.
At the very least, he abused children. Going by the above, it's not much of a logical leap to assume that he molested children.
But deniers are blinded by celebrity or idol worship. A random person off the street doing the above plus:
- Leaving voicemails for kids halfway around the world
- Having secret hand gestures to show affection when out in public
- Having film crews recording kids dancing as some kind of audition because MJ was lonely
- The "best thing about Hawaii was you" (paraphrasing the mock interview)
7 years old and left with MJ for a week while the family took a trip to the Grand Canyon Jesus. Wtf.
These fucking parents. Poor kids
Sorry but fuck Mckauly Calkin dude can fuck off if he wants to continue to defend this fucker.
These fucking parents. Poor kids
Sorry but fuck Mckauly Calkin dude can fuck off if he wants to continue to defend this fucker.
Yeah I agree completely. There is no reason that can be given to justify that in my mind. A sane adult always must know that this is abuse. You as adult are responsible for all your deeds. And if he was not a sane man then the justice system must have made that clear to him that with the friends and family around him.
The reason why nobody did this speaks against MJ and his family imo.
Excited for the fallout from the David Bowie doc that looks at his sex abuse.
MJ is one of the single most important performers of the last century. His impact on modern pop culture cannot be understated. Also he's probably a pedophile. Feldman and Culkin both said he never did anything to them and I believe them, but that doesn't mean he wasn't doing anything wrong, it meant he was surrounding himself with boys.
Making MJ and his music persona non grata seems silly since he's so baked into our culture and while I'm sure his impact will fade away over time, I think we have to reckon culturally in how we enabled abuse and *ignoring* him isn't going to do that. It's just going to make us forget about it.
(also, Rodin was a serial abuser and thief. Dude is also the father of modern sculpture. Both of these things are true, like how MJ can be both the King of Pop and a pedophile)
MJ is one of the single most important performers of the last century. His impact on modern pop culture cannot be understated. Also he's probably a pedophile. Feldman and Culkin both said he never did anything to them and I believe them, but that doesn't mean he wasn't doing anything wrong, it meant he was surrounding himself with boys.
Making MJ and his music persona non grata seems silly since he's so baked into our culture and while I'm sure his impact will fade away over time, I think we have to reckon culturally in how we enabled abuse and *ignoring* him isn't going to do that. It's just going to make us forget about it.
(also, Rodin was a serial abuser and thief. Dude is also the father of modern sculpture. Both of these things are true, like how MJ can be both the King of Pop and a pedophile)
This can not be tolerated imo about Mckauly. I find that very wrong of you.
That is basically saying fuck Robson for defending MJ in 2005.
If you're going to dredge up 70s rocks stars having sex with teenage groupies, you might as well put them all in a bin.
Let's do it and start afresh.
Agreed. Honestly, most entertainers alive in the heyday of coke and qualuudes probably have skeletons in their closet of varying sizes and intensity.
Really, we can't know anything about the stars we think we know everything about and that is one of the reasons these stories are so consistently shocking. Like, there was just an interview that told us Richard Pryor and Marlon Brando were sleeping with each other. That's fucking wild, imagine telling someone in 1977 that they're fucking. Public sexuality is all performance and what we're finding is that our media's dives into their love lives are all just PR bullshit and that what actually goes on behind the curtain is far beyond our wildest suspicions. Star authenticity is bullshit in as much that a star's personality is performed, not real. I think people tend to forget that because, well, you're supposed to forget that. And that star power gives license to stars to abuse their power.
That's why I hate when people are like "well, X is one of the good ones" because no, you don't know that. They're all people, they're all capable of doing great and horrible things like the rest of us. You don't and can't know these people by the very design of the systems they're in. You can infer qualities onto them but stars are a fiction, their personalities are meaningless. You judge them by their work because their life story could change at any moment.
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Some of the 'he's innocent' people who seem to keep wandering in here seem to forget Jimmy Saville sexually assaulted hundreds of people over the course of 30-40 years and it was swept under the carpet until he died. Monsters are remarkably good at hiding in plain sight.
Yeah I saw the sister and brother. Was just interested to know what the wife/grandmother say
I think that's tough and depends on what the abuse was, how the victims were affected, and why the abuser did it. Knowing everything we know, Michael groomed and used these children for sexual gratification. I don't know if I'd be able to engage too heavily in "abuse olympics" and definitively say that since there's no proof of penetration, it's not as bad. Like yes, I suppose if he didn't molest children, then we can say it would have been worse if he had. But he was using young boys to fufill some sort of fucked up, no doubt sexual, fantasy. And at that point, there really isn't any doubt in my mind. I 100% believe he molested those kids.
The stuff that we know happened is so far past any conceivable "line" that I don't see a whole lot of value in this discussion. He's a monster either way.
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Well quite. This notion the victims are coming forward for financial gain is disgusting frankly.
When you come back from your deserved ban, stick to discussing the Predator films. This entire discourse is clearly too mature for you.
I wouldn't blame Culkin or Feldman just yet.
Maybe , they are Innocent. MJ was not STUPID.
He knew exactly what he was doing. He wouldn't touch these two.
On the contrary, it makes everything blurrier because these other kids claim otherwise.
I watched part 1 and about halfway through part 2. Just got slightly past where they are talking about being in relationships. Will try to finish this tonight along with the Oprah thing.
Yeah MJ was fucked up. I mean he admitted to doing weird shit. Not sure why people would defend him at this point.
Yeah MJ was fucked up. I mean he admitted to doing weird shit. Not sure why people would defend him at this point.
Methinks that poster also doesn't, uh, get what the predator films are actually about then either
You can blame them if they go beyond simply saying they weren't abused by Michael. If they say no one else was abused because they weren't, they can fuck right off. Feldman appeared to be doing that but then changed his tune this week, and good for him for finally coming to his senses.
I know, but better to debate nerd shit than stuff that actually impacts people
To be fair, he was discussing a film about a predator.
Can someone help me understand the "he didn't have a childhood" Peter Pan syndrome defense? What kind of wide-eyed child-at-heart would...
- exhibit shrewd business savvy like buying The Beatles' catalog?
- threaten people with litigation?
- drink alcohol?
- abuse prescription drugs?
- collect/watch porn?
- get extensive plastic surgery?
- have their eyebrows, eyelids, and lips tattooed?
Just the fact that as a child he lied for Michael, which is an absolutely bullshit means of justifying Michael didn't rape him or anyone else. But then again, defenders are completely full of shit anyway.
Finished part one earlier this week, and I'm inclined to believe MJ is guilty.
I recently signed my kid up for Scouts, and as a participating adult I had to undergo abuse sensitivity training. In the first 20 minutes the type of behavior the victims and their families described checked all the boxes that I was taught in that training:
- targeting loners/social outcasts of the group
- befriending the parents and families
- buying gifts
- telling the kids they are special
- finding excuses to be alone with the victims
- slowly introducing more risky behaviors/testing the boundaries
Fucking hell.
I recently signed my kid up for Scouts, and as a participating adult I had to undergo abuse sensitivity training. In the first 20 minutes the type of behavior the victims and their families described checked all the boxes that I was taught in that training:
- targeting loners/social outcasts of the group
- befriending the parents and families
- buying gifts
- telling the kids they are special
- finding excuses to be alone with the victims
- slowly introducing more risky behaviors/testing the boundaries
Fucking hell.
Not really. He refused to testify in 05. He has the rings, the personal photos & recordings, the weird video of him in his bedroom that MJ requested, etc.
They're trying to arguing that someone with a 12 year old mentally would have no interest in sex and thus couldn't have abused those kids. This is ignoring the fact that 1. 12 year olds ARE interested in sex, puberty begins around this time or younger, and 2. Jackson HAS THREE KIDS so clearly he is interested in sex.
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