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Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes

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Oct 25, 2017
4,925
As a fan I don't want any of this to be true.

Whatever the truth is, the fact that this all 100 percent possible, is so sad and disturbing.

MJ having a traumatic childhood is no absolution for these things to have supposedly happened.

It's painful to think as a fan, but imagine those who went through it.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
5,541
Michael's nephew Taj and Marlon were on Breakfast Club today talking about this documentary. Taj mentioned the FBI investigation that people here have brought up. Also he mentioned MJ owning half of Sony's publishing which I had no idea about.

4:40 is where you can start of you wanna hear the FBI part

 
Oct 27, 2017
5,020
Love to be attacked by Jackson Stans for deflecting and then this is literally the very next post I encounter.

Drewton is not well.
Drewton seems to think that rapists rape literally every single person they see or is pretending to believe this to defend a pop star.

So I don't know.
He's arguing in bad faith about child molestation, saying he things he knows aren't true, to defend the honor of a dead pop star.

That's really fucked up.
I’m not arguing for anything I don’t believe. You genuinely seem to have nothing constructive to add to this discussion and all you’re doing is acting in bad faith making stuff up to personally attack me.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
4,408
User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory Commentary in a Thread Concerning Allegations of Child Sexual Abuse; History of Severe Infractions
I love that people are ignoring these facts.
How are people ignoring this shit? This whole thing is a fuckin' cash grab. MJ has been thru it all and under a microscope, he's innocent. Hell, he's the fuckin' victim. Jesus.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,350
I’m not arguing for anything I don’t believe. You genuinely seem to have nothing constructive to add to this discussion and all you’re doing is making stuff up to personally attack me.
Do you honestly believe this

"This was a letter MJ sent to a relative when he was worried about his nephew being molested. He clearly did not think child molestation was ok. "

Is proof of anything.

Have you ever looked into any rapist in the entire world.

Do you think Jackson not raping one child is proof in favor of him having never raped other children.

Do you really think these things or are you arguing in bad faith to defend a dead pop star.
 

junomars

Banned
Member
Nov 19, 2018
723
As a fan I don't want any of this to be true.

Whatever the truth is, the fact that this all 100 percent possible, is so sad and disturbing.

MJ having a traumatic childhood is no absolution for this things to have supposedly happened.

It's painful to think as a fan, but imagine those who went through it.
I mean people over play the fan thing. I'm a pretty big fan but it doesn't take a fan to recognize what seems to be numerous holes and inconsistencies in these stories and have pause.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,758
Terana
How are people ignoring this shit? This whole thing is a fuckin' cash grab. MJ has been thru it all and under a microscope, he's innocent. Hell, he's the fuckin' victim. Jesus.
lmfao. So every single person reviewing this doc is clearly wrong???

What the fuck am I reading in here
 
Oct 25, 2017
214
I just want to step in for a moment and point something out:


People who keep saying this? 80% of you wouldn't be saying this about a woman who said she slept in the same bed as kids.

It's coming from that same part of your lizard brain that society has trained to flinch any time you see a grown man alone with a little girl.

And you're going to deny it now that I have pointed it out, but there is a reason so many people keep phrasing it "a grown man" and so few "an adult".
I know you really THOUGHT you did something with this post but you really didn't. Michael Jackson is a man who has admitted to sleeping with kids. That is what my post referenced and that is what he said he did out of his own mouth. All this whataboutism about who would have or have not cared if this was a woman is not relevant because he is a MAN and as such, the content and context of my post referenced that. Maybe you or someone you know would have cared less if it wasn't a man but that has absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted.

Impressive job sidestepping the whole post and trying to turn this into some tangent about gender when that doesn't change that this man has willingly admitted to sharing his bed with children.

Let's discuss THAT rather than some random topic you're attempting to bring up to curb discussion on this man admitting from his own mouth that he slept in the same bed in children and how fucking creepy that is and gives the accusers a lot more credibility than people are willing to admit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,925
How are people ignoring this shit? This whole thing is a fuckin' cash grab. MJ has been thru it all and under a microscope, he's innocent. Hell, he's the fuckin' victim. Jesus.
MJ is not innocent. He set himself up for this with his lifestyle. And said lifestyle was completely improper. I don't know what it would have taken for him to make wiser choices, but what was done was done.

And, he ain't Jesus.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
Seattle
lmfao. So every single person reviewing this doc is clearly wrong???

What the fuck am I reading in here
Even people with good critical thinking skills can be convinced by a documentary even if it’s not true.

There’s reason to believe it’s possoble the 2 accusers are lying now, there’s also reason to believe they aren’t. But we’ll never know, all we know for sure is MJ showed some incredibly concerning behaviors that sure as hell looked like child grooming.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,286
Michael's nephew Taj and Marlon were on Breakfast Club today talking about this documentary. Taj mentioned the FBI investigation that people here have brought up. Also he mentioned MJ owning half of Sony's publishing which I had no idea about.

4:40 is where you can start of you wanna hear the FBI part

He's repeating the same incorrect information.

The reason this is so frustrating is that you can ~literally~ go on the FBI website and read the entire case. All of the information is public now. There is nothing preventing anyone from going on there and seeing what their investigation was. Yet people, including his nephew, choose to continue to perpetuate bullshit.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,350
He's repeating the same incorrect information.

The reason this is so frustrating is that you can ~literally~ go on the FBI website and read the entire case. All of the information is public now. There is nothing preventing anyone from going on there and seeing what their investigation was. Yet people, including his nephew, choose to continue to perpetuate bullshit.
Luckily though, there are no personal or financial biases that would cause the Jackson family to spout falsehoods!
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,408
He's repeating the same incorrect information.

The reason this is so frustrating is that you can ~literally~ go on the FBI website and read the entire case. All of the information is public now. There is nothing preventing anyone from going on there and seeing what their investigation was. Yet people, including his nephew, choose to continue to perpetuate bullshit.
Exactly. Many people are completely ignoring this. It's the goddamned FBI. Believe a documentary if you want tho. I'm not even really a fan of MJ's music, mostly the justice system in this case.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,350
Exactly. Many people are completely ignoring this. It's the goddamned FBI. Believe a documentary if you want tho. I'm not even really a fan of MJ's music, mostly the justice system in this case.
I... think you misread this post....

Michael Jackson was not investigated by the FBI for ten years but people have intentionally spread the lie that he was.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,268
NYC
I... think you misread this post....

Michael Jackson was not investigated by the FBI for ten years but people have intentionally spread the lie that he was.
I think what they were saying is that you can go through the information that the FBI found as it's all public and searchable at this time. A bit flippant, but the point stands. The information is there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,758
Terana
Reviewing what exactly? Is there any new proof offered in this?
Yes? That's the whole point of this thread! Did you actually read Wesley Morris' piece?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/arts/television/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland.html

If you choose to watch this documentary and come away with it feeling like these two victims would go through all this drama and trauma and admit this to their families just to make a buck or something that cynicism is on you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,951
MJ is a Woody Allen. He's a creep. Sure, he may not have done anything sexual with the kids, but what he did was still creepy as fuck and shouldn't have been allowed.
 
Apr 12, 2018
2,721
Me reading this thread because man are people getting way too heated at those who are calmly stating their POV ( and using facts too!)
And people bringing up R Kelly? Come on . I don’t see celeb worship I see a bunch of people who have seen yeaaaars of questionable attacks on a controversial figure that were eventually disproven. One doc doesn’t erase the entire road leading up to it . Of course if the truth is the worst case scenario then MJ will be rightly condemned but man some people really wanna see the man burn
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,350
Me reading this thread because man are people getting way too heated at those who are calmly stating their POV ( and using facts too!)
And people bringing up R Kelly? Come on . I don’t see celeb worship I see a bunch of people who have seen yeaaaars of questionable attacks on a controversial figure that were eventually disproven. One doc doesn’t erase the entire road leading up to it . Of course if the truth is the worst case scenario then MJ will be rightly condemned but man some people really wanna see the man burn
Arguments like "Man X didn't rape every single person he saw and had friends so he can't be a rapist" are... not really fact based.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,804
This entire conversation is about this one sentence which you are completely ignoring to try to talk about other things.

"Having proof of what you accuse someone of is sort of the cornerstone of the criminal justice system."

People's opinions aren't the criminal justice system.

Okay.

Do you get it now.
This is the weirdest debate I've ever had on this forum. I never said they...were? I don't even know what you're going on about.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,772
I'm curious if this documentary will spend any time trying to patch up Wade's shit credibility, or just sweep it under the rug. I'm afraid what we're going to get instead is a documentary 100% interested in convincing you based on emotion.

I'll be watching this Sunday.
 

junomars

Banned
Member
Nov 19, 2018
723
Yes? That's the whole point of this thread! Did you actually read Wesley Morris' piece?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/arts/television/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland.html

If you choose to watch this documentary and come away with it feeling like these two victims would go through all this drama and trauma and admit this to their families just to make a buck or something that cynicism is on you.
From everything I've gathered this is two individuals who have testified under oath saying the opposite of what they are claiming now. I haven't seen the doc but this isn't something you can just wave away. Nothing in that write-up tells me that there's any more proof being offered than previously.
 
Mar 5, 2018
3,033
I'm curious if this documentary will spend any time trying to patch up Wade's shit credibility, or just sweep it under the rug. I'm afraid what we're going to get instead is a documentary 100% interested in convincing you based on emotion.

I'll be watching this Sunday.
Wesley Morris from the Washington post says:
The movie presents Jackson almost entirely from the two families’ points of view, in photographs, answering machine messages and a montage of lovey-dovey faxes he sent to his “little one,” which is what James remembers Jackson calling him. He even remembers the lullaby Jackson built around the phrase. The movie recreates for us the haze Jackson cast over them. Its only moments of disputation arrive in the form of television, from, say, Jackson’s defense lawyers during the 2004-5 trial, and, in 1993, from Jackson himself, in a recorded statement against molestation charges brought by the father of Jordan Chandler. (It was nationally broadcast, as news.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/arts/television/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland.html
 
Could you give me a few sources for that, because I can't find a single one.
huffpost.com/us/entry/us_610258

Relevant quote:
Sneddon was later caught seemingly trying to plant fingerprint evidence against Jackson, allowing accuser Gavin Arvizo to handle adult magazines during the grand jury hearings, then bagging them up and sending them away for fingerprint analysis.
What’s hilarious is that during the trial it came out that the relevant issues of magazines hadn’t even been published before Arvizo started accusing MJ of molesting him.

You may continue your petty little crusade.
 
Oct 29, 2017
9
The media is working overtime on the this money grab. I don’t velive this guys story and won’t be watching this documentary.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,257
I'm still of the mindset, innocent till proven guilty.

Having said that, it doesn't excuse the things he did with kids, which he openly admitted without batting an eyelid.
 
Oct 25, 2017
113
I'm curious if this documentary will spend any time trying to patch up Wade's shit credibility, or just sweep it under the rug. I'm afraid what we're going to get instead is a documentary 100% interested in convincing you based on emotion.

I'll be watching this Sunday.
Right on the money:

Leaving Neverland review: Michael Jackson documentary is brutal, powerful, and flawed | EW.com
The larger issue with Leaving Neverland, though, is that for something that calls itself a “documentary,” it is woefully one-sided — and in some cases, conveniently selective about the information it chooses to include about its two subjects. Legally, Reed and HBO have no obligation to include a denial by Jackson’s estate — you cannot defame a dead man, as it were. (A clip of Jackson’s 1992 video denial is included in the film.) For a documentary to be a true work of journalism, however, it is incumbent upon the filmmaker to solicit comments from the opposing side — in this case Jackson’s estate, his family, etc. — which the estate insists Reed did not do. (On Feb. 21, the estate filed a lawsuit against HBO over Leaving Neverland.) The director has said that he did interview former detectives and prosecutors from the two principal investigations into Jackson, but the only opposing commentary in the film comes courtesy of YouTube videos, featuring wild-eyed fans berating Robson for going public with his claims. And Neverland all but ignores Robson and Safechuck’s lawsuits against the Jackson estate — both of which were dismissed and are currently under appeal. Though Robson’s suit is mentioned in the film, neither he nor Safechuck are questioned about the ongoing litigation or their motives for pursuing it.
Leaving Neverland’s lack of candor about Wade Robson and James Safechuck does them a disservice | Slate Magazine
It is worth noting, though, that Leaving Neverland director Dan Reed never sought comment from the Jackson estate on the devastating claims made by the film’s two subjects, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who both allege that Jackson sexually abused them as children. Reed says the film’s narrow scope—a tightly framed look at the lives of two boys and their families as they are seduced into Jackson’s bizarre, rarefied, possibly predatory orbit—was a creative decision.
That one-sidedness has less to do with the absence of Jackson’s family than with the film’s lack of candor regarding complicating information about Robson, Safechuck, and two of Jackson’s previous accusers. Viewers inclined to regard the allegations against Jackson with skepticism will find these holes leave room for their misgivings to grow. In glossing over, and sometimes entirely excluding, elements of the factual record, the documentary hobbles its chances to convince skeptics that these men are telling the truth. This misstep—one that presumably stems from a desire to protect Robson and Safechuck—actually does a grave disservice to both men, whose stories I believe.
Leaving Neverland director Dan Reed: ‘We needed to establish, in the most graphic terms, what Michael Jackson was doing with little children’ | The Independent
Reed says he approached Leaving Neverland with “all the scepticism and rigour that I would approach a story about a terrorist attack”. He went deep into the archives of various criminal investigations, interviewed detectives, and read files and statements, “a lot of which directly corroborated Wade and James’s story. I didn’t include that material in the film, because I felt the family accounts had a power all of their own.”

In Leaving Neverland, Reed gives space solely to Robson, Safechuck and their families. Over the course of three hours and 10 minutes, he lets them tell their story in their own time, and in as much detail as they need.
Finding a lot of evidence "which directly corroborated Wade and James’s story" but not include any of it in a friggin' documentary is a bullshit move, but whatever.
 
OP
OP
Brian McDoogle
Oct 25, 2017
4,910
I just got home. I'll threadmark and update the OP with some stuff. (though I don't think people notice/care about Threadmarks since people are all saying no one is reading/noticing Drewton's posts).
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,356
Call me crazy, but when I hear a drug-addled middle-aged man talk about how loving and sweet it is to share his bed with little boys, I label him a creep.

There is no excuse for that.
 
It's not. The article headline is wrong. The FBI, per their own website provided support for the case in 1994 and then provided support for the case in 2004. Someone read that and it turned into the FBI was investigating him for 10 years.

https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael Jackson
Except you’re twisting the truth as well. If you look at the documents you can see the investigation took place in ‘93, ‘95, ‘03 and ‘04. With seperate cases pertaining to ‘92 and ‘97.
So congrats, not a 10 year ongoing investigation but one that stretched about 10 years. That still left him clear of any wrongdoing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,356
Except you’re twisting the truth as well. If you look at the documents you can see the investigation took place in ‘93, ‘95, ‘03 and ‘04. With seperate cases pertaining to ‘92 and ‘97.
So congrats, not a 10 year ongoing investigation but one that stretched about 10 years. That still left him clear of any wrongdoing.
Unless you consider sleeping with random young boys to be wrong, which he admitted to doing. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,758
The unflinching MJ support might be the grossest thing in this community, and that’s saying something.
Any new evidence brought forward? No. Story from these accusers widly discredited by experts and judges in the past? Yes.

I'm not saying Michael Jackson wasn't weird and eccentric, I'm just saying I'm not convinced he was a pedophile.

Why wait for the 10 year anniversary of his death to release an HBO documentary about this? Nobody waited for the 10 year anniversary of Jimmy Saville's death to out him as a pedophile. And unlike this case there was alot of smoke and evidence to prove it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,356
Any new evidence brought forward? No. Story from these accusers widly discredited by experts and judges in the past? Yes.

I'm not saying Michael Jackson wasn't weird and eccentric, I'm just saying I'm not convinced he was a pedophile.

Why wait for the 10 year anniversary of his death to release an HBO documentary about this? Nobody waited for the 10 year anniversary of Jimmy Saville's death to out him as a pedophile. And unlike this case there was alot of smoke and evidence to prove it.
If this was Bob Jackson, a random rich drug addict who spent his nights sleeping next to different young boys, there’d be no question about his guilt from most of MJ’s defenders. The trials and investigations would be called shams where people were paid for their silence.

Common sense says you don’t do what he admitted to doing without some kind of dark desire to molest young boys.

A guy makes a few good songs though and he’s most likely just eccentric.
 
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Stinkles

343 Industries
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,948
Any new evidence brought forward? No. Story from these accusers widly discredited by experts and judges in the past? Yes.

I'm not saying Michael Jackson wasn't weird and eccentric, I'm just saying I'm not convinced he was a pedophile.

Why wait for the 10 year anniversary of his death to release an HBO documentary about this? Nobody waited for the 10 year anniversary of Jimmy Saville's death to out him as a pedophile. And unlike this case there was alot of smoke and evidence to prove it.
Have you seen the film yet?

Do you agree they are serious accusations brought up in a circus like atmosphere about a very strange man with deeply unsettling relationships with multiple hand picked boys who admitted to sleeping with them?

Do you think something like that deserves rigorous scrutiny?
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,772
Have you seen the film yet?

Do you agree they are serious accusations brought up in a circus like atmosphere about a very strange man with deeply unsettling relationships with multiple hand picked boys who admitted to sleeping with them?

Do you think something like that deserves rigorous scrutiny?
Yes. Which this documentary does not do.
 
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