Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes

[Lentic]

...The "lonely' fax wasn't specifically meant for Wade, was it? This was a family fax machine located in their living room. The faxes were for everyone to see. And no, if I had a close family friend who was basically like an uncle or big brother to my children, I wouldn't care if they sent what essentially amounts to "best wishes" cards to my house. You guys are deliberately viewing this in the most perverse way possible (partly because you've just finished watching a one-sided 2 hour film).

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Honestly, I feel like people have repeated it so many times in the thread already, but I'll say it again: sleeping with strangers kids is already perverse.

What kind of an adult man who has access to anything in the world chooses to pursue children? If you've bought into his narrative, you'll say he was just an innocent man that loved kids, but even innocent men who sincerely have love for children don't behave in the ways he did. His "love" was perverse and twisted.

 

[stupei]

...The "lonely' fax wasn't specifically meant for Wade, was it? This was a family fax machine located in their living room. The faxes were for everyone to see. And no, if I had close family friend who was basically like an uncle or big brother to my children, I wouldn't care if they sent what are essentially "best wishes" cards. You guys are intentionally view this in the most perverse way possible.

Just do it already.

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He's not an uncle. He's not a family friend. Stop pretending there isn't a clear, obvious power difference here.

He hands over piles of cash. In many ways, he is the employer of their son. Telling them that he's lonely and expects a message from his little one to fix it has connotations that go well beyond an uncle checking in to say hi.

 

[toastyToast]

I'm still unconvinced that any sexual abuse took place although I figured there would be elements of grooming. The accusations aren't that Michael Jackson was a terrible person which I can accept freely.

 

[TaterTots]

amounts to "best wishes" cards to my house. Y

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Your post does not equal to, "I'll give you money to spend time with your children, send cards saying I'm lonely, while I get to sleep in the same bed as them."

As an actual uncle that's nothing something I do.

 

[Seganomics]

The guy dangled his infant child out of a hotel balcony window and people here try and make out he had some deep love for kids that we just don't understand.

 

[TaterTots]

I haven't seen the film yet and I think that's creepy grooming behaviour from an adult directed at a child.

Do you have kids? Can I sleep with your kids? I've never been convicted for child abuse so you have nothing to worry about. Please let me buy you a new car and sleep with your kids.

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Just like a normal uncle.

 

[Shy]

I believe no one argues that MJ was weird and not of sound mind but there is a difference between that and having sex with children

Just wait for the court case guys, everyone deserves one and especially on grey cases like this one

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And i completely are with you.

It's just very frustrating with people in here, for the reason Beefy says. Ya know.

Don't have to have sex with kids to ruin lives. Abuse/ fucking their head up can have the same result. Many here don't get that

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The guy dangled his infant child out of a hotel balcony window and people here try and make out he had some deep love for kids that we just don't understand.

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Is it awful that i had completely forgot about that.

 

[stupei]

Don't have to have sex with kids to ruin lives. Abuse/ fucking their head up can have the same result. Many here don't get that

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I said it already, but people keep insisting his motives were pure and that, sure, almost any other adult man who behaved this way would be doing it to do something awful to children, but Michael was special, it's not fair to look at him the way you would anyone else in the entire world.

Okay.

So even if you assume he never did anything himself, he was training little boys to eagerly get into the bed with adult men.

That's abuse. That's dangerous abuse.

 

[Seganomics]

Is it awful that i had completely forgot about that.

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Watch the video of it back. Remind yourself of how messed up this guy was. People in here really seem to have forgotten.

 

[Lentic]

The guy dangled his infant child out of a hotel balcony window and people here try and make out he had some deep love for kids that we just don't understand.

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He was very good at creating an image of being a saintly person. Just look at some of the paintings he had in his house. To this day people still refuse to believe he was capable of doing anything bad.

 

[Shy]

Watch the video of it back. Remind yourself of how messed up this guy was. People in here really seem to have forgotten.

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Nah. I don't have to. The moment you mentioned it, i remembered.

 

[earthsucks]

b-b-b-but his dad hit him as a kid!

MJ was a fucking parasite.

 

[Bluelote]

the documentary is really strong, anyone interested in talking about MJ should watch it before continuing, for it to all be a lie is very unlikely, there is just too much.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I don't buy that anyone believes MJ is innocent. Not really. The sheer cognitive dissonance such people must be inflicting on themselves insisting they do makes my brain positively itch trying to imagine.
The Gary Glitters and Ian Watkins of the world must curse their lack of seminal music catalogues.

 

[Sphinx]

the documentary is really strong, anyone interested in talking about MJ should watch it before continuing, for it to all be a lie is very unlikely, there is just too much.

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is there a detailed summary of what is this people's evidence somewhere online??

as someone in Europe and no HBO, i don't think I'll ever see it.

the docu does seem to be turning people "on the fence" against MJ so it must have a very very strong case.

 

[MikeHattsu]

as someone in Europe and no HBO, i don't think I'll ever see it.

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It's getting shown in several European countries too:

UK
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-and-me/episode-guide/

Norway
https://www.nrk.no/kultur/nrk-viser-omstridt-michael-jackson-dokumentar-1.14449330

Sweden
https://www.svt.se/svt-bloggen/post/leaving-neverland/

Denmark
https://www.facebook.com/dr2tv/posts/1138716349639683

Netherlands:
https://www.vpro.nl/programmas/3doc/2019/Leaving-Neverland.html

 

[Deleted member 26139]

I know it's a lost cause, but Corey Feldman and Frank Cascio are offering up their 2 cents on social media.

 

[Kyuuji]

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What does people not having been molested by Michael have to do with people that claim they were?

Also the first image says everything up to the sex was an accurate reflection of his experience with Michael, which is enough abhorrent shit to put his reputation in the gutter as is.

 

[Deleted member 42055]

What does people not having been molested by Michael have to do with people that claim they were?

Also the first image says everything up to the sex was an accurate reflection of his experience with Michael, which is enough abhorrent shit to put his reputation in the gutter as is.[/QUOTE]

I was definitely wrong on my view of him, I thought the sexual allegations were the only abhorrent things about the man. This grown man toyed with, manipulated, and took advantage of the hopes, dreams, and innocents hearts of children all to fill some void within himself. There is no excusing or forgiving that

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I was definitely wrong on my view of him, I thought the sexual allegations were the only abhorrent things about the man. This grown man toyed with, manipulated, and took advantage of the hopes, dreams, and innocent hearts of children all to fill some void within himself. There is no excusing or forgiving that.

 

[Deleted member 26139]

What does people not having been molested by Michael have to do with people that claim they were?

Also the first image says everything up to the sex was an accurate reflection of his experience with Michael, which is enough abhorrent shit to put his reputation in the gutter as is.

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Should I refrain from posting information that goes against the narrative of the HBO film--the narrative that Jackson was a sex-addicted pedophile? Should this thread be as one-sided as that?

 

[Kyuuji]

Should I refrain from posting information that goes against the narrative of the HBO film--the narrative that Jackson was a sex-addicted pedophile? Should this thread be as one-sided as that?

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Where did I say any of that in my response?

 

[Deleted member 862]

Should I refrain from posting information that goes against the narrative of the HBO film--the narrative that Jackson was a sex-addicted pedophile? Should this thread be as one-sided as that?

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It's not a debate because they weren't there. Saying"I was raped" and then someone saying "well I knew Michael and he never raped he" aren't two sides of the same coin.

If anything the fact that other people recognise so much of the story from their own experience up to a point really lends it more credibility. Because grooming is so manipulative it probably all looked fine until it wasn't.

 

[Deleted member 26139]

It's not a debate because they weren't there.

Saying "I was raped" and then someone saying "well I knew Michael and he never raped he" aren't two sides of the same coin.

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Christ, these were close friends of Jackson (Frank Cascio also knew Wade Robson). They're saying that the person depicted in this shock doc doesn't match up with the person they knew personally for many years (in Frank's case his entire life).

I don't think I've seen a thread on this forum so openly hostile to the gathering of information.

 

[Deleted member 26139]

.

 

[Big One]

Christ, these were close friends of Jackson. Frank Cascio knew Wade Robson too. They're the person that's depicted in the shock doc doesn't match up with the person they knew personally for many years (in Frank's case his entire life).

I don't think I've seen a thread on this forum so openly hostile to the gathering of information.

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The issue isnt the information the issue is that you're using this information to "debunk" the claims if the victims in the documentary which it doesn't do.

 

[Deleted member 862]

Christ, these were close friends of Jackson. Frank Cascio knew Wade Robson too. They're the person that's depicted in the shock doc doesn't match up with the person they knew personally for many years (in Frank's case his entire life).

I don't think I've seen a thread on this forum so openly hostile to the gathering of information.

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I edited my post a bit to clarify but what I was trying to say is the fact they recognise the story from their own experience up to a point is classic signs of grooming. The fact they weren't assaulted doesn't prove that this guy wasn't. It's not like sex offenders are going around touching every kid they see until they get caught.

 

[Deleted member 26139]

The issue isnt the information the issue is that you're using this information to "debunk" the claims if the victims in the documentary which it doesn't do.

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It's information that provides additional context to the situation, however big or small it may be. If I don't post it nobody else will and this thread will just be a bubble.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

I know it's a lost cause, but Corey Feldman and Frank Cascio are offering up their 2 cents on social media.

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Even if the sex part is a lie, he was still an abuser. An emotional abusive deeply disturbed guy. Those faxes, the way he would change kids when he was bored. Asking to stay with a 7 year old for one year. The way he manipulated families, mother's clearly in love with his stage persona, etc. Corey literally says conversations about sex did happen. A man in his 30s who slept with preteens, besides all this I just mentioned is not normal.
Also..."it didn't happen to me so they are probably lying" is not an excuse.
If this were another man no one would defend this bullshit. Just reading those faxes is enough to make me uncomfortable. If someone is not...maybe you should actually talk to someone. I mean it.

 

[Seganomics]

Should I refrain from posting information that goes against the narrative of the HBO film--the narrative that Jackson was a sex-addicted pedophile? Should this thread be as one-sided as that?

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You think Ted Bundy never had character witnesses? You think he killed everyone he met?

It's information that provides additional context to this situation, however big or small it may be. If I don't post it nobody else likely will and a thread that's essentially a bubble.

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It's far from a bubble. Even on a progressive forum like this you have people defending a grown man that communicated and interacted with children in a way which would be considered extremely troubling to 99% of adults.

 

[Kyuuji]

Christ, these were close friends of Jackson. (Frank Cascio also knew Wade Robson). They're saying that the person depicted in this shock doc doesn't match up with the person they knew personally for many years (in Frank's case his entire life).

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One says that everything up to the sex part was accurate. That's some abhorrent shit.

"YES EVERY EXPERIENCE WAS THE SAME... RIGHT UP 2 THE SEX PART"

 

[Deleted member 26139]

All right, yeah, I think I'm done poking at the bubble for now. Enjoy yourselves.

 

[Shy]

Even if the sex part is a lie, he was still an abuser. An emotional abusive deeply disturbed guy. Those faxes, the way he would change kids when he was bored. Asking to stay with a 7 year old for one year. The way he manipulated families, mother's clearly in love with his stage persona, etc. Corey literally says conversations about sex did happen. A man in his 30s who slept with preteens, besides all this I just mentioned is not normal.
Also..."it didn't happen to me so they are probably lying" is not an excuse.
If this were another man no one would defend this bullshit. Just reading those faxes is enough to make me uncomfortable. If someone is not...maybe you should actually talk to someone. I mean it.

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I can't quote posts like this, and wonder why people can't understand this point. enough.

Thank you.

 

[Volimar]

I know it's a lost cause, but Corey Feldman and Frank Cascio are offering up their 2 cents on social media.

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I'm happy that nothing happened with these people, especially in light of what Feldman faced later, but I've always hated this as a defense. It's like when a man accused of rape has female friends who speak out about him never having raped them. Not trying to pass judgment here since I think they're doing this to defend someone who can't defend himself, but historically this kind of defense by proxy always bothered me.

 

[Shy]

All right, yeah, I think I'm done poking at the bubble for now. Enjoy yourselves.

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That's your takeaway from this, really ?

C'mon now. Don't be that way.

 

[Kyuuji]

That's your takeaway from this, really ?
C'mon now. Don't be that way.

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Read the below exchange. Dude has been posting questionable shit the entire thread.

Why let a minor detail get in the way of the perfectly normal occurrence of an adult man buying extravagant gifts to parents so that he can sleep in bed with their little boys.

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Jackson was showering everyone in his inner circle with gifts. Chris Tucker was a close friend of his and was getting free shit all the time. He'd walked into Neverland and come out with a new TV. The framing that Michael only gave gifts to parents and specifically so that he could sleep with their children is more disingenuous tabloid nonsense.

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Yeh, major difference between buying your close friend a new TV and buying strangers a house or diamond bracelet when your relation is you like to have sleepovers and spend time with their little boys.

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Again, everyone in his inner circle was receiving extravagant gifts. The man was overflowing with wealth.

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[Air]

I'm happy that nothing happened with these people, especially in light of what Feldman faced later, but I've always hated this as a defense. It's like when a man accused of rape has female friends who speak out about him never having raped them. Not trying to pass judgment here since I think they're doing this to defend someone who can't defend himself, but historically this kind of defense by proxy always bothered me.

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I think the context of this is a bit different though in that, if there are multiple of accounts contrary to what a specific situation ended up being, it doesn't wholesale debunk the claims, just make them less likely.

I'll try to watch both parts this week, but I do think it's important to have a critical eye about all of this. I already expressed my position going into this earlier in the thread, so my biases are out there

 

[Shy]

Read the below exchange. Dude has been posting questionable shit the entire thread.

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No no, i've been seeing those.

But to takeway that the rest of us is in a bubble because we're disagreeing. Is very silly.

 

[acheron_xl]

All right, yeah, I think I'm done poking at the bubble for now. Enjoy yourselves.

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I can think of worse things than being derisively lumped in with people that won't stick up for a dead child predator.

 

[Xx 720]

I just dont think anyone could watch, the second part in particular, and think all those people are making up. Also, glad they showed the Arvizo juror, they aquitted in that case - there was reasonable doubt/credibility esp. of the mother, but made it clear and said out loud they did think Jackson was a child molester.

 

[Solo]

Yeah, "Corey and Macauley weren't molested, therefore Michael is innocent!" doesnt have a leg to stand on. Michael was a calculating, dare I say cunning predator. Dont you think that is part of his grooming tactics? He clearly had a method whereby he slowly, subtlety gauged his victims' responsiveness and openness to his planned advances. All I get out of hearing Corey or Macauley say they weren't molested is that Michael made a judgment call that they wouldn't be controllable like Wade. Just listen to Wade and his family's whole description of their meeting of Michael, their time at Neverland, and afterwards. Michael had a clear, repeated pattern of escalation and isolation.

 

[Sphinx]

Yeah, "Corey and Macauley weren't molested, therefore Michael is innocent!" doesnt have a leg to stand on. Michael was a calculating, dare I say cunning predator. Dont you think that is part of his grooming tactics? He clearly had a method whereby he slowly, subtlety gauged his victims' responsiveness and openness to his planned advances. All I get out of hearing Corey or Macauley say they weren't molested is that Michael made a judgment call that they wouldn't be controllable like Wade. Just listen to Wade and his family's whole description of their meeting of Michael, their time at Neverland, and afterwards. Michael had a clear, repeated pattern of escalation and isolation.

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one serious question though, it seems like there were a ton of children and families around MJ in neverland, no to mention bodyguards and service personnel in the house 24/7.

Is there evidence Michael and Wade were at one point completely by themselves, just the 2 of them. be it sleeping in a bed or in any other context?

I find it hard to believe MJ would have had the chance to do these advances in a regular basis without raising suspicion from those around him.

if it was methodical, then he must have been with wade not once or twice but plenty of times in order to "instruct him". From what I gather, Wade claims it went from soft core to straight anal rape (as a gay man I can tell you anal sex isn't a 5 minute thing, you need tons of preparations and lube)... it takes a ton of privacy to reach that point.

how did that happen without anyone noticing?

where are the parents thinking, "hey where's my child???" at least once.

don't get my wrong, MJ is a liar (denying cosmetic surgeries and skin bleaching on Oprah's interview, millions of people being lied to their faces) but I have a hard time getting convinced by this guy that lied on court in the first place. specially because as fucked up as it is to sleep with minors, I always assumed there were at least 2 or 3 kids in that context sharing bed.

I mean, if that ever happened, MJ and one single kid in his bedroom with a closed door, as a parent, I'd be like "WHAT THE FUCK", regardless of what happens there.

maybe I just need to see the docu.

 

[Solo]

You definitely need to watch the documentary. Wade and his mother confirm that Wade slept in Michael's room when they were all there (the Robson family), and that they even went to San Francisco for 5 days without Wade, who they left alone won Michael at Neverland, which is when the abuse started. The mother is just as complicit in this as MJ.

 

[shaneo632]

Gonna need to have something light and funny to watch after this, 4 hours...Christ.

 

[Cocksman]

one serious question though, it seems like there were a ton of children and families around MJ in neverland, no to mention bodyguards and service personnel in the house 24/7.

Is there evidence Michael and Wade were at one point completely by themselves, just the 2 of them. be it sleeping in a bed or in any other context?

I find it hard to believe MJ would have had the chance to do these advances in a regular basis without raising suspicion from those around him.

if it was methodical, then he must have been with wade not once or twice but plenty of times in order to "instruct him". From what I gather, Wade claims it went from soft core to straight anal rape (as a gay man I can tell you anal sex isn't a 5 minute thing, you need tons of preparations and lube)... it takes a ton of privacy to reach that point.

how did that happen without anyone noticing?

where are the parents thinking, "hey where's my child???" at least once.

don't get my wrong, MJ is a liar (denying cosmetic surgeries and skin bleaching on Oprah's interview, millions of people being lied to their faces) but I have a hard time getting convinced by this guy that lied on court in the first place. specially because as fucked up as it is to sleep with minors, I always assumed there were at least 2 or 3 kids in that context sharing bed.

I mean, if that ever happened, MJ and one single kid in his bedroom with a closed door, as a parent, I'd be like "WHAT THE FUCK", regardless of what happens there.

maybe I just need to see the docu.

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The parents left Wade alone with Michael for days at a time...

 

[Deleted member 40853]

Wow that was really stunning to watch last night. I'm not sure how anyone can defend MJ at this point, even if he never touched those kids and they were both lying (they seemed pretty believable to me). What gets me is why no one ever thought it was a problem that a grown man just wanted to be friends with little boys. I guess in my head I always thought the kids who were his "friends" were always disadvantaged or terminally ill or something, not just little kids he wanted to hang out with. It's very disturbing watching the clips of him touring around the world always with some little boy in tow. Treating them like a girlfriend.

If some grown man wanted to be friends with your 7 year old son and have sleepovers, you wouldn't be telling yourself he's just a kid at heart. Making excuses for Michael is gross, even if he never laid a hand on those kids he severely abused them

 

[Cocksman]

The whole exchanging vows and wedding bands was enough for me. Fuck MJ. creep

 

[Deleted member 11370]

What does people not having been molested by Michael have to do with people that claim they were?

Also the first image says everything up to the sex was an accurate reflection of his experience with Michael, which is enough abhorrent shit to put his reputation in the gutter as is.

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Person 1: "Smoking causes cancer!"
Person 2: "Well, my grandfather smoked all his life and he's 90 and healthy! No cancer!"
Person 1: "Gee, golly! You're right! Your grandfather's personal experience completely invalidates any different claim!"

This is what these arguments sound to me.

 

[Laserdisk]

is there a detailed summary of what is this people's evidence somewhere online??

as someone in Europe and no HBO, i don't think I'll ever see it.

the docu does seem to be turning people "on the fence" against MJ so it must have a very very strong case.

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I am not on his side at all, but its a well made doc with some very shocking stuff.
You can paint the doc to say what you want it to say in editing/staging.
Before people jump on me, I am not saying this is staged or has an agenda, I have not seen it yet.
But lets not forget that many docs in the past have been very far from the truth.

 

[I Am Captain America]

I am not on his side at all, but its a well made doc with some very shocking stuff.
You can paint the doc to say what you want it to say in editing/staging.
Before people jump on me, I am not saying this is staged or has an agenda, I have not seen it yet.
But lets not forget that many docs in the past have been very far from the truth.

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There's no far from the truth he literally chose different children at different times to be around and left the others on the sideline from a promised life from there families...and this is the LEAST you can say about the documentary

 

[Aiii]

one serious question though, it seems like there were a ton of children and families around MJ in neverland, no to mention bodyguards and service personnel in the house 24/7.

Is there evidence Michael and Wade were at one point completely by themselves, just the 2 of them. be it sleeping in a bed or in any other context?

I find it hard to believe MJ would have had the chance to do these advances in a regular basis without raising suspicion from those around him.

if it was methodical, then he must have been with wade not once or twice but plenty of times in order to "instruct him". From what I gather, Wade claims it went from soft core to straight anal rape (as a gay man I can tell you anal sex isn't a 5 minute thing, you need tons of preparations and lube)... it takes a ton of privacy to reach that point.

how did that happen without anyone noticing?

where are the parents thinking, "hey where's my child???" at least once.

don't get my wrong, MJ is a liar (denying cosmetic surgeries and skin bleaching on Oprah's interview, millions of people being lied to their faces) but I have a hard time getting convinced by this guy that lied on court in the first place. specially because as fucked up as it is to sleep with minors, I always assumed there were at least 2 or 3 kids in that context sharing bed.

I mean, if that ever happened, MJ and one single kid in his bedroom with a closed door, as a parent, I'd be like "WHAT THE FUCK", regardless of what happens there.

maybe I just need to see the docu.

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You really need to see the documentary, because the grooming involved in both the kids and parents is pretty clear and makes it pretty obvious to how this worked.