• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

Leftist Youtube |OT| We Virtue Signal

Oct 26, 2017
9,125
UK
This whole beef between them is about a podcast where they debated whether it is ever okay to use N-word in a private settings. Destiny falled back on nuances (saying that it is okay to use it privately if it is in a satirical context, for example) and Hasan of course, does not believe that while refusing to say that he does not believe that when pushed on it. This is some heavily murky shit with tons of in-group references and beef obtained from previous discussions, so I would only advise this to people who have the free time and the strange lust for content like this: their "last?" debate
This is 100% bullshit by the way? You're just buying into Destiny's lies. Hasan literally said that there are maybe context in which white people could say it in private on video (with Trihex no less) before that. He also said that specifically the issue he had with Destiny on this topic, and the only reason he engaged with him, was because he was worrying he was undoing all the good he did by pushing this racist shit to his former alt-right fan-base.

However Destiny didn't want to engage on this level, in fact he's start screeching whenever he couldn't respond to Hasan which is more than apparent in that utterly embarrassing video you just posted. Then would fall back on the idea that there were context in which it's okay to say the word in private, finally screamed at Hasan until he said "Yes, maybe in very specific contexts" Then screeched against as though he had some kind of gotcha when that was always Hasan's stance. Also keep in mind that Destiny has multiple Twitch bans and messages in public discords because the context of him using racist/homophobic slurs is never more that slurs whilst he's pretending he's making jokes as the equivalent of the white Dave Chapple in private with his racist friends.

Anyway, please stop posting the videos of a known racist/homopobe here where he just makes himself look like a jackass. If you need to post him maybe do it from the other peoples channels?

Destiny's criticism of Hasan is that he is unwilling to follow his stated principles (or implied principles - he sometimes dodges restating them when Destiny asks) to their logical conclusion. E.g. he has no faith in state-sponsored law enforcement but retreats into a smoke screen when asked about what crime victims should do in plausible emergency situations.
This is also utter bullshit derived from when Hasan said he wouldn't call the police if PoC were loitering outside his house or that maybe it would be best for an undocumented immigrant to not call the cops if they're potential victims of crime because they may feel they'd be worse off if they're reported to ice. If you honestly think Destiny cares about nuance you're deluded, in multiple situations he's flipped out about Hasan wanting to have nuanced takes to complicated questions. This is the guy that thought the gamerbro should have been able to batter his wife for throwing cardboard near him and that the fast-food employees should have thrown the teens out of the establishment when another customer threatened them with a gun.

Destiny also attempts to use debate and philosophical terms to guise his dumbass views in front of an audience who aren't learned in debate or philosophy. He doesn't actually understand anything himself hence him looking like a fucking moron and arguing with a logic professor over what logic is whenever he debates somebody informed on the topic. Even Hasan clearly got the better of him in their last two 'debates' so he had to sulk off and write a bullshit 10,000 word manifesto on why racist white people can say the word and shouldn't be call racist where he utterly lies about people's claims and supports them with out of context clips.

He's 'winning' these debates in the same way Shapiro Wins his. Down to misrepresenting studies and stats in the podcasts Arnold was referring to. He does it all for views, he's nothing more than an enlightened-centrist grifter.
 
Last edited:

V_Arnold

Member
Oct 26, 2017
644
Hungary
Spirit of Jazz: I am watching debates between the TWO of them. I am not "buying" into any one side. (And I am also a subscriber of TYT AND I liked Hasan's Agitprop previously, so.....???)

I'm clearly talking about the video of the discussion they had.

Anyways, Destiny doesn't have any place in this thread. He is not on the left and has spent the last few weeks shitting as hard as he can on leftists.
Noted. However, I shall maintain my position that it does not help any political side to just blindly get into tribalism because it just devolves into shit like this.
 

Atrophis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
614
Notts, UK
No ones arguing for tribalism. I admitted a lefty embarrised themselves when debating Destiny. I just don't think the left have much to learn from a sociopathic grifter.
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Denver
I am not sure if anyone else is following the recent week's Destiny-related drama, but god damn, he is uncovering the same type of bullshit amongst leftist circles as he did with Jontron.

There is a group of self-proclaimed "leftists", who, when paired against him, are unable to vocalize their points properly, unable to make reasonable arguments and unable to follow a simple chain of reasoning. It is might-boggingly insane. Just watching this last video without any context should suffice to see what kind of content this is:


To get to the "start" of this, for example, you should start with this:


Which created this reaction - in which Peter actually just LEAVES in about 20 minutes after conceding on every single point, and just not owning up to what he did:


In comparison, THIS is when he argues with someone who does not have any ulterior motive of deplatforming/"destroying" him:


There is a LOT more about this, but I know this topic is not so hot with Destiny as he was banned from here. I do not agree with him politically on capitalism's current state of affairs and on the solutions, but leftitst need to drop this lowkey antiintellectual bullshit and start with actual arguments instead of attacking him on a personal level.
Peter Coffin is a satirist who makes youtube videos about popular culture, while Michael Albert is an economist who wrote a book called "Life after Capitalism". Of course Michael Albert is going to be better at answering questions about life after capitalism.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,125
UK
Spirit of Jazz: I am watching debates between the TWO of them. I am not "buying" into any one side. (And I am also a subscriber of TYT AND I liked Hasan's Agitprop previously, so.....???)
You made a post of multiple videos devoted to Destiny DESTROYING the left. By which I mean you signal boosted him by posting a bunch of his videos. I tried to put together a (relatively) in depth post about how you're buying into his grift in regards to one specific person because I know both sides pretty well in that one specific case. Instead of refuting any of what I said you say you're not "buying" into one side despite literally saying " Well, then the exposition chain goes infinite cause he exposed the shallowness of Peter Coffin and Hasan too." Hence my post specifically pointed out how shallow Desiny's approach was to nuance, how he had to shift the goalposts, and how you're ultimately defending a white racist guy who's major contribution to internet gamerbros over the last month has been him crying about how he should be able to say a slur towards black people.

It's also worth noting Hasan's core view on the issue is that people shouldn't say it for obvious reasons for empathy. But after Destiny baited to black guys into getting upset over it to make them look 'emotional' whilst calling a black man with a degree in sociology who's career is to write on black issues that he was too uneducated to speak on the topic on if white people should get to say racist slurs. Hence he went in from the angle of the harm Destiny's doing by saying it's okay due to who he is and the community he specifically built, then rather than engage at all on that level Destiny tried some kind of pathetic gotcha because he wanted a yes/no answer to a nuanced question which Hasan had already spoke about previously.

This is after months of Destiny trying to shit on leftist policy/literature without reading or understanding any or it with hugely embarrassing takes. He does a little better in internet "debate" formats because of his rhetoric, his ability to google and talk at the same time, and the fact his opponents aren't anywhere near as experienced at it.

Anyway, with all that said, if you don't think white people should be able to say slurs in private you probably shouldn't be advertising that shit.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,473
a sunken pirate ship
This is after months of Destiny trying to shit on leftist policy/literature without reading or understanding any or it with hugely embarrassing takes.
Yeah this is why I'm so confused by it. I don't dare question that Destiny shooting his mouth off is harmful for the culture, but similarly he doesn't possess any insight over any of the many other "debate me" grifters that have popped up online over the years, so it's weird to single him out as a thought leader in any respect. His biggest claim to fame is being able to talk quickly (because it's not like he's particularly well-informed, as you note), though his, uh, vulcan-like emotional restraint is notable too I guess.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,125
UK
Yeah this is why I'm so confused by it. I don't dare question that Destiny shooting his mouth off is harmful for the culture, but similarly he doesn't possess any insight over any of the many other "debate me" grifters that have popped up online over the years, so it's weird to single him out as a thought leader in any respect. His biggest claim to fame is being able to talk quickly (because it's not like he's particularly well-informed, as you note), though his, uh, vulcan-like emotional restraint is notable too I guess.
I think at this point he just fills the void of there not being an anti-PC voice who doesn't believe in eugenics, climate change denial, or enforced monogamy. Otherwise t's not a vulcan-like emotion, it's a lack of empathy. Destiny will scream and get utterly tilted in just about every debate he has. He's one of the most emotional 'debaters' out there.
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Denver
I agree with him, but even I was getting annoyed by how unfair I felt he was being by solely talking about how cool and right Rick is, and not mentioning how nearly every character on the show hates him and he's lonely and depressed because of it. He does talk about it 15 minutes in, where he rightfully calls it out as portrayed as a heroes sacrifice and a flaw of everyone else for not being as smart as Rick, but I feel it deserves a little more attention.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Oct 26, 2017
644
Hungary
You made a post of multiple videos devoted to Destiny DESTROYING the left. By which I mean you signal boosted him by posting a bunch of his videos. I tried to put together a (relatively) in depth post about how you're buying into his grift in regards to one specific person because I know both sides pretty well in that one specific case. Instead of refuting any of what I said you say you're not "buying" into one side despite literally saying " Well, then the exposition chain goes infinite cause he exposed the shallowness of Peter Coffin and Hasan too." Hence my post specifically pointed out how shallow Desiny's approach was to nuance, how he had to shift the goalposts, and how you're ultimately defending a white racist guy who's major contribution to internet gamerbros over the last month has been him crying about how he should be able to say a slur towards black people.
You know, it almost feels like I'm suddenly signal boosting a 'white racist guy' and want to defend his passion for saying the N-word in private. Almost feels like you do not actually watch any of this , because I find it hard to get away with this characterisation, but the further I try to explain, the more I will be branded a racist-defender, so just fuck it. My point is that Destiny can easily be handled via proper arguments, hence people posting (including myself!) videos about him straight up losing debates where his opponents are prepared and he is not. But then again: Destiny just had a video chat with Pxie and they pretty much agreed that in the vast majority of contexts, there is no justification for saying the N-word, even in private. How is that for 'internet gamerbros over the last month has been him crying about how he should be able to say a slur towards black people.'?

It's also worth noting Hasan's core view on the issue is that people shouldn't say it for obvious reasons for empathy. But after Destiny baited to black guys into getting upset over it to make them look 'emotional' whilst calling a black man with a degree in sociology who's career is to write on black issues that he was too uneducated to speak on the topic on if white people should get to say racist slurs. Hence he went in from the angle of the harm Destiny's doing by saying it's okay due to who he is and the community he specifically built, then rather than engage at all on that level Destiny tried some kind of pathetic gotcha because he wanted a yes/no answer to a nuanced question which Hasan had already spoke about previously.
I disagree with the characterisation that you attribute to Destiny, he is not the type to schemingly "bait" people over, with him, what you see is what you get, he is pretty upfront about it. I have a feeling that you watch more Hasan-streams where he frames it like this, and not Destiny, while the actual fights between them are clear and visible, in public videos, everyone can decide if this is what happened.

This is after months of Destiny trying to shit on leftist policy/literature without reading or understanding any or it with hugely embarrassing takes. He does a little better in internet "debate" formats because of his rhetoric, his ability to google and talk at the same time, and the fact his opponents aren't anywhere near as experienced at it.
I completely agree with you, he has repeatedly made a fool of himself with these debates. But I will not concede to him being labeled a racist gamerbro, because if we go with that, we might as well throw nuance out. Destiny has improved a lot on social issues and behaviors, his journey is publicly visible. He is not a leftist, that much is clear, and he has some remnants that are very hard to defend. Its fine to dislike him, to ignore him, even to hate him, but its not as clear-cut as some make it to be. Thought-slime's video on him explain it better than I could:
 
Last edited:

Kilrogg

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,801
So, I didn't want to derail the Contrapoints thread with this because that thread, I feel, should be mostly devoted to fair criticism of Contra's recent controversy and all the statements around it; plus actual trans/nb people in that thread are already doing a fantastic job pushing against the more dismissive takes. I don't have anything to add to that conversation at this point, and I don't feel like it's my place to give an original, pertinent take on all this since I'm cishet.

With that said, the recent events with her and other leftist/progressive YouTubers like Lindsay Ellis give us the opportunity to have another conversation, which is right-wing 'infiltrators' trying to create or stir conflict among our ranks. The Disney/James Gunn affair was one such example. And it's important to note that this conversation should run parallel, not counter to the legitimate criticism that has been leveled at prominent LeftTubers. Both conversations can be had without one becoming a bad faith defense against the other. In other words, going "how dare you criticize <insert LeftTuber> when they have to endure so much shit from harassers" or "why are you trying to cancel them" shouldn't be your response when someone fairly criticizes said LeftTuber and is simply asking them to be more thoughtful and put more care in their apologies. You can, instead, acknowledge the fuck-ups of those people, be disappointed, express frustration at how they're handling things, and realize that most people want nothing more than to move on and let these personalities learn from their mistakes and grow while also acknowledging that there are actual bad faith actors in our midst who parade, sometimes very subtly and successfully, as allies. And I doubt Era is exempt of this, especially given how this forum came to be.

Anyway, my point is, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and we should also talk about infiltrators. Since I'm not eloquent on the subject and my Twitter game sucks, I'll let this Twitter thread do the talking. What do you think?

 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,833
Will fully admit to never having watched a second of destiny content outside of others' videos, and hearing about his heated gaming moments, but here's thought slime's video on him from a couple months back I enjoyed

 

V_Arnold

Member
Oct 26, 2017
644
Hungary
Kilrogg: yep, this was a long, good read indeed. Its a bit scary, to be honest. Cancel culture exists precisely because communities put these people on pedestal and when someone transcends from a human being to this semi-god status where they can do no mistake, and then mistakes are made and revealed, the backlash is just too large. That is towards the left-tube incidents. On just infighting and cancelling each other, I can say this: its natural that people make mistakes and have socially harmful views. What matters if one is moving towards the less harmful direction or not, mostly. But that is not a too hot take so I probably wont make a video out of it :P
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
2,941
So, I didn't want to derail the Contrapoints thread with this because that thread, I feel, should be mostly devoted to fair criticism of Contra's recent controversy and all the statements around it; plus actual trans/nb people in that thread are already doing a fantastic job pushing against the more dismissive takes. I don't have anything to add to that conversation at this point, and I don't feel like it's my place to give an original, pertinent take on all this since I'm cishet.

With that said, the recent events with her and other leftist/progressive YouTubers like Lindsay Ellis give us the opportunity to have another conversation, which is right-wing 'infiltrators' trying to create or stir conflict among our ranks. The Disney/James Gunn affair was one such example. And it's important to note that this conversation should run parallel, not counter to the legitimate criticism that has been leveled at prominent LeftTubers. Both conversations can be had without one becoming a bad faith defense against the other. In other words, going "how dare you criticize <insert LeftTuber> when they have to endure so much shit from harassers" or "why are you trying to cancel them" shouldn't be your response when someone fairly criticizes said LeftTuber and is simply asking them to be more thoughtful and put more care in their apologies. You can, instead, acknowledge the fuck-ups of those people, be disappointed, express frustration at how they're handling things, and realize that most people want nothing more than to move on and let these personalities learn from their mistakes and grow while also acknowledging that there are actual bad faith actors in our midst who parade, sometimes very subtly and successfully, as allies. And I doubt Era is exempt of this, especially given how this forum came to be.

Anyway, my point is, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and we should also talk about infiltrators. Since I'm not eloquent on the subject and my Twitter game sucks, I'll let this Twitter thread do the talking. What do you think?

That's some real-life mafia shit. And something that will be a huge issue coming forward.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
Kilrogg: yep, this was a long, good read indeed. Its a bit scary, to be honest. Cancel culture exists precisely because communities put these people on pedestal and when someone transcends from a human being to this semi-god status where they can do no mistake, and then mistakes are made and revealed, the backlash is just too large. That is towards the left-tube incidents. On just infighting and cancelling each other, I can say this: its natural that people make mistakes and have socially harmful views. What matters if one is moving towards the less harmful direction or not, mostly. But that is not a too hot take so I probably wont make a video out of it :P
It honestly seems like you completely missed the point of the post you are talking about.

You seem to have taken away that its about cancel culture and the audiences/fame problem when the post was about the right infiltrating left wing communities to help increase the backlash against any left wing person that does something wrong.

The ones being extreme and taking it far either have serious issues or are bad faith actors pretending to care about the subject matter when in reality they are just using the chance to cause division within the community.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Oct 26, 2017
644
Hungary
It honestly seems like you completely missed the point of the post you are talking about.

You seem to have taken away that its about cancel culture and the audiences/fame problem when the post was about the right infiltrating left wing communities to help increase the backlash against any left wing person that does something wrong.

The ones being extreme and taking it far either have serious issues or are bad faith actors pretending to care about the subject matter when in reality they are just using the chance to cause division within the community.
Hm, so the point might be that actually there is no cancel culture? Or that its effect is greatly exagarated AND helped by bad faith actors? I can easily imagine this being the case, since this is the exact same tactic that was used with the feminist strawman and the "SJW" concept in the past. And surprise: right-wingers did that too. And centrists have eaten it up -.-
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
Hm, so the point might be that actually there is no cancel culture? Or that its effect is greatly exagarated AND helped by bad faith actors? I can easily imagine this being the case, since this is the exact same tactic that was used with the feminist strawman and the "SJW" concept in the past. And surprise: right-wingers did that too. And centrists have eaten it up -.-
Cancel culture isnt a real thing and is just a thing called consequences.

Someone does something shit, people come out and say "Hey, that is really shitty" and the person can either genuinely and thoughtfully apologise and try to make amends or instead ignore it, double down or give some clearly bullshit fake apology at which point people will decide that the person isnt worth it and stop engaging with them and their work.

What CaseyExplosion (the tweet in the post you mentioned) was that you get right wing/alt-right people join in and take things to the extreme to paint the entire community as being as bad as them.

Of course some people who dox/threaten etc. may not be secret right wingers but the important thing is that 99% of people who respond to someone doing something shitty are fine and many have very well, thought out responses that are presented fine but the right wing and clueless liberal centrists will focus completely on the 1% who are bad and act like its 100% doing this and use it as an excuse to say the initial problem people had was nothing and isnt a real problem.

This is the problem with the Contrapoints situation, 99% of people are being fine with their fair responses but because of the 1% Natalie, Lindsey and to an extent Ollie are acting like the total 100% are being gamergate style nazis.
 

Dan-o

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,138
I've enjoyed some of Destiny's latest discussions with leftists precisely because some of them have been able to put him in his place (like Michael Albert, a man who had way too much patience for Destiny's BS and disrespect during a live discussion on someone else's channel). I feel like Mr. Albert was arguing for the same things NonCompete was, but did it in a much more structured and convincing manner.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,125
UK
Okay, this is going to be my last post on this. I feel like you're talking over me in that I'll point out specific things that happen in a conversation then you'll come back at me saying "Well, everybody can watch and see how Destiny won..." I also don't like talking about this and shouldn't have said anything in the first place, but at the same time I think you're really misrepresenting Destiny so I guess here I am.

You know, it almost feels like I'm suddenly signal boosting a 'white racist guy' and want to defend his passion for saying the N-word in private. Almost feels like you do not actually watch any of this , because I find it hard to get away with this characterisation, but the further I try to explain, the more I will be branded a racist-defender, so just fuck it.
I might be wrong but I think you've already been criticised for posting his videoes in this thread, yes you're still doing it, hence signal boasting. I don't have a lot of love for leftist Youtubers right now but I don't think Destiny's bullshit debates are a valid criticism of them nor does he ever actually their opinions look shallow as much as their expertise is actually reading theory, analysing history, and distributing in videoes where as Destiny's expertise is in useless internet bloodsport debates. Also you're defending someones who's racist, so yeah.

My point is that Destiny can easily be handled via proper arguments, hence people posting (including myself!) videos about him straight up losing debates where his opponents are prepared and he is not.
I don't know if that was your point? Your original post seemed to be that Destiny DESTROYED online leftists and he was capable of having good debates with people like Michael Albert (rather than pointing out Destiny was himself DESTROYED). When somebody pointed out he got embarrassed by Ben your response was "We'll Destiny destroyed all these other people!". Reference Peter "in which Peter actually just LEAVES in about 20 minutes after conceding on every single point" then reference a Hasan video as another example of a dunk where Destiny's good faith argument is 20 minutes of ignoring Hasan's points about how there's not difference to using slurs in private and public or how because of who he is and his audience are it creates problems, and instead SCREAMS and LEAVES when he thinks he gets a gotcha he wanted based on a minute long out of context clip that was so bad it was debunked if you saw the 30 seconds before it was taken.

You also miss out there's a huge difference between Destiny discussing drama like him being racists with people whilst framing it with a conspiracy theory of people trying to cancel him (nobody you referenced tried to cancel him, they were calling out bad/harmful takes) and Destiny debating leftist politics with people where he'll pull out such gems as the Vietnam War not playing a role in Vietnam's development because might makes right or the fact he can't even explain why slavery's morally wrong because of his surface level understanding.

But then again: Destiny just had a video chat with Pxie and they pretty much agreed that in the vast majority of contexts, there is no justification for saying the N-word, even in private. How is that for 'internet gamerbros over the last month has been him crying about how he should be able to say a slur towards black people.'?
This is a great example of Destiny's grift. He'll say different things to different people depending on what's the best way for him to farm content or try and salvage his image. Hasan said this in their left talk, Destiny's response was along the lines of "Well, I want an exact mathematical formula when it could potentially be appropriate to say a slur!" The difference being Hasan wanting a good faith conversation because he was concerned about what Destiny was doing whilst Destiny just wanted a gotcha so he could keep on lying and misrepresenting Hasan. Shit he'd been doing blatantly since calling TYT tankie propagandist (lol) and the ACAB shit you brought up early because for some reason you thought Destiny had a grounded opinion there.

Consider that Destiny's constantly been shifting the goalpost on this topic and is utterly dishonest about it a rough timeline of his view has been.

I'm not your friendly neighbourhood leftist > If my logs leaked the stuff in there's so terrible I'd be blacklisted from everything > Saying slurs is okay in private, clearly this is morally true because I'm too afraid to say them in front of my non-racist friends > Oh, my black internet friend is upset now I've told him I hold this position, best not empathise and double down by debating him > Oh... things are getting serious... I only use slurs in funny jokes with the accuracy and racial awareness of a white Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle (Just don't ask me to say any of these jokes publicly or point out that I've been saying for years that Dave Chappelle and Chris stopped telling those jokes because of how it normalised racism in white people) > Oh yes, I believe there are some specific context in which some specific white people can say slurs (please don't bring up my historical use of slurs or the other arguments or the fact I would only accept a yes/no answer on if white people could say slurs a week ago)

I disagree with the characterisation that you attribute to Destiny, he is not the type to schemingly "bait" people over, with him, what you see is what you get, he is pretty upfront about it. I have a feeling that you watch more Hasan-streams where he frames it like this, and not Destiny, while the actual fights between them are clear and visible, in public videos, everyone can decide if this is what happened.
Okay, but I pointed out specific baits. For example when he got a black man emotion because he love to say slurs then starts to point out their too emotional to handle the debate objectively to get the racist audience and 'neutral' moderator. As if there's not a valid reason why a black man might get very pissed at a white guy who's claiming there's nothing wrong with of him using a historically horrific slur. Then when Hasan jumps in because he's family with Destiny's shtick and what was happening Destiny later goes on to try and sincerely claim Hasan thinks black people are too stupid to debate the topic, after Destiny himself literally said a educated black man was too uneducated to talk about the topic.

For "what you see is what you get" Destiny's been so hypocritical over the last month that it's hard to know where to start. From him claiming he's more left than most American's when he has ignorant and uniformed views on policies like Medicare for All, to him claiming people are trying to cancel him when they just want to talk about the problematic shit he does, to him claiming to be informed on electoral politics whilst not even knowing Florida's a swing state, to him saying Ilhan Omar was antisemitic due to comments made long ago in a moment of passion which she's sincerely apologised for ever since whilst when logs leak of him recently saying Jewish genocide jokes he respond to it with "Well, Jews aren't a targeted minority in this day and age" then tries to deflect with preformative wokeness "Well, the real issue here is I said something abelist"

I completely agree with you, he has repeatedly made a fool of himself with these debates. But I will not concede to him being labeled a racist gamerbro, because if we go with that, we might as well throw nuance out.
Sure, this is how people justify defending problematic people they like in the worst possible way. It's also funny to see you go back to nuance, you've kinda thrown it all out in our conversation so far for generalisations yet still use it as a shield.

Destiny has improved a lot on social issues and behaviors, his journey is publicly visible. He is not a leftist, that much is clear, and he has some remnants that are very hard to defend. Its fine to dislike him, to ignore him, even to hate him, but its not as clear-cut as some make it to be. Thought-slime's video on him explain it better than I could:
I think it's pretty clear cut when you match his history with what he's saying now. I think it's pretty clear you want to defend Destiny's action whilst simultaneously pointing to things like Slime's video as a defence that you're not blindly defending him when it doesn't support anything you've said, I think if you sincerely thought Destiny was DESTROYED in any of the debates you'd stop watching him unless he changed his perception of topics and you won't, I also think he's not worth talking about so I'm going to stop.[/QUOTE]
 

Kilrogg

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,801
Dirtyshubb thank you. Yes, that's my understanding as well. I had a weird feeling reading V_Arnold's reply to Casey's Twitter thread, and you put it best.

What's extremely pernicious about all this is that it doesn't take multiple dogpiles to muddy the waters, create a false narrative of "cancel culture" / "the left eats itself" and make these public figures defensive and partially blind to the fair criticism. These people receive responses in the hundreds on multiple platforms, so all it takes a couple dozen really aggressive for the negativity to stand out and make them throw their hands in the air - even though they shouldn't. I suspect that these bad faith actors know this all too well, which is why they use this strategy in the first place. As Caseyexplosion puts it in her Twitter thread, the knowledge of there being bad faith actors makes it even harder for the personalities to sort through the bullshit and address legitimate criticism properly; instead, they double down on their bad takes or offer milquetoast responses because they feel threatened.

(It's still no excuse for the poor reactions of these big LeftTubers to the fair backlash though; I'm still baffled at the inability of so many famous people to properly apologize for their fuck-ups, and LeftTubers are no exception)
 

V_Arnold

Member
Oct 26, 2017
644
Hungary
Spirit of Jazz thank you for taking the time to post a detailed reply like that. I understand your position better now, and will have to concede on some of it. Lets just leave it at that. I will not post further videos from him.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
2,941
I've been staying out of that thread since I have no business of discussing the topic of nonbinary people, but it didn't make me any less disappointed with Contra, Lindsey and Ollie's handling of the situation. I would have thought that for someone who's such an advocate of post modernism would have a greater sense of handling fair criticism. That criticism didn't need to be escalated as a threat of being canceled.

That said... it's still depressing. I was hoping infighting wouldn't happen until after Trump gets kicked out, yet it didn't even last that long.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
I've been staying out of that thread since I have no business of discussing the topic of nonbinary people, but it didn't make me any less disappointed with Contra, Lindsey and Ollie's handling of the situation. I would have thought that for someone who's such an advocate of post modernism would have a greater sense of handling fair criticism. That criticism didn't need to be escalated as a threat of being canceled.

That said... it's still depressing. I was hoping infighting wouldn't happen until after Trump gets kicked out, yet it didn't even last that long.
Instead of seeing it as infighting, I would say its more about holding our side to higher standards than the right.

If someone on our 'side' does something shitty, we as the left who are meant to be progressive and inclusive need to call them out and correct them because otherwise we are just as bad as the right who allow people to say whatever they want if it helps their cause.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,491
So, I didn't want to derail the Contrapoints thread with this because that thread, I feel, should be mostly devoted to fair criticism of Contra's recent controversy and all the statements around it; plus actual trans/nb people in that thread are already doing a fantastic job pushing against the more dismissive takes. I don't have anything to add to that conversation at this point, and I don't feel like it's my place to give an original, pertinent take on all this since I'm cishet.

With that said, the recent events with her and other leftist/progressive YouTubers like Lindsay Ellis give us the opportunity to have another conversation, which is right-wing 'infiltrators' trying to create or stir conflict among our ranks. The Disney/James Gunn affair was one such example. And it's important to note that this conversation should run parallel, not counter to the legitimate criticism that has been leveled at prominent LeftTubers. Both conversations can be had without one becoming a bad faith defense against the other. In other words, going "how dare you criticize <insert LeftTuber> when they have to endure so much shit from harassers" or "why are you trying to cancel them" shouldn't be your response when someone fairly criticizes said LeftTuber and is simply asking them to be more thoughtful and put more care in their apologies. You can, instead, acknowledge the fuck-ups of those people, be disappointed, express frustration at how they're handling things, and realize that most people want nothing more than to move on and let these personalities learn from their mistakes and grow while also acknowledging that there are actual bad faith actors in our midst who parade, sometimes very subtly and successfully, as allies. And I doubt Era is exempt of this, especially given how this forum came to be.

Anyway, my point is, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive, and we should also talk about infiltrators. Since I'm not eloquent on the subject and my Twitter game sucks, I'll let this Twitter thread do the talking. What do you think?

You have no idea how many of these I've seen on neogaf back in 2016.

Accounts, dead for years (even decades in some cases!), suddenly wanting to talk how bad "American hegemony in NATO" is, whereas nobody actually in NATO for the sake of, I dunno, continued existence, would actually consider it bad, debatable or even a thing. The "right" version is easier to spot due to using SEO terms like SJW, MSM, that kind of shit. And yes, those meaningless terms are literally just there to able to track users and response, so basically watching whether people fall for the trap.
I feel that ERA is much better at detecting the small offenses ahead of them trying to derail genuine conversation, but at the same time, the posters themselves still fall for the "first shitpost" black hole of endless quoting while losing the actual thread. I try to avoid doing that myself (though not the shitposting part), because I see it as a quick and dirty way to derail genuine conversation before it has even begun.

And the amount of bots involved... pfff. As is having a decent conservation on the internet wasn't hard enough already, now you gotta deal with those too.

As far I can tell, Contrapoints made a bad call on a 'live and let live' mentality. But maybe this is also her semi-intentional 'I don't want to be your hero' thing. She's been saying that she doesn't want to be THE voice or only voice, and I think that's fair. Misguided perhaps, but reasonable. This action may be her wanting to get some space, if you will.

I also think 'calling out' Elen Degeneres over not wanting to hate Bush is unfair. She literally got fired on the spot from her Talkshow for coming out as gay and somehow she wouldn't know how bad living under a GOP president is? In my opinion, most of us trying to live by keeping our heads low and not spend every second hating everyone. So the idea of calling her out for lack of hate seems meanspirited to me.
(LastWeekTonight had a joke with it, and while I get it, it's still like.... when did it become a crime to try to be better than the people who hate you for existing?)
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,473
a sunken pirate ship
Yeah, cops get regular legal advisement training where they basically say "if you felt like shooting was the right thing in the exact moment you pulled the trigger the precedent is there that they can't convict you". Hence why all these cops say "this 12-year-old black kid with a foam sword made me fear for my life" and the juries agree that, yes, he was afraid and therefore the shooting was justified.
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Denver
Yeah, cops get regular legal advisement training where they basically say "if you felt like shooting was the right thing in the exact moment you pulled the trigger the precedent is there that they can't convict you". Hence why all these cops say "this 12-year-old black kid with a foam sword made me fear for my life" and the juries agree that, yes, he was afraid and therefore the shooting was justified.
No it's worse than that. They actively teach you that you should look for situations to pull the trigger and not hesitate to do so. I believe training is the primary reason for the "oops" shootings. Cops also suck because they'll uphold their authority by "suiciding" people and because they're ultimately tools just to protect the powerful and wealthy, but that's a different topic.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
This is amazing

Crowder making unintentional progressive propaganda
I posted this in the US poli thread since it seemed appropriate yet instantly got told I was sharing racist, nazi content and I think some probably thought I was being supportive of it. 😞

They also thought it named the professor a racist slur instead of it being Cenk from TYT.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,376
I posted this in the US poli thread since it seemed appropriate yet instantly got told I was sharing racist, nazi content and I think some probably thought I was being supportive of it. 😞

They also thought it named the professor a racist slur instead of it being Cenk from TYT.
To be fair I thought so too so did a lot of people on Twitter then people pointed out it's him and it looks like Cenk
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,780
I posted this in the US poli thread since it seemed appropriate yet instantly got told I was sharing racist, nazi content and I think some probably thought I was being supportive of it. 😞

They also thought it named the professor a racist slur instead of it being Cenk from TYT.
It’s definitely “Professor Cenk”

Crowder and Co are known on record to mispronounce his name as Chenk instead of Jenk.

I wonder if anyone has showed it to TYT yet?
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,351
Compared to most on Era I'm a fan of TYT and as a non US person I think he would do amazing in Congress.

The passion he would bring and the the way he would state things clearly and directly has the potential to shape discussions much more directly than many there. He would also be supporting the strength of the left wing, progressive message greatly.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,780
Cenk would definitely be an improvement over the current well known representation from California.

Pelosi, Harris, Feinstein... They’re going to love Cenk and no longer monopolizing “what the people of California want.” lol
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Denver
I find Cenk a little annoying because he focuses a bit too much on party politics, so probably a step up for TYT, and I’m sure whoever he’s running against is worse than him. So win/win really.