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Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
Hannibal had Mads Mikkelsen, so it wins by default. I was never bored while watching the show like I've been with Legion this season lol

I did like that ending. David: fuck it I'm a bad guy now

What a season
4Sh9SyS.png

Like I said, ya never know haha
 
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
So I really liked this episode, especially the Shadow King fight at the beginning, but man, this really highlighted how bad the characterization has been. I'm way more interested in David and Lenny then any of the other goobers, so instead of being torn when David turned I was like "Yeah, fuck it. Kill all these dudes. Why not?"

Also, Syd pulling some "We just want to help you" shit after nearly shooting him in the face earlier was kind of hilarious
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Everyone turning on David so hard, and even letting out the Shadow King, pretty much pushed me into the 'fuck 'em' side of things. Before this episode I didn't want David to turn bad but now I wouldn't mind seeing him murder the shit out of everyone.
 

Tagesreste

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
871
Nearly everything with the women this season was flat out awful and frankly pretty misogynistic. Syd's point of view from the get go has been completely nonsensical and impossible to track ("You left me!" holy shit no he didn't he was kidnapped why did Noah Hawley make you so dumb this season) and then in the end she gets raped; Melanie's storyline was fucking embarrassing; "Hey, remember Amy? No? Well, we're fridging her for David's character development!!".

And everyone trusting the Shadow King at the end was ??? Are they all under his spell or did they randomly decide they were cool with him? Because with the way Legion handles its characters, it could honestly be either.

Re: the season as a whole - some of the spectacle bits were neat but the rest? Nah
Yeah, I'm pretty done with this show.
 

metsallica

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,707
And everyone trusting the Shadow King at the end was ??? Are they all under his spell or did they randomly decide they were cool with him? Because with the way Legion handles its characters, it could honestly be either.
Gotta be Farouk playing the long game here. Syd's turn is predicated on his misinformation through Melanie. But with as muddled as this season has been, I'm also very ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least the beginning of the episode was fun.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Very bizarre and confounding season, and not always in a good way. So many things felt half-baked, like the Minotaur, Syd's episode, Cary & Kerry's relationship (which finally got interesting in the first half of the season), Ptonomy's Ghost in the Machine fate (which might have a cool payoff, but who knows anymore), Lenny's ever-changing motivations...

I do hope Season 3 is the final one, and they go hard villain on David. That mind roofie moment felt like a point of no return.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
Also, Syd pulling some "We just want to help you" shit after nearly shooting him in the face earlier was kind of hilarious

Even odder considering he just drugged and raped her, but w/e I guess

Everyone turning on David so hard

I feel like this becomes a lot easier to swallow when we finally admit to ourselves that none of them are actually friends to one another. Like straight up, the healthiest relationship on this show is the Loudermilks hilariously enough; a relationship where one has been living inside the other for decades.

Aside from them, they're all acquaintances at best, mainly there to help move the plot forward when necessary.

even letting out the Shadow King

I didn't fucking get this either. Why are they acting like he's a good guy now? If you want to rely on his help, do it after David has escaped. Or at the very least, disable his powers first if you want to use him to lure David into the trap...

Lenny's ever-changing motivations

Her and Oliver suffer from the same issue, in that we don't really know what the hell to make of their characters now due to all their varying identities and being under Farouk's control.

We're only just now kind of getting to know what Lenny is actually like, and even then her currently defining traits is that she's a junkie that's in love with David. Though I guess her erratic personality that we've seen since S1 was all her own, rather than it being Farouk. I guess...
 
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Oct 25, 2017
23,216
I didn't fucking get this either. Why are they acting like he's a good guy now? If you want to rely on his help, do it after David has escaped. Or at the very least, disable his powers first if you want to use him to lure David into the trap...

This was weird too. Like you were hunting this dude down at the beginning of the season and were pissed when you thought David was helping him, and then you let him just stroll in with his powers intact.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
This was weird too. Like you were hunting this dude down at the beginning of the season and were pissed when you thought David was helping him, and then you let him just stroll in with his powers intact.

Yea, all of a sudden now everyone's just completely obsessed with dealing with David, nothing else matters.

Did Farouk end up controlling them all? If that's the case, that should be made clearer, because we only saw him interact with Syd through a mouse proxy.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Nearly everything with the women this season was flat out awful and frankly pretty misogynistic. Syd's point of view from the get go has been completely nonsensical and impossible to track
Lenny and Carrie have been great.

Even odder considering he just drugged and raped her, but w/e I guess
I disagree that he did either. He erased the recent part of her memory that Melanie fucked with. There was no drugging.


Syd has been trash this whole season. She's an unlikable character who has also done some pretty heinous shit concerning her mother's boyfriend and her psychotic treatment of David. She's the one that belongs in a hospital with medication. I was really hoping David would kill her off. Here's hoping for next season.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
But he altered her mind to the point before Farouk altered her mind...

Wait, did I miss something? When did Farouk alter her mind? All we saw was him showing her all the shit David did. That's him attempting to manipulate her, not mind controlling her.

Even then, as Chuggernaut said, that wouldn't excuse anything, because David clearly didn't do what he did for altrustic reasons.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
It doesn't matter. David didn't know that. All David knew was that she stopped loving him so he altered her mind so she would forget she stopped loving him and then had sex with her.

Yeah, it's not that complicated. And it makes David's "I'm a good person, I deserve love," line really gross.
 
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
Wait, did I miss something? When did Farouk alter her mind? All we saw was him showing her all the shit David did. That's him attempting to manipulate her, not mind controlling her.

Even then, as Chuggernaut said, that wouldn't excuse anything, because David clearly didn't do what he did for altrustic reasons.

I was thinking this too, but thought I might of messed something. Yeah, Farouk just showing her stuff isn't altering her mind
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Wait, did I miss something? When did Farouk alter her mind? All we saw was him showing her all the shit David did. That's him attempting to manipulate her, not mind controlling her.

Even then, as Chuggernaut said, that wouldn't excuse anything, because David clearly didn't do what he did for altrustic reasons.
I think him reverting her mind was selfish as well but I don't believe what Melanie-Farouk showed her was completely real either
 

fade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
Wait, did I miss something? When did Farouk alter her mind? All we saw was him showing her all the shit David did. That's him attempting to manipulate her, not mind controlling her.

Even then, as Chuggernaut said, that wouldn't excuse anything, because David clearly didn't do what he did for altrustic reasons.

She literally gets pulled down a dark tub drain by a fishing hook and came out wanting to kill David. Wasn't this whole season's theme delusions? David states to her that he believes Farouk tricked her before he gets shot and her comeback was that David enjoyed killing even if he wasn't in control and that's somehow way worse then what Farouk has done? Farouk planted a delusion in her head through Melanie who was being mindfucked as well!

Granted David didn't do it for altruistic reasons but saying he drugged and raped her is a little strong. The whole premise of Farouk walking around free with no contraints at the end totally does not make sense unless he is pulling the strings on all of them. The narrator even says if there are 9 insane people the 10th sane person is seen as the crazy one.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
I was thinking this too, but thought I might of messed something. Yeah, Farouk just showing her stuff isn't altering her mind

Yea, this.

I think him reverting her mind was selfish as well but I don't believe what Melanie-Farouk showed her was completely real either

I think it's fine to criticize how quickly/easily Syd got manipulated considering how clearly off "Melanie" was, among other reasons. It's a criticism several of us were already making last week. Or to be skeptical regarding some of its veracity (like him smiling while killing the guards in S1), though stuff like the Oliver thing was obviously real.

But nonetheless, Farouk didn't alter her mind. There was nothing of Farouk's to revert back.

She literally gets pulled down a dark tub drain by a fishing hook and came out wanting to kill David.

Yea, because Farouk manipulated her....

He didn't control her mind, I don't understand what's so hard to get about this. It's not even like this is literally the first time she's harbored doubts about him.

Granted David didn't do it for altruistic reasons but saying he drugged and raped her is a little strong.

Syd fucking spelled it out for us lol

Even beforehand when she's looking in the mirror, she knew that something was clearly off.

The whole premise of Farouk walking around free with no contraints at the end totally does not make sense unless he is pulling the strings on all of them. The narrator even says if there are 9 insane people the 10th sane person is seen as the crazy one.

What does this even have to do with what David did? No one forced him to repress her memories. No one made him sleep with her under false pretenses.

This is not something that should be glossed over just because Farouk is also a villain.

And if you're implying that Farouk made her say what she said, that'd be frankly pretty gross on the show's part to pull something like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
She literally gets pulled down a dark tub drain by a fishing hook and came out wanting to kill David. Wasn't this whole season's theme delusions? David states to her that he believes Farouk tricked her before he gets shot and her comeback was that David enjoyed killing even if he wasn't in control and that's somehow way worse then what Farouk has done? Farouk planted a delusion in her head through Melanie who was being mindfucked as well!

Granted David didn't do it for altruistic reasons but saying he drugged and raped her is a little strong. The whole premise of Farouk walking around free with no contraints at the end totally does not make sense unless he is pulling the strings on all of them. The narrator even says if there are 9 insane people the 10th sane person is seen as the crazy one.

Syd getting convinced David was evil was clearly playing into the delusion them, yes, but he still didn't alter her mind like David did. Then trusting Farouk so easily is pretty out there too, but it still doesn't mean that Syd isn't right here. He altered her mind on a guess at best, and then slept with her when there was clearly something off about her. That's fucked up.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Well see next season. I finding it hard to believe that future Syd would come and initiate a make out session with David if he raped her. He was already doing what she said. She didn't need to do that and I don't think she would if she really believed that she was drugged and raped.

We will find out next season though. I'm excited for the adventures of Lenny and David. That was an awesome end scene of David breaking her out.


I'm also still wondering what that one episode of alternate Davids had to do with this season
 
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
Well see next season. I finding it hard to believe that future Syd would come and initiate a make out session with David if he raped her. He was already doing what she said. She didn't need to do that and I don't think she would if she really believed that she was drugged and raped.

We will find out next season though. I'm excited for the adventures of Lenny and David. That was an awesome end scene of David breaking her out.


I'm also still wondering what that one episode of alternate Davids had to do with this season

Future Syd is from a timeline where Farouk died and the events wouldn't of played out exactly the same. It's very possible David didn't do that in her timeline
 

CyrilFiggis

Member
Nov 3, 2017
939
Pennsylvania
Still wrapping my head around this season, and found myself thinking about multiple realities. The show established that multiple realities exist with that episode with all of the different Davids. Whats to say that the evil, world-ending David from "future Syd's" timeline isn't actually the same David from the normal timeline of the show? And are those other David's in the finale just projections, or are they actually other real Davids from alternate realities? Will we end up with a legion of Davids from different universes?

Also curious if all the other really weird shit is in David's head or was it actually there. Like the huge green pointing fingers in the sky, the pink tub stopper, and the odd, upside-down interrogation room seemingly floating in the sky.

Also wondering if Oliver doesn't still have an ace up his sleeve to be played in season 3. A few episodes back when he was riding with SK he straight up told him he was going to kill him, and that he's figured out when and how it has to happen. I hope that's not just a random thing that gets ignored.

And yeah, turning David into a rapist in the last episode was a bit sudden, and seems to just be a vehicle to drive home the fact that he's the villain now. It was still pretty easy to empathize with him even after the Oliver torture and everything else, but it felt wrong watching him to what he did to Syd.

I'll be on board for season 3, if for no other reason than I am a sucker for trippy visuals and weird shit. But I do hope there are more answers than questions. And fewer seemingly relevant and important things that just get swept under the rug (like Amy mentioning having dreams where she was one of Fukiyama's androids and the Oliver "I'm going to kill you" chat with SK).
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824

fade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
Yea, this.



I think it's fine to criticize how quickly/easily Syd got manipulated considering how clearly off "Melanie" was, among other reasons. It's a criticism several of us were already making last week. Or to be skeptical regarding some of its veracity (like him smiling while killing the guards in S1), though stuff like the Oliver thing was obviously real.

But nonetheless, Farouk didn't alter her mind. There was nothing of Farouk's to revert back.



Yea, because Farouk manipulated her....

He didn't control her mind, I don't understand what's so hard to get about this. It's not even like this is literally the first time she's harbored doubts about him.



Syd fucking spelled it out for us lol

Even beforehand when she's looking in the mirror, she knew that something was clearly off.



What does this even have to do with what David did? No one forced him to repress her memories. No one made him sleep with her under false pretenses.

This is not something that should be glossed over just because Farouk is also a villain.

And if you're implying that Farouk made her say what she said, that'd be frankly pretty gross on the show's part to pull something like that.

Yes Farouk did alter her mind. Getting pulled by a hook down a drain is an obvious metaphor for that. This whole idea that Farouk just convinces people through the gift of gab is ludicrous. Farouk's power and what makes him so dangerous is mind control/manipulation not being the most convincing trial attorney on earth. He uses his POWERS to manipulate people. The conversations we see are just a physical representation of that. Otherwise you are saying Syd trying to murder David was of her own free will. Shouldn't she be standing trial for attempted murder just as David did for what he did to Syd?

As for what Syd said at the trial they used a fucking rat whispering into Syd's ear while she slept as a metaphor of Farouk fucking with Syd's head. Can it get any more hit you on the head obvious than that? This was Farouks long con. Just like Davids grand plan with the tuning fork. After Farouk talked to Future Syd he came up with a plan to ensure he became the hero and David the villain which included him getting captured. ANY other scenario of Farouk walking around free at the end simply does not make sense. The betrayal of David's IMO wasn't removing the memory of her encounter with Farouk it's not telling her or the rest of the group what he did afterward.

EDIT:
Here is a good reddit thread explaining it way better than I can
https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/8qszj2/david_and_farouk_contrasting_powers/
 
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Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/legion-season-2-finale-noah-hawley-interview.html

Even the creator of the show makes it clear what happened here:

A snippet:

In his mind, it's a love story and it's going to end as a love story. Of course, watching it, it's a little creepy for us because we realize, "Hold on, this genre's not supposed to do that. We're not supposed to have our protagonist who, as she says, 'You drugged me and had sex with me.'"

I mean, look, it's controversial. I don't know what the conversation will be, but I think it's worth having the conversation about consent and about the fact that there is no justification for acting without another person's consent. And, as she said, "I'm the hero and you're just another villain." On some level, that's the story of the show. The question is, is there any redemption for him coming out of that? And where do we go next?
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Hopes for S3 sticking the landing fading...
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Season 3 needs to have more, well, story in their story and things need to develop at a faster pace. No more spending 3 episodes on something that doesn't actually move the story along any. No more subplots like the oil bird or the minotaur that ends up not going anywhere and feel like if you cut them out, you wouldn't miss a beat.

I don't think this season was bad but it was great like the first season and I think it's because it felt very unfocus.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Cut down on Syd. I couldn't stand when she called herself the hero. It was so out of left field and a title she doesn't deserve.

Am I missing something from her this season cause she's done absolutely nothing that makes her a good person. Lenny is at least sympathetic, has good scenes, is a flawed person with needs yet recognizes them enough to try and do the right thing.
 
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ody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,116
im just now starting the latest episode and wut lol this is funny but awesome?
 

Otherist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
873
England
So I really liked this episode, especially the Shadow King fight at the beginning, but man, this really highlighted how bad the characterization has been. I'm way more interested in David and Lenny then any of the other goobers, so instead of being torn when David turned I was like "Yeah, fuck it. Kill all these dudes. Why not?"

Oh lord, I feel bad about it but I relate. Not that I'm excited to cheer on a rapist or anything, but David and Lenny fucking up the world sounds more interesting to watch than anything else being offered here at the moment. Might come back for S3 on that basis.

Honestly the show didn't earn the David-finally-goes-bad development. This is what they should have spent all season carefully setting up, instead of wasting time on some of the utter bullshit we had earlier like that episode with the huge mind-chicken (that can apparently stab you IRL? man I don't even know what happened there) or all the pseudointellectual digressions.
Even better if they'd done what they seem to think they've done, which is secretly establishing his downfall from the start while tricking us into sharing David's delusion that he's mentally well - but pulling off that narrative sleight-of-hand would have required a fiendish intelligence that has, let's be honest, never been on display in this show. As soon as they started doing the whole "look how evil he really is! Drill!" an ep or two ago I knew it was going to wind up half-assed. Bah.

Also I can't help but feel like for a show that makes such a huge point of being about mental illness, its handling of mental illness has become messy as fuck. Although fartsy rhetoric about how "perhaps we are all Mad and it is the Mad ones who are sane, what is the true nature of Madness, etc etc etc" doesn't exactly flag up a real interest in the topic in the first place. The interpretation of David's illness in these last few episodes seems to veer between him being deluded in specific - even tantalisingly realistic - ways, and him just being all-encompassingly evil with a capital E which is not only less interesting but potentially even exploitative (worse since it feels increasingly like the sexual abuse was thrown in just to be "the point where he goes BAD!" rather than something given its necessary weight).

Frustrating. The bones of something good were here, but it never quite took shape.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
The beginning song that David sings is so perfect. I also really love the psychic battle that takes place during it.

I kind of want to rewatch the entire season. I'm still not of the opinion that Farouk didn't mind fuck that entire room.
 

Chuck Noblet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,090
Damn what a season finale. The full supervillain turn was expected but pretty wild to watch all the same. The fight with the shadow king was pretty rad, really liked the execution of it. Backing David into a corner and trapping him was kinda understandable but boy did they fuck up. He is so fucking powerful. Will be interesting to see where they go with season 3.


It is kinda weird that both Syd and David used their powers to have sex under false pretenses. I think Syd eventually understand it was wrong but she straight up let a dude go to jail after she assaulted her mom's boyfriend. David went full incel trying to make her love him again messing with her mind. Then when he started kissing her....yikes.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
That "crown" they gave the Shadow King was pretty sweet, tho. He should have been wearing it in his final scene.
 

Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,205
Haven't watched this last episode but not looking forward to it after reading the impressions.

Kinda messed up when watching this season. I watched up to the halfway point ages ago, and only just started it back up recently and when I did I started at the wrong episode!

I watched the whole "alternate David" episode and was confused at the end with his sister suddenly being killed and turned into that other lady. Then I saw the "previously on Legion" for the next episode that explained it in more detail and I was like "when did that happen!? Rewatching that episode it was really great, but I knew ahead of time" whose body is that?" which definitely spoiled it a lot.

Like a lot of people I love the direction and "look" of the show, but the plot and most of the characters have been super anemic. That Syd episode sticks out in my head where it's her life story over and over again, I feel like they showed a lot about her, but I didn't really learn much about her character, it just ended with them deciding to break up to be better fighters or whatever.
Reminds me of a few others shows I watch: Preacher (also super slowly paced, but the strength if the characters keeps me more interested than Preacher) and American Gods (didn't like this show much either in the end, super obvious where things were going, it just took the entire season to get there).
 
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b33r

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,013
I liked the finale, just hoping it pulls a mr. Robot and nails season 3. The set up was good, just way too much fat. If season 3 trims the fat and moves forward properly, it could be great.

I'll cross my fingers for now, because I feel like this season could have been cut in half and been better for it.
 

Luna V.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
284
Season 3 is really going to make or break how I view this show, I loved season 1 but I'm really frustrated at the way women were treated this season, capping off with that rape in the final episode, it's kind of bullshit.
 

Neverwinter27

Member
Dec 22, 2017
201
Bad move cornering an unstable omega level mutant like that, as now he has nothing left to lose. He lost Amy, Syd doesn't want him anymore, and everyone else except Lenny turned on him.

Also, was the other 2 Davids he was talking to like psychic manifestations of his Id and super ego personalities, with him being the ego?
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
Colombia
I feel like they were vying for a "turns out he really is crazy!" moment, but that, and how he snaps was not earned at all. And they've got the added issue of the other characters being under-developed as hell, so I don't know how they're expecting us to have any empathy with them, unless they want to push the angle that the others are the crazy ones. I'm not a demanding person when it comes to shows' quality, but even I'd call this episode serviceable only. I'm not very hopeful for S3.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
I appreciate a villain turn where the main character is not supposed to be relatable and we are not supposed to take his side. David has been becoming a despicable, but increasingly powerful mutant. It doesn't feel good, its not a show I root for but its so engrossing
 

Luna V.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
284
I appreciate a villain turn where the main character is not supposed to be relatable and we are not supposed to take his side. David has been becoming a despicable, but increasingly powerful mutant. It doesn't feel good, its not a show I root for but its so engrossing

I just don't think the show earned David's heel turn at all. I knew it was coming eventually, asnd I was looking forward to seeing him transition, I was just hoping for .... more. Also, less rape... which I don't have a problem with art tackling the subject, it just felt cheap here to me.

:/
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,017
That reminds me, I've seen it theorized that the timeskip/alternate reality or whatever from last week showed a pregnant Lenny? Some think that because she has her hand on her stomach in a way that kind of hints at it:

Ch18Lennypreg.jpg

It's kinda gross since it's incest, considering that Lenny's body is actually his sister's...