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Legion S2 |OT| The King is Back
- Thread starter Mariolee
- Start date
Honestly in that final confrontation I felt more on David's side than the others. Why do they just let the shadowking waltz around freely?
And not to lessen what David did to Syd, but to then lock him in a cage only helped to escalate the situation. It went directly against the whole "we just want to help you"
And not to lessen what David did to Syd, but to then lock him in a cage only helped to escalate the situation. It went directly against the whole "we just want to help you"
Farouk is a master manipulator to a point where even "us" the audience is manipulated. The "you drugged me and had sex with me" line was a good example. He's twisting the truth in order to make David look as bad as possible and get him executed.
If all the apples are bruised (everybody's brainwashed by Farouk) then it is the unbruised apple that is bad (David is the only one who's mind hasn't been messed with) .
IMO David didn't brainwash or drug Syd to have sex. I think he only suppressed the memories about him being the villain in the future. I thinks Syd's love was always there and the sex was just a consequence of that love.
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Pretty good finale for the most part. The last few episodes have been up or down for me, but I think this one largely worked and did a good job tying together a few disparate threads from over the season. The David/Farrouk Behind Blue Eyes fight is such an odd idea but somehow worked in its own strange way.
I think the main issue I have with the show, and I feel it was more pronounced this season than last, is that I just don't buy the David/Syd romance. There isn't very much to their relationship, they don't even spend a lot of time together all things considered, and it often feels like the show is just telling you they're in love than actually showing it. The previous episode suggested that maybe Syd and David are more in love with the idea of each other than actually each other, and I thought the finale was going to dig into that more, but then it just reverted back the other way. It also doesn't help that Dan Stevens has way more chemistry with Aubrey Plaza than he does with Rachel Keller.
I think the main issue I have with the show, and I feel it was more pronounced this season than last, is that I just don't buy the David/Syd romance. There isn't very much to their relationship, they don't even spend a lot of time together all things considered, and it often feels like the show is just telling you they're in love than actually showing it. The previous episode suggested that maybe Syd and David are more in love with the idea of each other than actually each other, and I thought the finale was going to dig into that more, but then it just reverted back the other way. It also doesn't help that Dan Stevens has way more chemistry with Aubrey Plaza than he does with Rachel Keller.
Farrouk is influencing them. David can hear the whispers of Farrouk's influence when he's trapped in the cage.
Okay, let's pretend for a second that the Farouk theory is correct, and David was completely in the right when he wiped her memory. No one forced David to come into Syds room when she told him she wanted to be alone. No one forced David to have sex with a clearly uncomfortable Syd after he knew he had messed with her mind. He choose to go do those things after he had screwed with her head. What David did was wrong. Full stop.
The memories about him being the villain in the future are true, though. It's not like Farrouk told Syd a lie or brainwashed her, and David is undoing the damage. He's deliberately altering her mind to hide the truth about him from her and return her to a state where she was in love with him and, consequently, in a position where she'd have sex with him.
I don't think David's train of thought was a linear "Alter Syd's mind" -> "Then have sex with Syd." But the latter doesn't happen without the former.
I don't think the "villain future" is set in stone. It's one of many possible futures. And it was Farrouk's manipulation that made that future more likely.
The last few episodes just about saved me from dropping out. I'm already excited for next season, bring on the absolute mind fuckery.
Finally got around to watching the last two episodes. Haven't read all the conversation over the past two weeks so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said.
Ugh this season is so disappointing. So much filler. So much wasted time. So many pointless conversations. Enough red herrings to open a fish market. It's literally impossible to sort out what's literal and what's metaphorical.
And I'm tired of the "you don't get it" or the "it's artistic expression" defenders. Half of this season is indistinguishable from gibberish. Maybe everything means something. But when every scene is cluttered with nonsense it might as well all just be shit thrown at the fan (e.g., the green balloon fingers that were littered through the first few episodes and then stopped appearing for no real reason).
Honestly, the show needed to cut out the alternate timeline episode entirely and then aggressively edit down to no more than 8 standard hour-length episodes (none of this 1:09 business). With some disciplined editing and additional crafting this could have turned out great instead of the mess we got.
On the plus side, the setup for season three is really good. And for all my complaining I'm sure I'll watch it.
Ugh this season is so disappointing. So much filler. So much wasted time. So many pointless conversations. Enough red herrings to open a fish market. It's literally impossible to sort out what's literal and what's metaphorical.
And I'm tired of the "you don't get it" or the "it's artistic expression" defenders. Half of this season is indistinguishable from gibberish. Maybe everything means something. But when every scene is cluttered with nonsense it might as well all just be shit thrown at the fan (e.g., the green balloon fingers that were littered through the first few episodes and then stopped appearing for no real reason).
Honestly, the show needed to cut out the alternate timeline episode entirely and then aggressively edit down to no more than 8 standard hour-length episodes (none of this 1:09 business). With some disciplined editing and additional crafting this could have turned out great instead of the mess we got.
On the plus side, the setup for season three is really good. And for all my complaining I'm sure I'll watch it.
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Very interesting to read the range of takes in here on what he did to Syd. If this was a news story there would be red ban bars all over the place.
I personally don't think it can be defended even though he is mentally ill, and thought he was doing it out of a feeling of love it doesn't make it any less wrong. I just don't think there are black and whites here, no easy heroes or villains. It's nuanced. I believe in his own twisted way, Farouk really loves David and wants to protect him, just like David's love for Syd comes from the wrong place of needing to be good enough to love. Even Syd has done things in her past in regards to consent and feels that she isn't this object for him to place on a pedestal.
I personally don't think it can be defended even though he is mentally ill, and thought he was doing it out of a feeling of love it doesn't make it any less wrong. I just don't think there are black and whites here, no easy heroes or villains. It's nuanced. I believe in his own twisted way, Farouk really loves David and wants to protect him, just like David's love for Syd comes from the wrong place of needing to be good enough to love. Even Syd has done things in her past in regards to consent and feels that she isn't this object for him to place on a pedestal.
I thought it was somewhat ambiguous if he was "controlling" her or if he just trying to suppress the memory of what Farouk had done. There's a difference between "I'm going to make her love me" and "she loved me until this other psychic messed with her head so I'm going to undo that." But then Syd very clearly stated that he had done something else. And in the end, maybe Farouk is right - and David literally doesn't know the difference between right and wrong and just did whatever would get him Syd back because he believes he deserves her.
Or who knows - because literally anything in this show can be retconned to be literally anything else because psychics and delusions so what's the point.
Or maybe the value of this moment of the show is in getting us to constructively discuss the nuance of human sexual behavior in a setting where no actual human being got hurt.
Or who knows - because literally anything in this show can be retconned to be literally anything else because psychics and delusions so what's the point.
Or maybe the value of this moment of the show is in getting us to constructively discuss the nuance of human sexual behavior in a setting where no actual human being got hurt.
The whole mind rape thing fell flat when it should have been a season defining moment. The show is too meandering, too unfocused, and to be honest, too up its own ass at this point. There are barely any characters and those that are there are one note outside of David and a few others. The best thing in this season was the Shadow King himself but they squandered him something fierce.
It was unquestionably an up-and-down season, arguably more down than up... But there's no doubt in my mind that they absolutely nailed the finale. This back-and-forth heated discussion about it and about season 3 further supports that notion.
Hopefully Noah Hawley & co hear some of these criticisms and we get a more tightly written season 3, while retaining the show's signature weirdness and experimental vibe.
Hopefully Noah Hawley & co hear some of these criticisms and we get a more tightly written season 3, while retaining the show's signature weirdness and experimental vibe.
I'd argue because not much else of note happened this season and as many people are calling out stupid shit like introducing the Minotaur for it mean and do absolutely nothing except get killed off screen by the worst martial artists character I've seen on TV in a while.
All of (most of?) the weird shit in season one was purposeful and was explained, either in the chalkboard scene or directly by Cary and Syd. I'd estimate that maybe 10-20% of the weird shit in this season meant anything.
It really didn't this whole move feels like the most contrived idiotic possible sequence of events. And the first confrontation with Syd is just the stupidest thing in the world, that's Son of Sam line is basura.
I guess it was a decent finale, but there have been so many manipulations that it's hard to tell who's actually acting of their own volition. If there's a season 3, I really don't need another season of people being mind controlled. It's like watching another season of Flash where there's another speedster as the villain. Change it up a bit.
This season was definitely a little too up its ass with the abstract stuff so I didn't enjoy it as much as the previous season, but the finale kept me interested. I hope they tone it down next season, just a bit at least.
Well, we'll see how that gets handled I guess lmao
Pretty much.
I liked the final but it really felt like they could have gotten there by episode 5 with the same impact, it needs far better pacing in season 2 and it would help if they had sub plots for the under developed characters to do something other than be pawns for david and the shadow king
This is exactly what happened. The show even tells this allegory to justify David's disposition. Plus, present-time Syd, prior to getting manipulated by Farouk, told David to not let that future happen. All signs point to David acting in good faith to prevent that timeline, as that is what he was trying to do by making Syd forget what Farouk told her when he was controlling Melanie's mind.
I loved this season but am pretty disturbed about the discussions around sex and consent in places like reddit and even here. Syd did not want to have Sex with David. Full stop. Wether it was because of a lie or not does not matter, it is her choice.
"David. You drugged me. And had sex with me." Those are her words David decided to manipulate her with his powers into having sex with him. This is the X-Men-Equivalent of putting a roofie in your ex-girlfriends drink to make her sleep with you. David raped Syd and the show makes that as clear as possible. There is a reason this is the exact point when David breaks down: Because he is utterly unable to accept that fact while also clinging to his notion of being the hero.
The way large parts of the community on Reddit are trying to paint Syd as the true, ultimate villian because she turned on David is seriously fucked up. This show deals in a lot of greys. Just because David isn't a hero doesn't suddenly turn the Shadow King into one or Syd into a perfect angel. But this? This is an area the show is decidedly clear on: David made Syd have Sex with him against her will. Syd calls out David for having made her have Sex with him against her will. And seeing people trying to argue how it actually wasn't rape because of David actually being the good guy is pretty fucking bad. Or, in the word of the show's creator:
"David. You drugged me. And had sex with me." Those are her words David decided to manipulate her with his powers into having sex with him. This is the X-Men-Equivalent of putting a roofie in your ex-girlfriends drink to make her sleep with you. David raped Syd and the show makes that as clear as possible. There is a reason this is the exact point when David breaks down: Because he is utterly unable to accept that fact while also clinging to his notion of being the hero.
The way large parts of the community on Reddit are trying to paint Syd as the true, ultimate villian because she turned on David is seriously fucked up. This show deals in a lot of greys. Just because David isn't a hero doesn't suddenly turn the Shadow King into one or Syd into a perfect angel. But this? This is an area the show is decidedly clear on: David made Syd have Sex with him against her will. Syd calls out David for having made her have Sex with him against her will. And seeing people trying to argue how it actually wasn't rape because of David actually being the good guy is pretty fucking bad. Or, in the word of the show's creator:
Yeah, I added that in later ;) Author's intent is a slippery slope when discussing art, but this is a case where even the piece of art itself makes it as clear as possible.
Until she explicitly said it, I didn't think that at all. Syd directly telling David that he raped her was a bit of a shock, and I had to recontexualize what happened earlier.
I know everyone here loves to shit on Reddit, but someone there made an interesting point that Farouk didn't use any of his powers to turn Syd against David (directly anyway - obviously he was controlling Melanie, but he just used words and ideas, not psychic manipulation on Syd). So David using his powers to wipe Syd's memory of that was not a tit-for-tat scenario - it wasn't like when he pulled the delusion babies from Syd et. al. earlier. Rewatching the scene I'm actually kind of upset that I missed it. Delusion, insanity, and psychic manipulation is generally (always?) accompanied with a visual metaphor in this show, but Syd was completely clean in the scene where she was threatening David. In other words, Syd was sane, and David fucked with her mind. I originally read it as David was erasing Farouk's influence, but on reflection that's not the appropriate reading.
I know everyone here loves to shit on Reddit, but someone there made an interesting point that Farouk didn't use any of his powers to turn Syd against David (directly anyway - obviously he was controlling Melanie, but he just used words and ideas, not psychic manipulation on Syd). So David using his powers to wipe Syd's memory of that was not a tit-for-tat scenario - it wasn't like when he pulled the delusion babies from Syd et. al. earlier. Rewatching the scene I'm actually kind of upset that I missed it. Delusion, insanity, and psychic manipulation is generally (always?) accompanied with a visual metaphor in this show, but Syd was completely clean in the scene where she was threatening David. In other words, Syd was sane, and David fucked with her mind. I originally read it as David was erasing Farouk's influence, but on reflection that's not the appropriate reading.
maybe you're tired of that because it's the truth. I'm gonna say you don't get it 'cause you suggested that they should have cut one of the best episodes. then with more "disciplined edit" and "additional crafting", whatever that means, this could have turned out great instead of the mess we got? Yeah you'd know how to make good tv I'm sure. Had a good laugh reading that
Noah Hawley made a phenomenal show and this season as well was phenomenal. I can agree that some episodes focused too much on things(ideas) or characters which ended up not mattering but the end result was still top-notch. Noah making Legion showed that superhero tv shows can be unique, masterfully directed and creatively amazing, compared to the boring uninteresting uninspired dull terribly-written dozens of other superheroe series out there. maybe shows like the flash are more your cup of tea, that's fine, but this season wasn't a mess in any imaginable way.
it's a bit sad, to be honest, that some people thought this season was a mess. to me it was a brilliant piece of television.
Oh god, here comes the condescensing posts again
Yea I brought that up last week in that Farouk didn't actually use his powers on her, just manipulated her normally. David just assumed that Farouk had done something, and acted in bad faith to basically try and "reset" his girlfriend to a point where she still likes him.
Exactly.
Yea I brought that up last week in that Farouk didn't actually use his powers on her, just manipulated her normally. David just assumed that Farouk had done something, and acted in bad faith to basically try and "reset" his girlfriend to a point where she still likes him.
Exactly.
I do enjoy the discussion though. Farouks is a monster of manipulation and showing things out of context is an easy way to convey your narrative and influence people.
He clearly did (whether you think he did it to force David out of his delusion or to pay him back, is another debate).
And of course he used his powers, showing things that he knew would break her, not showing everything, etc... even if he didn't use his powers to alter her mind directly. Manipulation is a real thing so she was still manipulated. When he showed her the future Syd kiss he knew exactly how she would feel. All of what he showed her were carefully chosen. Painting himself as a hero and David as a monster.
David took those memories out, but he never forced her to love him or forced her to have sex with him, he just took out the memories that Farouk showed her, she was "naturally" in love with him before that.
Keep in mind, that none of us, on earth, have "perfect thoughts". What's in our minds is ours, and ours only. It's not supposed to be seen by others. And the ability to not listen to some of the worst thoughts and make good decisions, is what makes us good people, or not. I can understand why he feels like it's wrong that she was shown this and wanted to simply go back to a more natural relationship state.
But the show is clearly painting his following actions as despicable, it was never "sweet" or justified and they did a good job showing he went too far and lost his moral compass.
I was on his side before he went to her room. After that I realized something was extremely wrong with David but I wasn't sure what was going on.
I think what he should have done, is simply explain to her what happened, not by giving her memories back, but by being truthful so she can look at the situation with new eyes, and not with the whole manipulation of Farouk. And then give her time and respect her decision.
But yeah David lost it and tried to rush things to go back to his convenient love story and it was unsettling.
I had never read or heard of the comics before so that twist of him having multiple personas / powers and being the ultimate villain was quite something.
I enjoyed the season because I binged it, so it was easier to see details and puzzle pieces have more sense (stuff I would never notice over the span of months). And the pacing was fine this way. I did go "make food" and stuff during a few episodes.
I do feel like the side characters have sucked hard, were badly used, and that some stories had 0 pay off for no reason. Still a good season overall and very excited for season 3. (I do think they should not focus on side characters each episode in season 3 to have a completely fresh set of stories for David, but keep them around for Syd I guess)
I wonder if Syd will become a bit more like Rogue in the future, since she is the "hero" now, feels like she could use some upgrades.
I mean, he did use his powers to show her chosen pieces of David's mind and memories to break her, while making her believe Farouk was a hero after all (which works out in his favor at the end since he was released and used his powers to influence them all). She literally tried to kill him. So I can see why David, who up to that point was absolutely trying to do the best he could, thought Farouk messed with her mind. Because he did.
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Oh and two things, his interactions with future Syd gave a lot away about the conclusion.
And Aubrey Plaza with blue eyes is a fucking abomination, this needs to go away. Just say she wears brown contact lenses to "forget" or something.
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Is it really that odd? Pull up the lyrics to the song. It's very appropriate.
Farouk showed her David's pleasure in violence and torture--his inability to set a limit on himself.
David's "best he could" was all in his own self interest. He lied, kept secrets, manipulated, abused and completely disregarded the feelings of Syd and the others. He's the future that Future Syd is trying to prevent.
And so, Farouk is alive.
We'll be seeing if her theory of keeping him alive helped at all in Season 3.
1) As I said, this isn't a clear cut situation when it comes to what David enjoys in his mind. He thought he was making Farouk pay, ignoring it was Oliver. And this torture was mental.
We all have ( or had ) dark fantasies that we would never ever act upon in real life, especially when it comes to people that hurt you. David is also unstable and his sister was just killed, condemning David for enjoying mentally torturing the monster that ruined his life seems harsh. Like there was no one else David wanted to hurt that badly it was just this guy, a literal monster. Syd is badly placed to judge him since she's done something similar.
2) the lies are tough because on one side it was about future Syd, who is absolutely still Syd.... again it's not clear cut. The show portrays it as kind of a cheating situation but... it literally is the same person so it s gray to me. He was trying to help and please both.
As for Lenny and Farouk, it's so hard to take stuff that happens in their mind encounters. For instance Farouk shows Syd that Lenny and David kissed. But in real life it's made very clear David doesn't see Lenny like that in any way. ( at least not till the very end after Syd betrayed him )
He was selfish but his goal was still saving Syd and the world. At the end of the day he was still trying to do the right thing. If we were to blame every person that's not 100% selfless I think we wouldn't have a lot of people left.
As to what happens in his mind, it's a fascinating aspect of this show. As humans, nobody can see what is inside our head and this is a safe haven, we are used to that. We dont behave the same way when no one is watching. To me what matters is if you're able to chase the bad thoughts and do the right thing.
If it's not 100% genuine it doesn't matter. Not many people are like that.
So I was still mostly on board with David until he crossed the line in the finale. I still think Farouk manipulated Syd by showing her chosen pieces of content that pushed his own narrative while being partly true. That's how good manipulation works. It felt like the undeniable truth while it lacked context.
Syd literally shot David and tried to murder him. I still think that was harsh. Like even after he actually did mess up badly they wanted to send him back to the mental institute. But what he had done prior to that justified murder ?
Farouk was alive which was proof the future could change. And worse, Legion spared future Syd. You would think she'd at least give him a chance to talk it out.
Yes David Raped Syd. Mind rape AND physical rape.
Fact: she would NOT have had sex with him any more, she didn't love him any more. It doesn't matter if in her altered state she chose to have sex with him out of love, that love wasn't real... it was an echo of something from her past, something she would not have chosen had David not made her forget.
I don't know why anyone would argue against this.
And sure, it was the SK who initially changed her mind about David, but only by showing her the truth.
Fact: she would NOT have had sex with him any more, she didn't love him any more. It doesn't matter if in her altered state she chose to have sex with him out of love, that love wasn't real... it was an echo of something from her past, something she would not have chosen had David not made her forget.
I don't know why anyone would argue against this.
And sure, it was the SK who initially changed her mind about David, but only by showing her the truth.
Of course it was a rape, nobody is saying it wasn't.
That doesn't mean it's as clear cut as you make it out to be regarding David's intentions.
So you're David, this is the situation :
1) The shadow king is literally a monster. He has been torturing people for decades, he just recently killed dozens of innocents, including David's sister to torture him, LENNY STATED HE RAPED HER MULTIPLE TIMES WHEN HE TRAPPED HER IN HIS MIND, he is a complete master of manipulation, both with and without his powers, he knows human psyche perfectly and reading others' mind allows him to get under their skin
2) Your girlfriend, that you (think you) love very much, and that you thought loved you equally, that you've been trying to save for the past days, finally reappears, and wants you dead out of nowhere. Claims you're pure evil and will lead the world to ruins, even though you have no intention of doing so, and only reason you've been on that path was this very same girl. (David ignores he is mentally ill at this point)
3) The girl actually literally shoots you. She was ready to kill you and you survive by chance. Why would you not assume this is because of the shadow king ?
We have seen how the Shadow King showed Syd "the truth". As I said, cherry picking elements out of context to illustrate and prove your narrative while also choosing what will affect someone whose mind you read the most will absolutely influence their conclusion. The shadow king painted himself as a hero (he's not) and David as an inevitable monster (was completely debatable up to that point).
David never claimed he was perfect, and he clearly was trying very hard to do all he could FOR Syd.
Why does she go to kill him ? He was powerless ? Just get him to wear an anti power device. Wait for your powers back and steal his body ? Anything ?
It's really dumb. It's irrational. At the end she doesn't want him dead she wants him hospitalized. So what changed ? (since what he did at the end was way worse than anything he had done before when she tried to murder him)
David had many reasons to believe the Shadow King influenced her because he did. Manipulation is something very real, beyond "super powers", and even if Farouk didn't manipulate her with his powers, he still used his powers to create a set of pictures and memories that would absolutely convince her there was only one way.
So David erased those memories. Up until then I am perfectly fine with this because I don't think things were fair here. They could have talked it out, he would have done anything for her. But she decided to literally kill him. Even though the future had already changed which means nothing was set in stone.
It's after this that I don't agree with anything and where he turns into a full villain. He should have simply told her the whole truth, but not by letting her access the Farouk exchange since he conceived it with very little room for interpretation. Just let Syd come up with her own conclusions.
Keep in mind Syd is someone that took over someone else's body to beat up girls, and another one to have sex with a non willing person. So I think she knows a whole lot about making mistakes. Farouk just twisted her mind with all the talk of "end of the world" and showing her hard to watch memories that happened in David's mind. (Explained in a post above why I have issues judging someone because of what happens in his "mind")
There is absolutely no defending as to what he did after that. There is no ambiguity there. He raped her to convince himself his delusion was real and passed the point of no return.
That doesn't mean what led to it wasn't more complex than some of you make it out to be. Because he didn't just erase the memories for her to love him.
It's because she "knew" he was the end of the world. So they'd all try to kill him or turn him into a zombie. And since David was told he wasn't sick, he has no reason to believe he can't control himself. It absolutely is once he decides to have sex with Syd that he becomes a monster in my opinion.
There is no defending, yet you wrote that entire thing out to try to make it seem less... lol.
Except that's not at all what I did. I mainly spoke of what happened in the first part. I made clear the second part is when he turns into a villain.
I mean you can clearly read, it's literally spelled out... lol.
You're acting like David had all the pieces to the puzzle. He didn't. The whole point of the season is to reveal that his delusion hid his illness from him because he unconsciously discarded the more rational explanations.
From David's point of view, erasing what Farouk showed Syd was not as horrible because
1) Farouk is a monster known as a manipulation master (just freshly murdered and abused dozens of people)
2) Syd literally tries to murder him
3) David is convinced he is the "good guy" since he hasn't realized what was wrong with him (and his illness reappears the second Syd shoots because she breaks his delusion)
4) He believes that even if somehow it was the truth, the future isn't set in stone and knowing about it is enough to avoid it (which is proven by Farouk's survival)
If he had not erased the memories, everyone would turn against him and try to kill him or turn him into a zombie. On top of that Syd's interactions with Farouk clearly affected her (I also explained why Farouk made sure she would feel this way) so that was convenient for David. She did not give him any chance and went straight for the kill so there was no way she would talk.
So I said, I think it's more gray up to that point, what should or shouldn't have happened. If he had told her the whole truth after that so she could reconsider the situation, it'd be fine in my opinion.
What happened after that is not gray at all, and there is no defending for it, no.
The whole David turning into a villain is a self fulfilling prophecy. Syd created this David in this timeline by trying to murder him for things he had not done yet. He made some terrible decisions afterwards but they pushed him to a place where he had no choice but to become what they deemed him to be.
That ending was a little bit of a mindfuck but the discussion here helped me to clear my thoughts.
Everybody has his wrongs here, Farouk didn't manipulate Syd's mind with his powers but only led her to a reasoning that is not entirely true because him surviving is testament that nothing is set in stone and David crossed the line when he used his powers on Syd's thoughts. Shit went from 0 to 100 at the end because they all are afraid of what David is capable of, he theoretically has no limit and he thinks that for the first time of his life he is sane and is the good guy doing only good things because they persuaded him he is. Even if this season had its up and downs, I can't wait to see the next encounter between Farouk (clearly the best character) and David or Legion if he becomes that guy.
Everybody has his wrongs here, Farouk didn't manipulate Syd's mind with his powers but only led her to a reasoning that is not entirely true because him surviving is testament that nothing is set in stone and David crossed the line when he used his powers on Syd's thoughts. Shit went from 0 to 100 at the end because they all are afraid of what David is capable of, he theoretically has no limit and he thinks that for the first time of his life he is sane and is the good guy doing only good things because they persuaded him he is. Even if this season had its up and downs, I can't wait to see the next encounter between Farouk (clearly the best character) and David or Legion if he becomes that guy.
Again, a whole heap of words to try to justify it. We all understand the context, we all understand the pieces in play and what David perceived etc...
It doesn't lessen the act at all, the entire point is David does what he wants when he wants and twists it in his own mind to be the right thing.
What an amazing show. Is the next season going to be the Shadow King and Division 3 hunting down David? lol And shit is not clear cut with David. Theres huge extenuating circumstances here. im definitely more on Davids side here. What great storytelling. So what episode would have been the episode added on?
It does absolutely lessen altering her memory. It doesn't lessen what he did after altering her memory. Which I was in no way trying to justify. Try again.
Don't reply to me if you don't bother having actual arguments thank you. I'm done wasting my time with you. I actually took time to explain and it's perfectly fine if you disagree I'd like to hear why, if not bye.
It doesn't, no. If he cared about her he would try to explain without using his powers on her, if he believed he was right he should trust that belief.
Or perhaps used his powers in another way instead out outright removing her memory as he did.
He abused his powers and he abused her, no amount of context lessens this and that's the entire point.
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Except he did try to explain without his powers. She literally tried to murder him anyway.
She even went in and blamed him for the division murders while completely ignoring how Oliver just casually murdered 15 people and it was clearly Farouk. She was completely turned around by the Shadow King, he read her mind and created the perfect tool to convince her, she gave David absolutely no chance.
She refused to listen to him, offered him 0 compromise (unlike what happens at the very end) and went straight for murder, if she awakens with the Farouk memories, she would tell all the others around them (the very same people that tried to kill David already).
Farouk created the perfect narrative with precisely chosen memories and leaving some of the context for Syd to come to one conclusion and one conclusion only.
She did not second guess anything, took it for granted and was ready to kill David.
So yeah it absolutely does lessen the fact that he took the memories out.
What he should have done afterwards once they were back is tell her the truth and give her actual facts.
What he did is why he's become a villain.
Non rhetorical but I'm actually wondering what you think would have happened if he didn't touch her memory about Farouk.
Style over substance is an overwrought, oversimplified, but not entirely undeserved criticism of this show. But for all it's flaws, this season has been very deliberate and very explicit about what a delusion look like and what insanity looks like. It's almost as if the point was to make it as obvious as possible (even to the point of having Syd say it clearly to the camera) that David was completely in the wrong to do what he did.
Ultimately that was the point of a lot of the Jon Hamm sequences too. For example: the red/green sequence was about us assuming David is a hero because he is the protagonist (we've been taught to believe that the protagonist is a hero, so we've been interpreting David's actions through that lens).
On another note: Farouk is interesting. He's lived his life as a god among ants, never really caring (or long since stopped caring) about people's perception of him. But when he learns that Future Syd wants him to stop David from destroying the world, he loves the idea of being a hero. He's manipulating everyone to push Davis into becoming that monster specifically because he wants the glory of being the hero. There's no glory in killing David before he becomes Legion.
Ultimately that was the point of a lot of the Jon Hamm sequences too. For example: the red/green sequence was about us assuming David is a hero because he is the protagonist (we've been taught to believe that the protagonist is a hero, so we've been interpreting David's actions through that lens).
On another note: Farouk is interesting. He's lived his life as a god among ants, never really caring (or long since stopped caring) about people's perception of him. But when he learns that Future Syd wants him to stop David from destroying the world, he loves the idea of being a hero. He's manipulating everyone to push Davis into becoming that monster specifically because he wants the glory of being the hero. There's no glory in killing David before he becomes Legion.
Nope, he was in no immediate danger at all when he altered her memory. At that point his powers had returned and she posed no threat to him. IF she still chose to believe what she did, well he should have tried other ways.
Nothing you have said justifies altering her memory.
What ? They were surrounded by all the division members, she wakes up she tells everyone, back to being a fugitive or a captive. And the choke is still nearby. (Also Syd also has her powers back so that go wrong VERY quickly, remember she literally pulled the trigger, she's not gonna be all peaceful waking up next to him)
Plus she already demonstrated the damage Farouk has caused. She gave him no chance and went straight for murder, so David reverted what Farouk did.
In this case, her "memory" is a twisted narrative conceived by David's mortal enemy who happens to be a manipulation master, using chosen pieces of his thoughts without context and a sense of fatality, while reading Syd's mind to know how to push her around.
You side with Syd because she's the hero (not to debate about whether Farouk's manipulation was legitimate or not), but David knows Farouk always tries to manipulate people/things around him to make him suffer, why would this be any different ?
I don't even think the show itself tried to sell Syd's motivation as being flawless, because that line about David killing the division people was really dumb for her to say, considering Oliver did the same and it's proven it's Farouk.
You haven't told me so I'll ask again, what do you think would have happened if he hadn't erased her memory ? I'm curious. (like how you think things would go)
That's the entire season, they have tons of foreshadowing that's pretty hard to remember when episodes are months apart. When I saw David with the green energy and Faruk with the red energy in the finale I was like... "Wait omg"
Also when David asked future Syd if she wanted to see him again she said "You brought me here. It wasn't my decision". I remembered this line because of the delivery, felt some animosity.