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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
"Great" is subjective but I agree that while it used to have a certain high bar in the past the quality dropped consistently, first with MGS4, then games after that, which is not to discredit how the more systematized approach of MGSV was very well executed. It's just, the qualities that attracts me to these games were clearly taking a backseat in that game, maybe not by intent but that was the result.

It's natural that over time development teams change, some people leave, others join, and the fallacy of Kojima is that he's the sole reason why his games are good, an auteur, but just like "BioWare Magic" isn't real, Hideo Kojima's godly vision also isn't the reason why MGS3 was amazing. It was a different time, the industry had other trends, Kojima Productions was a different shape and size then, Konami was different, and most importantly (I think) Kojima's trusty partners in crime, particularly that co-writer Fukushima-san, were responsible for great work. Their replacements, or perhaps the remainders when they left couldn't fill in the gap in the same way.

Personally as a guy who considers himself a good critic of writing, there's certain things to Shuyo Murata's writing style that makes it less impactful than the parts I know Fukushima wrote and over an entire game that just adds up to less in general. Kojima is a guy with a vision and he's a very smart guy, but as good as a director like James Gunn is, he also wouldn't be worth as much if he didn't have strong companionship of photographers or storyboard artists.

I think in many cases directors are managers and vision-holders. They're able to guide a team to do the right things but at the end of the day the real "talent" still comes down to the team itself and who it consists of, and Kojima going through Shuyo's filter for writing just gets different results than Fukushima's, and the same goes for practically anything where there was a change of staff between MGS3 and MGS4.
 

PSOreo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,260
How dare you OP. All of them have been fantastic. Peacewalker wasn't to my tastes because it was made for the PSP crowd (if I remember correctly Kojima stated he made it for Japanese kids on the move) and Phantom Pain was just troubled by Konami interference etc.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,091
My love for the series lines up with when Kojima had Fukushima on board that would reign him in, so after 3 when he left my interest dropped.

Gameplay in everything that followed was still top notch, but there is very little else about 4, PW, 5 that I like. GZ is the odd one out, for such a short experience it was amazing all around.
 

Contraband

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,041
Hannah, Montana
Yeah..., no.

Metal Gear cemented itself as my favorite series of all time when Kojima said fuck you and had us play as Raiden in MGS2. After the Zone of The Enders exclusive demo as Snake too.

Dude is a mad man.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,737
Ground Zeroes is a masterpiece. A full game with say six stages like that would have been the best Metal Gear Solid game ever made.
 

Zoidn

Member
Dec 23, 2018
1,714
Metal Gear Solid V is on a completely different level than anything Metal Gear had ever done before for me. I was pretty amazed just how well that game plays.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
How dare you OP. All of them have been fantastic. Peacewalker wasn't to my tastes because it was made for the PSP crowd (if I remember correctly Kojima stated he made it for Japanese kids on the move) and Phantom Pain was just troubled by Konami interference etc.
I don't buy this narrative. While Konami put the game out before it was done and definitely did not help things with how it locked Kojima away for the last few months of development, Kojima and KojiPro as a whole does hold *some* of the blame for the game being in the state it was in at launch.

Like, at the very least, Konami isn't the reason MGS5 is missing key elements that elevated the franchise in the past.
 

PSOreo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,260
I don't buy this narrative. While Konami put the game out before it was done and definitely did not help things with how it locked Kojima away for the last few months of development, Kojima and KojiPro as a whole does hold *some* of the blame for the game being in the state it was in at launch.

Like, at the very least, Konami isn't the reason MGS5 is missing key elements that elevated the franchise in the past.

I'm not solely blaming Konami but they certainly didn't help. There were clearly a number of factors that left the game in the state it was released.
 

Big G

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,605
I agree that they've generally been on the decline since MGS3; I think MGS4 is a pretty bad game, Peace Walker was unremarkable (albeit surprisingly addicting), and Ground Zeroes was an interesting level that I played 2-3 times and never again.

But I absolutely loved MGSV:TPP, so much so that I got the platinum trophy, and it's among my most-played games of this entire generation. I think it has - by far - the best gameplay design and mechanics of any Kojima game. I kept coming back to it over and over and would continually be discovering something new that I could do.

The only thing that legitimately disappointed me about TPP - and this was very disappointing to me - is that the game lacked a proper ending to its story, a worthy final mission. But if it did, it almost certainly would have been my GOTY over Bloodborne that year as well as my current GOTG, and definitely my favorite Metal Gear game. In the gameplay department, it is that friggen' good.

So while I did find 3 of their last 4 games to be underwhelming, I adored their most-recent one. Speaking strictly about the creative side of things, then yeah, everything since MGS3 has been pretty bad. Though the optimist in me feels that not being tied down to an existing franchise might help with Death Stranding.
 

Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,670
Miami
Yeah cause gaming is all about story, oh wait it's not. The gameplay has been getting better and better, while yes the storytelling is falling off. MGS4 to me is his masterpiece, V is unfinished but has the best gameplay of any game of its type. Kojima and MGS have always had a high quality.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,977
Compared to MGS3 sure (though it's the Greatest of All Time imo, so hardly a low bar). Loved MGS4, deeply flawed sure, added and explained stuff that really should have just been left alone, but I absolutely loved my time with MGS4. Peace Walker was a very good handheld game. Ground Zeroes was great and MGS5 had some of the best feeling controls ever, deeply disappointed by damn near everything else, but it's still a good game.
Also stuff like MGR, which he and his team didn't do directly, but it was Kojima's idea to give to Platinum.
 

ActWan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,334
Loved each and every one. 4 is my all time favorite game, the highs are just so well done and it's a perfect ending to the franchise. V is my fav of this gen, a disappointment which grew on me and became a masterpiece. PW is my least fav MGS game and even that is really good, I loved the story.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
Yeah cause gaming is all about story, oh wait it's not. The gameplay has been getting better and better, while yes the storytelling is falling off. MGS4 to me is his masterpiece, V is unfinished but has the best gameplay of any game of its type. Kojima and MGS have always had a high quality.
Honestly, it having as good core gameplay as it does (and, seriously, it is practically unrivaled in that realm) is dragged down by how the game's unfinished nature does impact the actual missions themselves, meaning the gameplay does end up being limited in that way. The game dropping the ball when it comes to boss fights is a real bummer in regards.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,985
I kinda agree, 5 had amazing gameplay but all the "story" was in fucking cassette tapes.

Peaked at MGS3.
 

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,735
5, 4 and PW were bad so I agree. Only the game play remained good throughout.
 

Zohar127

Member
Oct 27, 2017
171
4 and 5 were great games in their own way, but each had strong downsides. 4 went full anime, and if you aren't into that, you're not going to like the game. 5 was a phenomenal playing game but everything about the stories and characters felt totally unfinished.

Even though, they are both still great and Kojima definitely had it.
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,010
Overall I think I agree that the series being over is probably for the best, but I'm somewhat torn.

I thought MGS V brought a lot of interesting things to the series as far as gameplay and overall structure. And actually controlling Big Boss, whether in stealth or in shootouts, felt really, really good. It was refreshing and way better than in any other Metal Gear. But creatively, the game was a big letdown imo. The plot was a mess that felt incomplete and unsatisfying (with a lame ending) and none of the characters were handled well imo, especially the new ones. For a series that had me really invested in its characters and universe, MGS V felt like a disappointing failure in that regard.

As for MSG 4, I honestly still like it. It's over the top with lots of fan service and some dumb story beats, but I've got a soft spot for it. Creatively it still mostly felt like classic Metal Gear.

Moving beyond MGS V, I would have loved to see a sixth game that paired the gameplay improvements from V with an improved story and better characters / writing. Of course given all the talk over the years of Kojima wanting to move past Metal Gear, maybe that would have been a bad idea. It's just that MGS V feels really underwhelming as the finale to such a legendary series.
 

WorldHero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
188
Harsh but true OP. I don't blame Konami for MGS 4 & 5, I blame Kojima. He's a visionary but often at his own detriment. That being said, I'm cautiously looking forward to Death Stranding.
 

Deleted member 26900

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
721
The only game in the series that had the worst gameplay was MGS4. MGS5 was a technical masterpiece in both gameplay and engine. Kojima's stories were flawed, yes, but Peace Walker was the last great story of the series. Then Ground Zeroes came out, followed by The Phantom Pain.

So, no, definitely not and Kojima is still one of best video game creators in the industry. Though his flamboyancy and strive to make his games like movies could be his weakness.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
For a series that had me really invested in its characters and universe, MGS V felt like a disappointing failure in that regard.
It didn't actually occur to me until last night that, for a franchise carried by always introducing new memorable characters, MGSV only really introduces three new major characters, one of which is mute and another doesn't even really show up until very late in the game. Meanwhile, the game gets carried almost entirely by existing characters, most of whom are basically the most restrained and basic versions of those characters.
 

Robdraggoo

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,455
I would kill for a MGS4 4k remaster. Loved that game. Overly long cutscenes and sll
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
I havent played 4, but 1, 2, 3, and 5 each feel like they take singular ideas and translate them to game pretty gracefully, in a way that i dont really feel from non-kojima games.
 

Tayaya

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
467
While I have to agree with OP that MGS3 is the peak of the series in some ways, MGS4 remains one of my favorite games of the PS3 era. Once you take the lengthy install times out, the only real "issue" with the game is the third chapter where you have to sneak around the city - it does feel out of place and the mechanics there are a bit janky.... but everything that happens both before and after that is just great. They make up for the city chapter as soon as it's done with a heavy ladle full of fan service that I did not expect but thoroughly enjoyed. The ending, too, is one of the best in the sense that it ties up so many of the loose ends of the story in a neat little bow, as if there was no plan for a V after that.

Mechanically, V was perfection, but the lack of a true narrative and the peace-walker chunk-style gameplay did make me put it down. Peace walker executed it wonderfully but for V I wanted something more. However, I do think I'll give it a go again, because it does seem like I missed out on a lot if only I stuck with it more.
 

LAA

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,333
Well, as for the MGS games, MGS1-3 I would still say are all great, the creativity and thoughts that went into them are unlike things I've seen in other games, like all those methods to kill bosses like the end, psycho mantis and mechanics you just wouldn't expect. MGS4 is a bit of a blur for me honestly, but it was enjoyable enough and the final section was very memorable. MGSV was the best gameplay wise, disappointing story wise, which is a big shame, and as you say, a lot of characters dropped for MGS V, MGS V just felt like something unfinished really.
Peace walker I also very much enjoyed.

I think Kojima, story and concept wise, is top tier. Marketting wise he's a genius too, love the way he markets/reveals his games.
I'd say his only weakness in his games is the gameplay aspect... he would certainly benefit from a proven name to help shape the gameplay of his games. While I don't really think the gameplay in MGS1-5 is bad by any means, I don't think they're up to par with everything else.

Funnily enough coinicentally, I just started playing Metal Gear Rising again and.. that must be one of my favourite games of all time, it's just perfection for me in pretty much every department, it continues to pain me we'll likely never get a sequel, I'd even like a remaster. I think it says a lot that it came out in the same year as a lot of great games, TLOU being one of them, and I would still rate that as GOTY I think for me. The senator cutscenes were just incredible, can pretty much recite it from memory, ha.

The MGS series being dead, I think is for the best too now. Trust Konami to make the wrong choice. Rising I think is the only series it could really carry on with possibly without Kojima without much outrage, (Though I do wonder if story wise. a Rising 2 would stand up to 1 without Kojima, his influence is still definitely in 1).
Survival really was Konami's chance to prove it could continue MGS without Kojima, and it really failed and rushed out something that is easily the weakest of the series and its obvious they wanted to make it as cheap as possible, a shame.

Really other than a Rising 2, which I would give a chance, but would still have concerns, (Provided they gave it to Platinum too, I feel I could trust them to make a great game 99% of the time), I could only really trust them with remakes now (Provided they don't push MTs into it).
 

Zutrax

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,192
Hard disagree. About the only point I do agree with is the problematic elements with some of his female characters which is a view that can be changed and might even be fixed by Sony having ownership over his games now.

Metal Gears Solid 4, while absurd and totally stupid, is my favorite MGS game and had a shit ton of heart to it and wrapped up everything in an emotional and wonderful fanservice package. A lot of people can be down on that, but it had me glowing from how perfect it was in it's mix of genuine emotion and Metal Gear stupidity.

Peace Walker is totally fine, I'm of the opinion that it was more hindered by the PSP's limitations than anything. The story wasn't amazing, but wasn't bad. I hardly think it's weak enough to warrant being worried about future Kojima content.

MGSV is an incredible cinematography experience with some of the best gameplay to grace our presence this generation. The story was totally butchered sure, but it still had some absolutely incredible moments and I think a lot of it's rocky road could be in part due to the Konami trouble.

Also you're forgetting P.T. which may be one of the best horror experiences I've played this generation.

We also need to note, Kojima has come out on record and said he was tired of Metal Gear several times, so I feel like being detached from it we will see some real amazing things from him and his team.
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
This is actually untrue. 4, Peace Walker and V were written by Kojima and Shuyo Murata (who was also co-director of 4). I find it interesting that whenever this topic comes up people are quick to give credit to Fukushima and assign blame to Kojima while completely ignoring Murata having a similar role to Fukushima in the past.
Agreed, though I'll also point out that Murata was a co-writer on MGS3 too (and directed the vampire mini-game). Trying to paint it as a black and white "this guy was the reason these were great and that other guy fucked it up" is some pre-school shit, especially for a series that went in so many different directions like Metal Gear.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,501
Peace Walker was great and MGS4 was one of the most grand and ambitious games of all time that I don't think we will see again
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,349
The Stussining
Murata's case is weird because he's basically replaced Fukushima for 4 and 5, but then he was also present with Fukushima in 3 so it's not like he only ever worked on the games that had issues.
Agreed but he does occupy this weird spot that Fukushima never got during his tenure. He got to co-direct MGS 4 (but he remainded un credited) which is pretty amazing to me since Fukushima never got the tap like that.
 

Etain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,800
Story wise, I agree completely.

Gameplay wise however... MGS4 was pretty enjoyable before it crawled up its own ass, PW was a ton of fun with a throwaway story, and while I never beat V it was still pretty damn enjoyable from what I played.
 

Deleted member 13155

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,604
MGSV's moment to moment gameplay is perhaps one the best ever. What you can do in that game is insane. Sure the story is shit and the mission design is questionable but the actual gameplay is god tier.

MGS4 is a game thats usually being slammed but in reality its not bad (not as good as 2 and 3, but still a huge game) and a lot of players went back to it after it got a trophy patch, it got 2 GOTY awards at a certain forum, and its a popular PS Now asset. Not to mention the port begging. Admit it, a lot of you like MGS4.

I played it on Now a few weeks ago. Its actually really good still. I know the gameplay and freedom takes a huge hit beyond the second act which is a shame, but in terms of visuals, sounds, cutscenes it was a triple A product at the time. A lot of resources went into it and it shows. It was too ambitious for the PS3, the sneaking through a live battlefield ideas are there but due to the limited hardware its not quite as grand in scope as HK probably wanted it to be. But I still love the opening with War is changing and the Love Theme playing.
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
Agreed but he does occupy this weird spot that Fukushima never got during his tenure. He got to co-direct MGS 4 (but he remainded un credited) which is pretty amazing to me since Fukushima never got the tap like that.
Why? Murata had already proven himself as a game director with ZOE2, so it made sense to expand his role. Plus who knows what happened behind the scenes, we do know Kojima tapped Nojiri (Ghost Babel, MGA and MGA2) to take over Metal Gear but he turned it down and eventually shifted over to another team at Konami.