A compelling reason as to why he's committing patricide would be a start.
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Lets discuss Kylo Ren (Last Jedi spoilers)
- Thread starter Mondy
- Start date
A compelling reason as to why he's committing patricide would be a start.
It's already explained in TFA, he feels like he needs to eradicate the light in order to become a worthy successor to Vader.. rid himself of weakness. Snoke helped push him to realize this. "He means nothing to me. By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced" "I feel it again.. the pull to the light". Which was actually something EP7 did very well (handling Ben/Han).
This is something that actually makes him compelling. Instead of just spouting off one liners and looking cool.
Yeah the Ben/Han thing was the best moment in Episode 7.
I personally loved that they revealed that Kylo is Han's kid early in the movie instead of saving it for the bridge scene. I love that the audience goes into that scene with the collective realization that they're about to watch Han die
I personally loved that they revealed that Kylo is Han's kid early in the movie instead of saving it for the bridge scene. I love that the audience goes into that scene with the collective realization that they're about to watch Han die
Why does he want to be Vader? Vader fell. You'd think Luke's training and guidance would make him understand what happened with Vader and why he could not last. Idolising your grandfather's dark side is illogical when Ben didn't suffer the way Anakin did. Who wrote this shit.
I thought that was very, very clearly established, contextually, in EP7. Vader fell because of his weakness (from the perspective of Kylo Ren), not strength. His weakness in loving his son.
This is exactly why Kylo wants to murder Han. He feels if he eliminates his weakness (love for his father), he can succeed in a way Vader failed.
Snoke seduced and manipulated Kylo. I don't really think we need to be explicitly told more than that, as his struggle is what's important. Leia sent him away to Luke, and lost him for good (according to TFA). Maybe he never found his place with his parents and wanted to forge his own path.
I see. It's odd because Anakin turned to the dark side due to his fear of loss. His hatred and rage grew as he lost the people he loved and Ben is losing his loved ones through his own choices, purposefully, to accelerate his turn to the darkness. I guess that's what makes Kylo Ren interesting in this saga and what makes him different to Anakin. I may have to rethink my stance on his character.
He's easily one of my favorite movie villains. I saw potential in TFA but knew his rank would hinge on TLJ. And oh boy, he exceeded my expectations. TLJ Kylo Ren is my version of some of y'all going nuts over Thanos.
Which is why the ST is so great, even despite its flaws. You get so used to the PT telling you everything, almost nothing is shown that you don't already know. Nothing is left for interpretation, for the viewer to piece together.
By the time the ST hits, you expect the things GL gave you a decade and a half before. You're trained to be fed. A good example of "showing and respecting the audience" is Rey's introduction in TFA, which remains one of the best segments of all SW, IMO. It shows you so much about her character and who she is without saying a single fucking word. You're piecing together who she is and assuming things about her without even knowing it.
Oh, she makes a living in the desert by looking for scraps. She really wants to fly a ship.. she wants to get off this damn planet (the opposite of the execution of Luke in ANH, who tells us "I'm never gunna get off this rock".. which is still fine, just different). Even by the time the viewer starts hearing dialogue, we're hardly being told anything. She wants a friend, she confides in BB-8, as she relates to his struggle of being lost and longing to be reconnected.
If this were the PT, We'd literally get dialogue like "I'm an optimist! I'm a scavenger here on Jakku.. I look for parts in order to survive. BB-8.. oh you're lost too? You're just like me.. I'm also lost. Maybe we can be friends. I'm a pilot but I really want a ship to get out of here! Look at that ship flying away.. I really wish that were me".
Similarly, with Kylo, we're shown many things. Lots is left up for interpretation, but we can infer a lot via visual storytelling and context clues. Oh.. Kylo wants to kill Han because Vader fucked up by saving Luke. Is he at fault for killing his father or is Snoke? Maybe they both are. How is he going to move forward from here? Will he kill his mother.. will he bring himself to do it? Is there still good in him? Will he ever be redeemed? (spoiler: no).
That ain't bad writing.
It's an achievement, and I think a lot of people blatantly miss these things partly because they just spent three full films being literally told everything they need to know. Partly because they don't care enough to even give it a chance or interpret the information provided.
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I hope he's won't switch sides. That would so fucking stupid. Predictable and stupid.
Ben taking yet another L to Rey wouldn't be satisfying. I'm hoping we get something of a replay of the potential that was the end of VIII in the throne room scene, except with Ben and Rey fighting, with Ben winning but deciding he simply can't bring himself to kill her. Maybe Ben calls off his forces and goes for a truce, or maybe he just walks away from it all. Either way, I hope JJ has an interesting take on things.
I disagree. If it had been a complete surprise for the audience at the bridge scene, I think it would have had the potential to surpass the Vader reveal in ESB. Instead it's a slow burn, and like you said we all see it coming for a long time before it happens.
I disagree. If it had been a complete surprise for the audience at the bridge scene, I think it would have had the potential to surpass the Vader reveal in ESB. Instead it's a slow burn, and like you said we all see it coming for a long time before it happens.
Cinema's been regressing since the 70s when it peaked.
Hell, most modern storytelling is just remixing 16th century plays.
Come on. I didn't say those are the only two options. That's why I asked.. what would you want if not a complex/conflicted character who struggles with the light and dark? That is literally what SW is all about. "Whiny bitch" is dismissing that development entirely.
Still waiting for someone the answer the question I raised.
It wasn't meant to be a twist or surprise. Kylo eventually killing Han is purposefully telegraphed to the audience. It doesn't detract from its impact.
Are you saying you wish there was a trait in the character that made him likable? What do you mean exactly when you ask why you should care about the character? I am curious. Do you have to "care" about a character for the character to be compelling? Did you care about Hannibal Lecter or Heath Ledger's Joker? I sure as hell hope not, but those are obviously iconic characters (not saying Kylo Ren is iconic, just trying to prove a point) and they were not sympathetic in the slightest. I think Kylo Ren is by FAR the best character of the ST and it isn't even close.
I realize that, but from the pop culture framework of fictional film. Abrams and his staff of writers are going to have to teeter the line between portraying him as this vindictive, ineffective, and yet viably threatening leader without pushing him over the edge into Dark Helmet from Spaceballs territory.
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Not to mention the one line in TLJ about Snoke seeing Ren as a new Vader, speaking about the potential of his bloodline. It's established from TFA and that one line that he's been told by Snoke about his potential strength and has convinced himself he needs to be stronger and stronger in the dark side to eliminate that supposed weakness that Vader had, "the pull to the light." The irony is that he is showing weakness by buying into that nonsense. I think he ends up a tragic character and does not end up redeemed. It would betray the portrayal of the character from the first two movies, especially the end of TLJ.
As a character, I find Kylo's internal struggles between the light and dark side interesting, but as an antagonist he's garbage. He hasn't really been a viable threat to Rey and has pretty much lost to her in every encounter, and at most he slightly caused her to feel sorry for him in TLJ, but ultimately she never really wavered from being on the light side and good
This, 100%. Though I will say I think he and Rey will help each other in a personal sense (no, not that) before continuing his full out assault on the resistance.
That plot thread established in TLJ isn't disappearing, JJ is smart enough to recognize this.
That's kind of why I love it, though. I always felt like Han knew he was likely walking to his death, so I like that we as the audience feel the same as Han going into it.
That's the point, yep. And we watch as helplessly as Finn and Rey.
His next step in evolving is not letting his emotions get in the way of his goals. After the hard L he took at the end of TLJ, I feel it'd be strange if he didn't grow in this department. It's really his last step in regards to maturation.
I still think in that conference room snoke knew Kyle was going to kill him, that whole monologue about Kylo killing his enemy smoke knew he was talking about himself. Anyway Kylo is the only reason this trilogy is good cuz everybody else sucks
Compelling and caring about are two different things. Besides, I find Adam Driver's acting compelling not necessarily the writing for the character.
Also I can find a one dimensional villain compelling but if you expect me to care whether he lives, dies or gets redeemed, I'm going to need you to add a bit more grayness to him to make him sympathetic enough to get there.
Your self inserting too hard into Kylo Ren if you think Rey even remotely was tempted by his BS or that that would be an interesting thing for her character.
Every time they make Kylo seem badass, he just takes the L
i rather see an struggling antagonist than another nolan's joker where nothing ever goes wrong for them until the final act where the good guy finally wins
To be clear I don't think Rey was tempted by Kylo Ren much at all, but TLJ does establish that Rey isn't afraid to jump head first into sketchy Dark Side territory at a moments notice
Being a good antagonist does not come down to whether or not the character can be the hero in a sword fight. It comes down to how they clash with the heroes. Joffrey was quite literally a child yet he was still a huge threat to the heroes. Kylo is a perfect example of how to have a compelling antagonist.
She literally wasn't affected by the pull of the dark side. It's something Luke struggled with.
Honestly, this applies to Darth Vader as well. He didn't become a truly compelling antagonist until he became more directly connected to the core characters. In A New Hope he's a glorified lackey with almost no actual character (who himself takes a massive L at the end of the movie).
I always interpreted it more as her just not caring or realizing she was being pulled to the Dark Side at all, which is why Luke was so fucking terrified about how she jumped to the dark side without second guessing it.
There's a difference between struggling, and what is basically an ineffective foil for Rey. Like I said, while TFO might be a threat purely because of their numbers advantage, Kylo himself isn't really. He might be a better trained fighter, but that hasn't really translated into him besting Rey in any fight. She was able to combat his mind reading way back in TFA, was able to beat him in their fight at the end, was able to keep match him when they were both force pulling the lightsaber in TLJ (not to mention being able to escape while he was knocked out) and wasn't really tempted by him during their mind connection. He needs SOME sort of win against Rey, but that's looking unlikely considering they're at the last movie in the trilogy
Hey let's talk about Kylo Ren, but first here's why I didn't like Holdo.
Y'all gotta do better if you're still stirring the pot with Last Jedi threads. Your complaint is that you're not sure where the story is going. I don't know, wait and see it.
Kylo is a villain torn. You see him play the part TFA, but learn that he's struggling with it. In TLJ, you learn more about that struggle before he goes back to playing the part.
Y'all gotta do better if you're still stirring the pot with Last Jedi threads. Your complaint is that you're not sure where the story is going. I don't know, wait and see it.
Kylo is a villain torn. You see him play the part TFA, but learn that he's struggling with it. In TLJ, you learn more about that struggle before he goes back to playing the part.
He was a glorified lackey but he had some insanely powerful screen presence. Hell Kylo did too, until Rey stopped being afraid of him. Luke didn't get over his fear until ROTJ.
How does a sitg apprentice become a master, by killing their master of course. It was the last step Kylo needed to become his own I think that's what snoke wanted
I certainly hope JJ doesn't revisit "...but could Kylo be turned?" again. We've already had that been the focus of his character for two movies. He's already shown in several different ways he's beyond redemption.
I think JJ is more likely to revisit "Rey is a nobody" more than whether or not Kylo Ren can be turned. Last Jedi seems pretty definitive about Kylo going way past the point of no return
Snoke wanted a new Vader, who was basically the lapdog of Palpatine. If Kylo could be a new Vader, then he, and by extension Snoke and the FO would be unstoppable.
Also, Snoke and Kylo aren't sith lords. In fact, canonically Snoke was even thinking about killing Kylo as he was tired of the dude fucking up.
I thought he was the best character. He has the best internal conflict as he is "drawn to the light". He tries everything to be dark but still just can't. Ep 9 he might finally figure it out, but clearly the most dramatic story would be him turning light then dealing with guilt over past actions. Who would the villain be then? Certainly not Rey turning dark. I think they could explore the arms dealer angle further, maybe even revealing an arch villain bigger than anything ever seen in SW.
Why would Snoke want Kylo to kill him so he could take over, lol. He'd be dead.
You mean the characters so trivial they were only in a flashback or completely absent in 7 and 8?
I'm still convinced Ben survives Episode IX, but is not redeemed. We saw in TLJ that one can be cut off from the Force, as Luke did to himself. I'm guessing the next film ends with Rey defeating Ben in combat, and using her mastery of the Force to sever his connection to the Force permanently. Ben will live on, but he'll have to deal with the fact that now he'll truly never live up to the legacy of Darth Vader.
Seems no one told Snoke how Palpatine died lol. Although there was no one around, aside Luke, who knew so that makes sense
if kylo ren somehow knows what happened to rey's parents, surely the most powerful force user knows how the second most powerful force user died.
It's debatable whether he actually knew or if he was just trying to manipulate her, although I do hope he was right
Kylo is the best part of the new series and the best villain in the franchise. I agree that there is a stark juxtaposition between his actions and his intentions which makes him a difficult character to get a read on but thats part of what makes him such an incredible villain. Hes one of the few aspects of the new trilogy where we have no idea where its going.