• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
I recently re-watched The Last Jedi for the first time since December, which I really didn't mind at the time and thought the venomous, prequel like reaction from the fandom was typically hugely overblown and sad. Having watched it again, with the hype train long gone with an open mind, I STILL don't mind it all that much, but now its problems are starting to shine through a little more.

Just quickly, Laura Dern's character; It feels like she was included just so the marketers could say "oh hey, that woman from Jurassic Park is in this. Hurray.". She had only one meaningful scene and that was the hyper-drive collision which had less to do with her and more to do with the idea. So that's enough about her.

By far my biggest issue is with Kylo Ren, and the roots of this started in Force Awakens but really came to the fore in Last Jedi. I have no fucking idea where they're going with this character. He's nothing like his father, he's nothing like his mother, he sure as hell isn't anything like his uncle. He's just there, and for the most part, he comes across as a annoying whiny little bitch who is just brooding his way into the leadership of the First Order, because of course when he's leader he actually has a purpose.

The story tries to portray him as leaning more towards the "grey" side of the force, especially when he tries to lure Rey into that after the Snoke throne room fight, but his actions throughout the two movies are anything BUT grey. Slaughtering civilians at the beginning of Awakens, torturing Poe then Rey, killing his father, killing Snoke then attempting to kill Luke.....Nothing about this guy really makes sense when you think about it.
 

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been, a man truly torn between the two sides of the force. He is suffering and being pulled at all angles, like when he kills Han, but decides not to blow up Leia's ship, and thinks Luke tried to kill him. The fact that you don't know what direction he's going is what makes him great. "Let the past die," and he just wants to be his own man and have Rey by his side assumingly.

He's quite possibly the most complex Star Wars character in the franchise history. But maybe I'm speaking too soon because J.J. could give him an underwhelming ending in Episode 9, assuming he dies or something.
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,881
Still kinda blows my mind that the Skywalker bloodline is possibly dying with Kylo Ren.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,171
his patricide kind wrote off the redemption arc i guess they're angling for. i'm guessing he'll switch sides at the last minute sacrificing his life or something to that effect but it's just hard to get invested knowing more or less how it'll play out.

was about to get interesting when Rey was presumably about to buy into his "forget everything, lets just dominate together" but nope he's just the generic big bad after all
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,937
Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been, a man truly torn between the two sides of the force. He is suffering and being pulled at all angles, like when he kills Han, but decides not to blow up Leia's ship, and thinks Luke tried to kill him. The fact that you don't know what direction he's going is what makes him great. "Let the past die," and he just wants to be his own man and have Rey by his side assumingly.

He's quite possibly the most complex Star Wars character in the franchise history. But maybe I'm speaking too soon because J.J. could give him an underwhelming ending in Episode 9, assuming he dies or something.

First post nailed it. He is an amazing villain, because he is torn. His evilness comes from pain and internal struggles. You can actually believe he is able to turn back to the light.

I do believe he'll be pretty all-round evil in IX though. He made his final steps towards that path in TLJ...
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been, a man truly torn between the two sides of the force. He is suffering and being pulled at all angles, like when he kills Han, but decides not to blow up Leia's ship, and thinks Luke tried to kill him. The fact that you don't know what direction he's going is what makes him great. "Let the past die," and he just wants to be his own man and have Rey by his side assumingly.

He's quite possibly the most complex Star Wars character in the franchise history. But maybe I'm speaking too soon because J.J. could give him an underwhelming ending in Episode 9, assuming he dies or something.

This is not what Anakin should've been.

Ben Solo has absolutely no redeeming features. The sequels only care about showing you that he's in conflict but they never show you why you should even care about Ben Solo aside from his relationship to the OT cast.

Ben Solo is a piece of shit that's never once shown a nice trait.
 

siddx

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
1,807
Great character. Love his progress and excited about where it's going. I'm more interested to see what kind of character he becomes in 9 than I am anyone else.

Man I can't wait for next December. TFA and TLJ have done the unimaginable for me and actually made me love star wars.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
First post nailed it. He is an amazing villain, because he is torn. His evilness comes from pain and internal struggles. You can actually believe he is able to turn back to the light.

I do believe he'll be pretty all-round evil in IX though. He made his final steps towards that path in TLJ...

He's just an incel/alt-right-type dude. He's bad because he's hurting but we have no idea why he's hurting.

Adam Driver's acting is great but why should I care about Ben Solo as a person aside from being Leia's son? He hasn't shown a single sympathetic trait.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,190
UK
User Warned: Making a joke that trivializes issues transgender people face
This is not what Anakin should've been.

Ben Solo has absolutely no redeeming features. The sequels only care about showing you that he's in conflict but they never show you why you should even care about Ben Solo aside from his relationship to the OT cast.

Ben Solo is a piece of shit that's never once shown a nice trait.
Isn't calling Kylo Ren "Ben Solo" kind of like deadnaming?
 

Deleted member 42105

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 13, 2018
7,994
I think he's a good character, just not as a main villain.

Sucks that JJ is backed into a corner now where they have to kill him.
 

YuYu

Banned
Jun 18, 2018
1,309
Kylo is such a weak villain.I totally understand why people see him as an emo kid.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,434
his patricide kind wrote off the redemption arc i guess they're angling for. i'm guessing he'll switch sides at the last minute sacrificing his life or something to that effect but it's just hard to get invested knowing more or less how it'll play out.

was about to get interesting when Rey was presumably about to buy into his "forget everything, lets just dominate together" but nope he's just the generic big bad after all

Not at all. With Snoke's death the First Order is a logistical mess and it's doubtful they see him more than this hot-headed brat that's more of a danger to the organization than an asset, which could lead to a compelling plotline in IX.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,937
He's just an incel/alt-right-type dude. He's bad because he's hurting but we have no idea why he's hurting.

Adam Driver's acting is great but why should I care about Ben Solo as a person aside from being Leia's son? He hasn't shown a single sympathetic trait.
He is a villain. You don't need to sympathise with him. That doesn't mean he can't be intriguing.

He's hurting because he feels betrayed btw. There is also the aspect of him needing to fill the big shoes of those who came before, and probably fearing he'll never be able to (thus clinging to the legend of Vader he so wants to become)
 

Deleted member 17810

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
303
This is not what Anakin should've been.

Ben Solo has absolutely no redeeming features. The sequels only care about showing you that he's in conflict but they never show you why you should even care about Ben Solo aside from his relationship to the OT cast.

Ben Solo is a piece of shit that's never once shown a nice trait.

1.) He was manipulated in his youth by Snoke, torn apart mentally
2.) His grandfather was an evil child murderer
3.) All the expectations in the world were put on his shoulders as a kid
4.) He was twisted to believe his own family wanted to destroy him

Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm not sure you were paying attention.

Before you come up with a retort, go ahead and recap what we knew about Vader from episode 4, and 5... (less than we know about Kylo now)
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,813
I think he's a good character, just not as a main villain.

Sucks that JJ is backed into a corner now where they have to kill him.

I feel the same way. I quite like Kylo Ren as a character, he's so confused and torn that I actually don't know what he's going to do next and that makes him interesting to me. As the main villain, he's a wet fart.
 
Last edited:

aliengmr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,419
Kylo moves from being emulating the darkside and trying to hate what he and Snoke think he's supposed to hate, to basically going full burn-it-all dark side in TLJ. In TFA he was trying to be Vader, now he just in fuck everybody mode. For a guy that's basically controlling the galaxy at this point, it's not ideal for the folks that like living.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been, a man truly torn between the two sides of the force. He is suffering and being pulled at all angles, like when he kills Han, but decides not to blow up Leia's ship, and thinks Luke tried to kill him. The fact that you don't know what direction he's going is what makes him great. "Let the past die," and he just wants to be his own man and have Rey by his side assumingly.

He's quite possibly the most complex Star Wars character in the franchise history. But maybe I'm speaking too soon because J.J. could give him an underwhelming ending in Episode 9, assuming he dies or something.
He's definitely not what Anakin should've been, he's on a way kind of the opposite of Anakin. Kylo grew up privileged and loved by his family and did every possible to tear it all down because he's a cruel little boy lashing out and angry for reasons even he doesn't know why. He has no real ideals and doesn't care about bringing "peace" with the FO, he just wants everything to burn.

We already got the ideal Anakin and it's in Clone Wars. He grew up a slave who eventually had to leave his mother behind. He grew up to be a beloved hero of the Clone Wars with strong convictions about how the system isn't working. He finds love and protecting that love becomes his downfall. Kylo fell trying to do everything possible to destroy all love and goodness in his life, Anakin fell trying to save it.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
1.) He was manipulated in his youth by Snoke, torn apart mentally
2.) His grandfather was an evil child murderer
3.) All the expectations in the world were put on his shoulders as a kid
4.) He was twisted to believe his own family wanted to destroy him

Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm not sure you were paying attention.

Before you come up with a retort, go ahead and recap what we knew about Vader from episode 4, and 5... (less than we know about Kylo now)

None of that makes him sympathetic as a person. We have seen no evidence that Ben Solo had sympathetic traits. He's just an inherently cruel kid.

Also Vader didn't have a compelling redemption arc either plus he's an outdated character from the 80's. That's setting the bar low.
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
I feel the same way. I quite like Kylo Ren as a character, he's so confused and torn that I actually don't know what he's going to do next and that makes him intersting to me. As the main villain, he's a wet fart.

If they keep going the "subverting your expectations" path then they will probably make a good guy out of him in the end anyway... just because! Rhyme or reason? Who cares!
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
He is a villain. You don't need to sympathise with him. That doesn't mean he can't be intriguing.

He's hurting because he feels betrayed btw.

He's a villain that the trilogy wants you to sympathize with but fails for me in that department.

I mean him being "sympathetic"is why Rey wants to save him.

And how we got to the closest thing to a sex scene through their hand-touching according to Rian's words.

Rian:"One of my favorite shots of the movie, is those two fingers touching. That's the closest thing we'll get to a sex scene in a Star Wars movie.

So yeah.

There is also the aspect of him needing to fill the big shoes of those who came before, and probably fearing he'll never be able to (thus clinging to the legend of Vader he so wants to become)

No longer there by TLJ.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,937
He's a villain that the trilogy wants you to sympathize with but fails for me in that department.

I mean him being "sympathetic"is why Rey wants to save him.

And how we got to the closest thing to a sex scene through their hand-touching according to Rian's words.



So yeah.

Rey sees him struggle and understands and feels there is a shot he can be turned to the good side. And she tries, because she believes in the good of people.

It's like Luke with Vader in the OT, except that Vader shows no trait whatsoever to be sympathatic to him, or to believe he can be turned. From what Vader does before Luke decides he can bring him back, there is nothing really that tells us: there is still good in this man. Luke TELLS it to us. With Kylo we at least can see he's struggling. We see him go extremely violent, but we see him doubting too.


No longer there by TLJ.

Thet's what they call 'an arc'.
 

CarbonCrush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,135
I don't mind Kylo as a character. What I can't stand Kylo as is a villain. There's nothing threatening about his angst. There's no suspense as Rey has already got his number.

I feel like were going into the end of the trilogy with no credible villain. And that is the true failing of TLJ.
 

Lachdanan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
I agree, his story is very off for some reason. Even though I enjoy Driver's performance, I've found myself thinking "is this it?" when reflecting on Kylo Ren at the end of both movies
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Rey sees him struggle and understands and feels there is a shot he can be turned to the good side. And she tries, because she believes in the good of people.

It's like Luke with Vader in the OT, except that Vader shows no trait whatsoever to be sympathatic to him, or to believe he can be turned. From what Vader does before Luke decides he can bring him back, there is nothing really that tells us: there is still good in this man. Luke TELLS it to us. With Kylo we at least can see he's struggling. We see him go extremely violent, but we see him doubting too.

Have you seen the movie? The transition goes from:

Vile SNAKE! to "you're not alone" in the space of one scene.

Also Vader's redemption arc was also shoddy. Like that's setting the bar low and Vader's redemption arc happens during the early 80's. I'd like to think cinema has evolved since then.
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
5,823
Kylo Ren is my favorite character of the new saga and probably my favorite villain of the last ten years.
In Ep. VII he was basically a plot twist, not for his parentage, but for the fact that a villain could have such complex emotions in that universe. When he revealed his young face, without scars, it became clear that he was just a kid seeking for "darkness", some sort of edegelord if we want to use internet slang. But he also showed how dangerous he could be. All the other villains in that universe were just born bad, or people that turned to the dark side after a tragedy (Anakin), but Kylo basically chose to be bad. It is partially a nihilistic character.
In Ep. VIII his evolution went on in the best possible way, with him having still to fight the "light side" (and this is really interesting, how he sees this positivity as some sort of corruption) but basically obtaining absolute power without caring that much about ruling the galaxy. Again, he just wants to be bad.
His reasons make him look kiddy and annoying, sometimes almost comedic, yet he can be very imposing and scary, at least for me since he looks realisitc in his behavior.
I think that his arc is well made until now and that his move in Ep VIII was predictable (even though I thought he was going to do it in Ep. 9). In the end he's probably going to take his own life away, and not for saving the galaxy but because he's just a shit person (and Rey won't kill him for plot reasons).
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Kylo Ren is my favorite character of the new saga and probably my favorite villain of the last ten years.
In Ep. VII he was basically a plot twist, not for his parentage, but for the fact that a villain could have such complex emotions in that universe. When he revealed his young face, without scars, it became clear that he was just a kid seeking for "darkness", some sort of edegelord if we want to use internet slang. But he also showed how dangerous he could be. All the other villains in that universe were just born bad, or people that turned to the dark side after a tragedy (Anakin), but Kylo basically chose to be bad. It is partially a nihilistic character.
In Ep. VIII his evolution went on in the best possible way, with him having still to fight the "light side" (and this is really interesting, how he sees this positivity as some sort of corruption) but basically obtaining absolute power without caring that much about ruling the galaxy. Again, he just wants to be bad.
His reasons make him look kiddy and annoying, sometimes almost comedic, yet he can be very imposing and scary, at least for me since he looks realisitc in his behavior.
I think that his arc is well made until now and that his move in Ep VIII was predictable (even though I thought he was going to do it in Ep. 9). In the end he's probably going to take his own life away, and not for saving the galaxy but because he's just a shit person (and Rey won't kill him for plot reasons).
I really hope they don't off him in IX. Make him a rogue dark or grey jedi, I want him to destroy the First Order as some sort of "redemption" but it's not enough in the eyes of Rey and friends. So he exiles himself and rules over a distant small system or some shit.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,937
Have you seen the movie? The transition goes from:

Vile SNAKE! to "you're not alone" in the space of one scene.

Also Vader's redemption arc was also shoddy. Like that's setting the bar low and Vader's redemption arc happens during the early 80's. I'd like to think cinema has evolved since then.

I have seen the movie multiple times, and you greatly oversimplify things. Rey doesn't enter those Force Bond-scenes the same way as she exits them. She starts angry, but trough what Kylo tells and shows her, and how he gets inside her head, she adjusts his opinion on him. She might start out angry and ununderstanding, but in later scenes he shows her his version of Luke in his hut, and confronts her with his greatest weakness (she's looking for parent figures, and is unable to rely on herself).

There are iirc 4 Force Bond scenes before the touch. In the first they are both thrown off by it. She tries to shoot him, he tries to get inside her head to get her to bring him Luke. In the second is the murderous snake one, where she starts out agressivly towards him, but he is calmer and more rational. He confronts her with the fact she has prejudices against him, implying she doesn't have the whole picture. She says she knows everything she needs to know about him. He asks, you do? She's thrown of a bit and ge goes on. "Oh, I see you do. You have that same look in your eyes as when you called me a monster in the forrest. You're right. I am a monster". And this completely shuts her up. He made her doubt (it ends on a close up of her, showing doubt). It's all in the subtext...
And then still she hasn't come around. The third time she is in distress and she asks him why he killed Han. She is in a state of weakness, and he exploits it. He gets inside her head, confronting her with her greatest weaknesses, and telling her his side of the story. And he goes even further, urging her to let go of the past. Again, this makes her doubt everything she believes in.
And only then we get to the 'you're not alone', which isn't a scene that exists in a vacuum. In between, Rey has come to the realisation she won't get what she wanted and tought she'd find on Ach-Too. She feels alone, and Kylo is at that point the only one who has opened up to her and given her answers. He says she's not alone, and she returns that. After what she learned from their previous meetings, she believes he has good in him and that he hasn't completely went to the dark side. And then Luke barges in, they fight, she gets his side of the story and the idea Kylo can be saved is enforced.

Those are four scenes, each leaving Rey a little different when they end, progressively building towards the bonding moment. And you seriously want to argue it all happens in the space of one scene?

And yes, we're not in the 80ies anymore. The complexity of Kylo Ren is the perfect example of how movie have evolved.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Not at all. With Snoke's death the First Order is a logistical mess and it's doubtful they see him more than this hot-headed brat that's more of a danger to the organization than an asset, which could lead to a compelling plotline in IX.

I see it potentially as the inverse of Darth Vader, who inspired fear and reverence from within the Empire.

But that will require Abrams looking outside the box in characterizing the bureaucrats of the First Order as something other than pushovers. They would need a Tarkin like character, who when you think about it was never conceived to be of larger significance than his initial portrayal in ANH.

I'm curious as to how Supreme Leader Kylo Ren will be received if he's deliberately crafted to be an ineffective leader. American film audiences have become to conditioned to accept characters like Agent Smith, Thanos, Darth Vader and others to be the only acceptable villains in mainstream pop culture.

How do you compellingly make an incompetent antagonist a viable threat nonetheless, because most recent doomsday villains have been consistently depicted as genius level operators when you get down to it.

The only villain off the top of my head would be Commodus from Gladiator.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,467
I honestly think he's going to win in epsisode 9. Rey is going to lose.

Then another 3 films for a happy ending. Think about it. Prequal ends on a bad note. OG trilogy was good... First sequel trilogy needs to end on a bad note.
 

VaanXSnake

Banned
Jul 18, 2018
2,099
Driver performance is really great but Kylo Ren is so inconsistent in everything that it's really hard to like him as much as I want to, TLJ development killed my interest for the character, what a waste.
 

evilways811

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
148
St. Cloud, FL
The vibe I get from him is of a child that was neglected from all sides. His father was probably barely ever present, and probably wasnt the proudest dad, especially how Han always felt about the force and Jedi in the OT.

His mother was too busy being a politician/general. Then they send him away to his uncle to have him teach him how to control his powers, and that goes sideways as well.

So his paranoid, sociopath personality makes sense. Ben Solo was weak, and a nobody, so he created Kylo Ren, in image to his grandfather, who used to be one of the most feared men in the galaxy, in order to demand respect and instill fear in people.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Kylo Ren is a whiny emo moron. He doesn't look like a threat, continually makes mistakes, and isn't even that great in combat (when it's convenient).

I'm disappointed that he's now the main antagonist in IX.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,626
I really liked the part in TLJ where they reveal that Luke 'betrayed' Ben and that that's part of the reason why he was so eager to join The First Order and idolizes Vader, who also felt betrayed by the Jedi.

That said, the characterization of Ben/Kylo beyond that confuses me. By the time we meet him in The Force Awakens he's already pretty damn unredeemable, indiscriminately killing and torturing innocent people. This is even further solidified by him killing his father in cold blood. Then The Last Jedi comes around and they play around with the idea of redemption again for some reason and have him do an entire speech about how both the light and dark side are bad, only to choose for the dark side again and become the leader of The First
Order. I feel that Kylo would've been far more interesting if The Last Jedi ended with him going off on his own as some sort of rogue Force user.

I honestly think he's going to win in epsisode 9. Rey is going to lose.

Then another 3 films for a happy ending. Think about it. Prequal ends on a bad note. OG trilogy was good... First sequel trilogy needs to end on a bad note.
They're not going to end this trilogy on a bad note. Remember that the next trilogy (Rian Johnson) is supposed to have nothing to do with the current one. The "Skywalker saga" is ending with Episode IX.

People really, really don't like nihilism in their Star Wars, do they?
Kylo is not a nihilist.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
What does a threat look like exactly?
latest


latest


248px-BobaJango_CVD.jpg
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
2,997
How do you compellingly make an incompetent antagonist a viable threat nonetheless, because most recent doomsday villains have been consistently depicted as genius level operators when you get down to it.

The only villain off the top of my head would be Commodus from Gladiator.

There's one currently sitting in the real-world Oval Office. It's only a matter of time until #45: The Movie gets made.
 

Jacknapes

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,173
Newport, South Wales
Kylo Ren is certaily an interesting character. He's hurt, confused and his personality shows as someone who doesn't know what they want. As a main villian, not so good as the traits he possesses doesn't come across for a main villian.