Let's discuss the censorship in the German version of Wolfenstein 2

[Deleted member 2752]

By whom? Is that why games are treated differently? I'd love to read an article on this.

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By the law and I don't have an English article ready for that. Basically it's not clear and someone (probably a publisher) would have to go to court and would also probably win.

Here's an excerpt from a 2016 Spiegel article:

"Wolfenstein 3D" was confiscated in Germany in 1994. Not for reasons of youth protection, but because of the use of symbols of anti-constitutional organisations. Of course, swastika flags and Hitler portraits were hung in the digital Nazi headquarters. Their use is a criminal offence according to section 86a of the Penal Code. There are exceptions to this rule for artworks, but the status of computer games as art is legally controversial. If a publisher wanted to use swastikas, he would have to go to court.

From an economic point of view, this is not to be recommended, says Stephan Mathé, lawyer for media law. The applicant would have to prepare for a process that could take several years. If he were right in the end, the game would be obsolete. In addition, the title "the company that legalized the use of the swastika in games" would be of rather dubious value. That's probably why no one has ever planned to do so, says Mathé

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(AI translation by https://www.deepl.com/translator)

 

[Benson827]

Why doesn't Germany just acknowledge they fucked up with Hitler and Nazi's and just let portrayals of them in media fly by?

Ignoring a six year period of your country's history seems like a mistake.

It's not like German youth don't know what happened all those years ago through other forms of media and education.

I'm not German so I don't know the laws in place. I'd love to be enlightened though.

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I don't think that is the point here. Trust me Germans are very upfront and open about their history.

I remember for language class we had a German language textbook and they even talked about this kind of stuff. A language book for crying out loud! One page we were learning about how to pronounce German foods the next page was a full on Nazi Germany info page.

This is a major export language book made to enrich foreign students about their cultures. To see that in there was surprising

 

[nacimento]

Germany is arguably the only major country which owns up to its mistakes, so to say that the Nazis are swept under the rug is ridiculous.

It's just the combination of laws against Nazi glorification, games stupidly not being exempt bc they are not deemed art by law, and Bethesda going overboard.

 

[ViviOggi]

And yet they still have enormous populations of neo-nazis

It's totally working Germany

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So this is how you think when you get your world news from a gaming board. Good lord

 

[MancombSeepgood]

The developers really fucked that up. They could have easily used words like "Jew", "Hitler" or "Holocaust" without any fear of being denied to release on the German market. It is not forbidden to portray such things even in media which is not considered art by law (which is stupid but a different topic). All they REALLY have to do according to law is remove the Nazi symbols, nothing else.

As said above and as far as I know, there is no regulation that would have forced them to go THAT far. It was unnecessary.

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This is just Bethesda being overly cautious. If you look at Call of Duty: WWII, they only removed certain symbols there.

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Basically this. The only thing Bethesda had to do was remove swastikas and certain other symbols; there was absolutely no need, legal or otherwise, to change the terminology that way (and, equally egregiously, force the horrible German dub down our throats).

I'm also very confident that if any publisher actually bothered to go to court about this, video games would be afforded the same privileges that movies have had for decades. Hell, Angie opened Gamescom this year, games are no longer viewed as toys by the general German populace.

Also, to the (thankfully very few) folks alleging that Germany is in any way keen to sweep its past under the rug - please stop. We have gone above and beyond to deal with our past in the fashion that it required - hell, there's even an unnecessarily long German word for it.

...

Yeah yeah, I know, a post by a German largely devoid of humor, what a shocking twist :p

 

[Dinobot]

The intent of the law to ban the public display of swastikas is not to sweep the past under the rug, it's to prevent their glorification in the present. Movies, documentaries, books et al. are exempt because they're considered art/educational, video games are not.

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So, Germany does not hide their past and are very open and honest about it being a terrible point in their history. They teach it very directly and honestly in schools, etc.

They are very serious about people taking it seriously, and thus regulate where Nazi imagery can and cannot be used. For example, if someone walks down the street sporting a Nazi symbols, they can be arrested. They don't bs around with it.

Exeptions are made for art (books, film, etc) depicting that imagery. However in Germany, games are not legally considered art. Thus resulting in the problems in the OP. Legally they can't release the game there uncensored, so it was changed. Problem is it defeats the purpose of the law's original intention and results in censorship of the realities of WW2 and the themes the game is trying to explore.

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Thanks for this. A shame they don't consider games art, yet.

 

[Deleted member 2779]

The industry isn't keen on that PR disaster. Just imagine the inevitable BILD headline if someone tries to fight for the right to display Nazi symbols in games...

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I certainly understand their apprehension, particularly in today's climate (thanks U.S.), but I think it'd be worth pursuing. Not convinced it'd be a PR disaster either if they positioned a campaign correctly.

 

[Monogatari]

Germany is arguably the only major country which owns up to its mistakes, so to say that the Nazis are swept under the rug is ridiculous.

It's just the combination of laws against Nazi glorification, games stupidly not being exempt bc they are not deemed art by law, and Bethesda going overboard.

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They don't own up to their mistakes. They were forced to own up to their mistakes.

 

[Deleted member 2752]

They don't own up to their mistakes. They were forced to own up to their mistakes.

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Please tell me who has been forcing Germany to do that for the last few decades, I didn't know we were still occupied.

 

[gcwy]

By the law and I don't have an English article ready for that. Basically it's not clear and someone (probably a publisher) would have to go to court and would also probably win.

Here's an excerpt from a 2016 Spiegel article:

(AI translation by https://www.deepl.com/translator)

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Thanks for that, that's very interesting. I wonder if it still applies to modern games.

 

[Richietto]

One, they need to change video games to art for obvious reasons. Two, this is stupid. The game doesn't glorify anything they did and is literally about exterminating them. I understand where Germany is coming from but come on now. They don't even have the term Jew in there for fear of blowback???

 

[Deleted member 2752]

Thanks for that, that's very interesting. I wonder if it still applies to modern games.

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Yes it does, that's what the article is about. Like I said, 2016.

 

[Monogatari]

Please tell me who has been forcing Germany to do that for the last few decades, I didn't know we were still occupied.

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The last few decades attitude culminated from the occupation.

No country in the World admits their ills naturally.

In Germany's case it was the result of losing the war and being on the losing side of history.

Then again I suppose Japan are weirder when it comes to their crimes in WW2.

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

Ridiculous censorship like this is a good reminder that free speech and freedom of expression are important human rights that need to be protected by law.

 

[gcwy]

Yes it does, that's what the article is about. Like I said, 2016.

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Germany is a bit out of touch in this regard, don't you think? It wasn't uncommon to see violent video games being confiscated in the 90s, and the overall sentiment towards them was different too. That does seem somewhat ridiculous to me.

 

[Xando]

One, they need to change video games to art for obvious reasons. Two, this is stupid. The game doesn't glorify anything they did and is literally about exterminating them. I understand where Germany is coming from but why have laws to pretend it wasn't a thing? They don't even have the term Jew in there for fear of blowback???

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No holocaust and jew censorship comes from bethesda.

Holocaust denial is illegal in germany. Not sure why Bethesda made these changes.

 

[Deleted member 2752]

The last few decades attitude culminated from the occupation.

No country in the World admits their ills naturally.

In Germany's case it was the result of losing the war and being on the losing side of history.

Then again I suppose Japan are weirder when it comes to their crimes in WW2.

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You literally said "they don't own up to their mistakes", present tense.

Germany is a bit out of touch in this regard, don't you think? It wasn't uncommon to see violent video games being confiscated in the 90s, and the overall sentiment towards them was different too. That does seem somewhat ridiculous to me.

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Well yeah, obviously the law is, I don't think the people are.

 

[Deleted member 62]

Please tell me who has been forcing Germany to do that for the last few decades, I didn't know we were still occupied.

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Have you ever seen a German ID card? It's called "Personalausweis" (employee ID). Germany isn't a country, it's a GmbH (limited liability company), which is still under full control of the allies. The German government is just a puppet government.

Spoiler

There are really people who believe this and thus refuse to pay taxes or accept German police. To them, the current government and state is not legitimate

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Ridiculous censorship like this is a good reminder that free speech and freedom of expression are important human rights that need to be protected by law.

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The censorship is done by Bethesda, not the German lawmaker.

 

[WellbornWarrior]

I saw the video and the change is pretty ridiculous but it does hurt the atmosphere only slightly. The scene still conveys the same meaning, even if the changed terminology makes it weaker.

And yeesh, I don't know whats more backwards, the german laws or the worldviews of some people in this thread. We even have our own word for holocaust memorials which has no counterpart in any other language.

And its not like right wing forces are on the rise everywhere, in the USA first and foremost of all places.

 

[Alvis]

I don't understand why the law can't simply be to not allow any positive representation of the nazis. Any game with nazis on it has to be reviewed, and as long as they are the bad guys, it's fine. The end.

 

[Starlatine]

People stop, just stoooop! If you don't have the slightest clue what's going on in modern day Germany in regards to dealing with its past and the Nazis, could you just, you know, not post the first idiotic and thoroughly false thing that pops into your brain?

This is making my blood boil. :-(

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read my followup post

i'm not blaming the sane people of germany there - i recognize germanys effort of changing their image and today they are one of the best places for progressive thinking in an increasingly worrysome europe, or at least it seems like from the outside

but the people in charge of these outdated regulations and the publishers who resign to their will, they are doing the sweeping and it's not a good thing to do. it's pointless, i trust the general inteligence of the german population to understand that wolfenstein is about nazis and the cover up is just... lame? and pointless in the lack of a better word

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i was not blaming the people of germany for the removal of nazi imagery in wolfenstein (even argued that sniper ghost warrior - cod and sniper elite as well - was a good comparison to see what is up to the publishers and what is up to the regulations) but since you're the second that had this impression then i must have expressed myself badly, so apologies

 

[Deleted member 30151]

One, they need to change video games to art for obvious reasons. Two, this is stupid. The game doesn't glorify anything they did and is literally about exterminating them. I understand where Germany is coming from but why have laws to pretend it wasn't a thing? They don't even have the term Jew in there for fear of blowback???

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I guess this is more a Bethesda thing. Changing more than necessary. One reason is "Better safe than sorry", another reason is to avoid a backlash by society. I'm born and raised in Germany (and of course, live here) and I can tell, Wolfenstein will always be viewed more strict here than any other videogame with Nazi themes. Videogames are still one of the very few things here that strictly forbid such stuff. It's old fashioned and you can compare it to the mosaic censorship in japanese porn distributed in Japan. People tend to get a wrong view about Germany and it's Nazi past. You can talk about it, no one is denying the Holocaust and Hitler happened, movies, cartoons and books will not be censored. It is of course forbidden to paint Swastikas and other crap on walls or greet anyone with "Sieg Heil" (you can do even this in private if it gives you something, the DDR is long gone and no one is monitored in his own 4 walls). I guess, no sane person should do this in whatever country he or she lives.

Ignoring the Holocaust is absolutely wrong and if I get Wolfenstein 2, I will buy the PEGI version which should be uncensored. It's, by the way, not illegal to get this game as a consumer. But since the first new Wolfenstein gave me motion sickness, as good as it was, I will most likely never be able to play it.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

I don't understand why the law can't simply be to not allow any positive representation of the nazis. Any game with nazis on it has to be reviewed, and as long as they are the bad guys, it's fine. The end.

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I actually doubt that this is problematic nowadays. Its just that no developer actually tried to release a game with swastikas in the last 17 years.

You have comedy shows here showing them...

 

[Muffin]

I don't understand why the law can't simply be to not allow any positive representation of the nazis. Any game with nazis on it has to be reviewed, and as long as they are the bad guys, it's fine. The end.

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Nobody is challenging the law, so nobody is touching it. The law wasn't made when videogames were as big of a thing as they are now (maybe not even a thing at all, not sure). If somebody challenged it, they'd very likely gain the same status for video games as exception of this law like movies etc. do.

 

[Deleted member 15933]

Sorry OP, more than the title must be edited. As said plenty of times in this thread, Bethesda quite incompetently self-censored their game which turns the idea behind all those existing German laws concerning Nazi symbols etc. on its head.
On the rather separate note that video games are not considered art in Germany, I can only agree that these laws are beyond stupid, disgraceful even. It is a very different subject than Nazi history though, and I'd appreciate that the topics be handeled separately.

 

[L Thammy]

I feel like this is the sort of thing that would be clung onto by the folks who get antsy about legal action against hate speech, regardless of whether or not Bethesda or Germany is responsible for the changes. Probably not outside of the gaming sphere, but still not great.

 

[Muffin]

Some people are saying "video games are not considered art in Germany", that's strictly from a legal perspective. Video games are represented on the German council of culture since 2008.

 

[KillerMan91]

The last few decades attitude culminated from the occupation.

No country in the World admits their ills naturally.

In Germany's case it was the result of losing the war and being on the losing side of history.

Then again I suppose Japan are weirder when it comes to their crimes in WW2.

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Allies had different policies in Japan after the WWII than in Germany. There wasn't anywhere near the same amount of ''denazification'' in Japan. I mean the Emperor could kept his title despite being one of the major war criminals of the whole WWII. US wanted quickly new strong ally in Asia against Soviets and commie China so they kinda let japanese to sweep their WWII history under the rug. You can see the results today.

 

[Muffin]

Literally the only thing Bethesda would have needed to do is not show any swastikas. Nothing else. Which is dumb already for sure, but it wouldn't have been this.

 

[Dynamite Cop]

So much for Bethesda acting like they had a spine with their marketing.

 

[BernardoOne]

The fuck, Germany?

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Germany didn't do anything. They didn't need to do anything else other than removing Swastikas.

 

[Schnitzelfee]

Also regarding that Persona pic... that game was never officially released in Germany back in the day... so the whole Hitler/sunglasses thing has nothing to do with Germany at all

edit: and people talking about Germany without having a clue, not really understanding whats going on here and are saying we don't own up to our past are really just insulting imo

 

[Bitch Pudding]

The fuck, Germany?

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(unlike movies, games not being considered "art" is the cause for all this, not Germans being unable to cope with their past).

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

The censorship is done by Bethesda, not the German lawmaker.

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In an attempt to comply with their laws...

What is the point of this distinction?

 

[Toucan]

In an attempt to comply with their laws...

What is the point of this distinction?

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The point is that no German law required them to go this far.

It's absolutely amazing how many people have absolutely no idea about either the legal status of games in Germany, or how the way the war and the Holocaust are handled in the country. As a German, some of this stuff is downright insulting to read, especially considering a lot of the issues are addressed in the very first post, which some people here clearly didn't bother to read.

No German law demands that games be altered to such a ridiculous degree. The blame for this travesty rests squarely on Bethesda, who, as it happens, are also the only publishers IP-blocking German players on Steam so they can't even launch uncensored versions of Wolfenstein if they own them (which - surprise! - the law doesn't require them to do, either). My guess is that some of the higher-ups at Bethesda (i.e. most likely non-Germans) are scared absolutely shitless of breaking any German laws without actually knowing what those laws are, and as a result have gone way overboard in making the game as inoffensive as possible.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

You take this to court, you win, 100 %. But no Publisher can be arsed to do it. Bethesda has fucked up.

Also, some really shitty posts in this thread. Get educated. Germany doesn't deny it's history at all, unlike some other countries ;)

 

[L Thammy]

In an attempt to comply with their laws...

What is the point of this distinction?

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It's been noted in there there that was absolutely no necessity for them to change "Jews" to "traitors". If the changes don't actually have to do with German law, than the distinction between them being Bethesda's idea and German law is important, isn't it?

 

[Schnitzelfee]

In an attempt to comply with their laws...

What is the point of this distinction?

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they only had to removethe Swastikas and a few other symbols from the game according to the law... not changing the whole game for... reasons...

but its not really surprising, cause they did the same with the last one...

and the real problem is that they dont allow to redeem UK or US versions on Steam to play the uncut version in Germany, which would be absolutely legal tho

 

[Tya]

And yet they still have enormous populations of neo-nazis

It's totally working Germany

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Do you have an issue with how Germany deals with its past in general, or is this just a hot take about a video game and a country you know little about?

 

[BernardoOne]

In an attempt to comply with their laws...

What is the point of this distinction?

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No, it isn't, there is literally nothing in the law that requires this types of change even remotely.

And yet they still have enormous populations of neo-nazis

It's totally working Germany

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Is the_donald your go to source for world news or something?

 

[Midas]

Germany is so fucking weird when it comes to the nazis and their symbols.

 

[Schnitzelfee]

we are actually not weird at all with that stuff...

 

[Bitch Pudding]

No, it isn't, there is literally nothing in the law that requires this types of change even remotely.

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Not so sure about that with regard to video games (the potential negative connotation could have played a role here). As I said, that doesn't apply for movies in Germany. In South Park episodes for example Cartman frequently uses the slur "stupid Jew" towards Kyle.

 

[Muffin]

Germany is so fucking weird when it comes to the nazis and their symbols.

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One hot take after the other.

It's absolutely not weird to forbid Nazi symbols in the public. Exceptions for art forms are there, there's just nobody trying to get that exception for video games too.

 

[Mabase]

They don't own up to their mistakes. They were forced to own up to their mistakes.

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Boy, oh boy.

 

[Monogatari]

Boy, oh boy.

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It's true man. If Germany organically got rid of the Nazis do you seriously think it would be the same situation?

 

[donpureevil]

Yes you can say that some of the laws regarding Media here in Germany are antiquated. But to say that Germany hides from its past is ridiculous.

But censorship and (mostly) bad voice acting are luckily avoidable by importing and setting you consoles to english.
I remember some old ps1 games having no blood if you set the game language to german.

 

[Mr.Flufferson]

It really doesn't matter. Germany is very upfront with their past. Anyone playing the game knows it is about Nazis and that Jews were targeted and killed during the holocaust. Even if it isn't explicitly stated, everybody will be able to make those connections while playing.It is not like something bad is going to come of this, they are just trying to not break German law and get sued or offend people.

 

[Toucan]

But censorship and (mostly) bad voice acting are luckily avoidable by importing and setting you consoles to english.

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Unless you play on PC, where Bethesda won't even let you start the game unless you're using a VPN.