g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
834
As a huge fan of history. It still boggles my mind how the greatest continious land empire ever doesn't really get much recognition from people nowadays. Maybe it's because their institutions really didn't last long after they conquered or that thee empire itself started to fracture after Ogedai's death. Or maybe because they also slaughtered and committed genocide on millions of people during their campaigns. But, by hell were they not the most fearsome conquerers the world had ever seen.

The whole rise and expansion of the Mongols under Genghis (And continued invasions by his heirs after his death) is likely the greatest ever in history. Compared to Alexander the Great whose father had laid down most of the ground work forn him...Genghis rose from the steppess of Mongolia to lead a nation of nomads to conquer the known world.

It's a feat that simoly can't be underestimated Without him so much of history would not be the same, whilst so many other civilisations and great conquerors were part of an existing dynasty...the Mongols literally came out of nowhere, as if they were some divine force or alien Invaders sent to punish the people of Earth. Imo, it was the closest real life representation of what a Tyranid or Zerg invasion would have been like. It's just fascinating to read up on so many of the military feats the empire was able to pull off. From the invasion of Eastern Europe by Tsuobotai, the destruction of Baghdad, the subjugation of the Southern Song (who some say were the most advanced civilization at the time). Even their failed ventures were epic and badass in scope, such as attempting to invade Japan twice, I feat considered impossible even by the US during World War II ..and this was during the 13th century.

Just look at this map that compares the Mongol Empire at it's height to the Roman Empire:

3tcqkc8owm611.png


Simply stunning.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
I assume anyone who comes into this thread will be aware of Hardcore History - Wrath of the Khans but if you haven't listened to it then you must.

Edited - had the name wrong
 
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Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
So, the reason the mongol empire isn't looked upon fondly is pretty simple: they destroyed culture, language, knowledge, wealth. They were like a plague of locusts. They did not progress the societies they conquered, but rather regressed them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,636
I've been reading the history of the Mongols as well, they definitely were like historical arsonists as Dan Carlin would say

It might be hard for people to "appreciate" them as their methods were incredibly brutal, although arguments have been made that many contemporaries were equally brutal if not more so, but they should recognize Genghis and his empire as one of the most fascinating and important periods of world history and take lessons from it
 
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g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
834

Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)
 

aceface

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,035
Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)

No one with any sense of historical awareness glorifies any of these empires.
 

Wimps

Member
Oct 27, 2017
467
I assume anyone who comes into this thread will be aware of Hardcore History - Wrath of the Mongols but if you haven't listened to it then you must.
Great tip thanks. Seems to be behind paywall though.

Recently read parts one to three of The Mongoliad. If you're into the Mongols, give it a try. Great books! Written by Neal Stephenson among others.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)

Outside of Britain this really is nonsense.
 

Skytylz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
780
Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)
Those empires existed after the slaughtering for significant periods of times.

Did the mongols really govern the areas they conquered? Or did they conquer and move on, occasionally returning to conquer again.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)

The British and Roman (and French/Portuguese/Spanish) Empires are cornerstones of the Euro-supremicist worldview that Western education promotes (and is built upon). The Mongols, the Caliphate/Ottomans, and even the Chinese dynasties don't fit that narrative.

Did the mongols really govern the areas they conquered?

Yes, to varying degrees.
 
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DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Fuck the Mongols. They were the biggest setback for Asian civilizations and a literal scourge on humanity. Part of the reason that the middle east is still unstable is because of them.

If I can butterfly all the Mongols from history with infinity stones I would do it in a snap.
 

AoM

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,359
Which quite frankly, I don't understand. The British Empire committed mass genocide in India during the Bengal Famine, The Romans pretty much wiped out Gallic culture during Ceasar's Conquest. Yet people glorify these civilizations, and label the Mongols as bloodthirsty asian savages when in reality they did alot for the technological advancement of Europe and Asia (connecting the two contitents together via trade, strengthening the role of the Silk Rode, etc)
Could you go into more detail about these technological advancements? Also, how much did Mongol culture affect the region for the coming decades/centuries/etc.?
 
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g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
834
Fuck the Mongols. They were the biggest setback for Asian civilizations and a literal scourge on humanity. Part of the reason that the middle east is still unstable is because of them.

If I can butterfly all the Mongols from history with infinity stones I would do it in a snap.

I see your point, who knows how Islam would have been like today if the Caliphate's hadn't been checked by the Mongol Conquest. But let's not forget that European colonialism had as much or even more to do with the conflict we see today in the region.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Those empires existed after the slaughtering for significant periods of times.

Did the mongols really govern the areas they conquered? Or did they conquer and move on, occasionally returning to conquer again.
Of course they did, with the most obvious example being the Yuan dynasty in China.

p.s.
FWIW, I'd rather live in Yuan China than under East India Company's rule, easily.
 

Skytylz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
780
Eh, the Brit did slaughtering throughout the entire train
They weren't continuously conquering lands and slaughtering people by the millions. The lack of some kind of maintenance, for lack of a better term, period for the Mongols is why they aren't seen as contributing much to human progress.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
They weren't continuously conquering lands and slaughtering people by the millions. The lack of some kind of maintenance, for lack of a better term, period for the Mongols is why they aren't seen as contributing much to human progress.
I mean that's not the reason The reason is because western Europe control so much of how we do history. Like the death toll of the Brits empire post 1900 is like 10s of millions.
 
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g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
834
They'd never be able to conquer Western Europe as they wouldn't be able to sustain their horse population so far from the steppes.

I would have to slightly disagree. Southern China was a heavily forested region which was slowly conquered by the Mongols over decades. They did however, rely more on mass concription of indigenous infantry auxilaries and siege warfare to subjugate the Song as opposed to the cavalry based invasions of Person/Middle East. One could say that if Ogedai decided to focus all the Mongol forces on the conquest of Western Europe as opposed to the more pressing matter of conquering Southern China, the Mongols may have definitely reached the Atlantic.
 
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g23

g23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
834
And Jesus...I didn't know the hate for the Mongols was so strong here on Era.

You would think that we were discussing Nazi Germany instead of empire that existed 700 years ago!
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
And Jesus...I didn't know the hate for the Mongols was so strong here on Era.

You would think that we were discussing Nazi Germany instead of empire that existed 700 years ago!
It's a weird discussion. Especially when we are appreciating them where's there's really nothing to appreciate outside of some weird military thing
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,909
Probably no one in history slaughtered people as well as the Mongols.

Their death count is astounding. Especially considering they did it by hand.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
And Jesus...I didn't know the hate for the Mongols was so strong here on Era.

You would think that we were discussing Nazi Germany instead of empire that existed 700 years ago!
what would you expect a discussion in 700 years looking back at germany's conquests to look like, though?
 

Doggg

â–˛ Legend â–˛
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Nov 17, 2017
14,634
They were probably responsible for introducing gunpowder to the West (well, the Tatars, anyway), both for good and for ill.
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
Fuck the Mongols. They were the biggest setback for Asian civilizations and a literal scourge on humanity. Part of the reason that the middle east is still unstable is because of them.

If I can butterfly all the Mongols from history with infinity stones I would do it in a snap.

Humanity was a scourge on humanity. As those Civilizations would have probably evolved to do their own genocide conquest if it wasn't the Mongols.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,190
I guess that we couldn't appreciate them in the sense of "Wouldn't be great to see a new Golden Horde today?" but more in the sense than since everybody and their mothers spent so much time fighting wars and conquering others in that era may as well talk about the scope of their army
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
Modern Mongolia is comically low-key given their heritage. They're probably up to something and just biding their time.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,431
I am appalled.

The Mongols slaughtered nearly 5% of the world population at that time.
90% of the Population of Persia
50% of Ukraine
50% of Hungary
30 to 50% of fucking China!
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,573
Thread made me think of

That being said, the Hardcore History series on the subject was pretty fascinating.