LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?

Lackless

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,137
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory rhetoric across a series of posts. Accumulated infractions.
Do you or do you not respect the sacred vision of the creator's of Rape Day. This is a yes or no question.
Yes I do. I also respect how society pushed it away. That's how freedom of expression works. And I'm going to stop responding to you if you're going to ignore literally 100% of my posts that you respond too to ask me another question in a lame attempt to bait me.

Freedom of expression is a good thing and always will be.
 
Oct 28, 2017
448
Yes I do. I also respect how society pushed it away. That's how freedom of expression works. And I'm going to stop responding to you if you're going to ignore literally 100% of my posts that you respond too to ask me another question in a lame attempt to bait me.

Freedom of expression is a good thing and always will be.
Funny how that freedom of expression thing has worked out so well for you and me and so many other cishet folks at the exclusion of others, and not so much for them. Hmm. Maybe...all of these forms of expression are not as free as you claim, and that you are just content with them because it works out just fine for you.
 
Jan 15, 2019
82
I want quality representation over quantity.

It doesnt matter if we have 100 characters if they are written by people who cant write from an LGBT perspective and are only thrown in to fit some status quo.

Developers shouldnt feel pressured to jam representation into their game and doing so ends up with bad representation that brings down the quality of the game in the end
 
Oct 27, 2017
534
KC
it should be whatever the writers and directors wants
Pretty much this. The creatives should be free to create their vision. The way to get more representation in all media is to encourage and enable a more diverse group of content creators. More representation on the creative side will result in more representation in the actual media being created. We also need to make sure that they are free to create their vision, not some corporate vision.
 

Lackless

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,137
Funny how that freedom of expression thing has worked out so well for you and me and so many other cishet folks at the exclusion of others, and not so much for others. Hmm. Maybe...all of these forms of expression are not as free as you claim, and that you are just content with them because it works out just fine for you.
The LGBT community has only been getting more and more representation in media for more than a decade now and it's growing fast. And you know how that started? Freedom of expression.

It's a beautiful thing :)

Keep it rolling and I'm happy that your ideal soceity of less freedom of expression will never come true because it's ridiculous.



Peace.
 
Oct 28, 2017
448
I want quality representation over quantity.

It doesnt matter if we have 100 characters if they are written by people who cant write from an LGBT perspective and are only thrown in to fit some status quo.

Developers shouldnt feel pressured to jam representation into their game and doing so ends up with bad representation that brings down the quality of the game in the end
Are you equally opposed to all of this shoe-horned representation of cishet chars?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,586
I want quality representation over quantity.

It doesnt matter if we have 100 characters if they are written by people who cant write from an LGBT perspective and are only thrown in to fit some status quo.

Developers shouldnt feel pressured to jam representation into their game and doing so ends up with bad representation that brings down the quality of the game in the end
Counterpoint: No one ever says this about the millions of terrible heterosexual relationships that pop up in games.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
Yes I do. I also respect how society pushed it away. That's how freedom of expression works. And I'm going to stop responding to you if you're going to ignore literally 100% of my posts that you respond too to ask me another question in a lame attempt to bait me.

Freedom of expression is a good thing and always will be.
If you really believe the vast majority of protagonists being white cishet men is "freedom of expression", and not basically dictated by the publisher/PR department, then you're kidding yourself.
Maybe read up on this article about a developer struggling to find a publisher for their game that wasn't starring a white cishet man. They wanted to use that freedom of expression to tell a story about a woman, but kept getting turned down and told extremely stupid shit. This article is from 2013, but 6 years later, it barely changed.

It's easy, from a place where you are constantly getting catered to, to say "Yeah well freedom of expression" and act like there's nothing wrong. To suggest that if minorities wanted more representation, they should step up and make it themselves. But that's completely ignoring the reality that we do not live in an equal society where everyone is given the same opportunities. And especially the games industry is still one of the most heavily white male cishet dominated fields of work in general.
Minorities need the support of the majority. It's as simple as that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Saskatchewan, Canada
No RePrEsEnTaTiOn QuOtAs! LeT tHeM mAkE wHaT tHeY wAnT!

I'm not even one of the ones saying 'story only purposes'. I just think it's weird and backwards to say to devs "You have to include such and such because we need to hit this number". We do need more diversity in gaming but it should be done by pushing more LGBT people, women etc. to get into the industry and make games for the communities that they want to make them for. Forcing people to include things they don't want to to meet a statistic is just gonna create bitterness.
I just don't think the solution is to say we must meet this percentage so this character needs to be gay no exceptions.

There's a world of difference between pushing for more inclusive characters and games (which I'm all for) and saying things like "This straight character needs to be gay because we have to have 50/50 representation".

I think the game industry has come a long way even in the last 5 years and will hopefully continue to diversify as time goes on. Even having Ellie as gay is a huge step forward. There is no way a triple a game would've had a lesbian as the main character 5 years ago.
 
Jan 15, 2019
82
Are you equally opposed to all of this shoe-horned representation of cishet chars?
Im going to need a more specific example before I can really answer your question.

Are you refering to "straight" being the default for most characters, even when their sexuality has no baring on the story or something else?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Saskatchewan, Canada
RESPECT THE CREATORS' SACRED VISIONS! Please ignore that just almost all somehow coincidentally happen to be visions for cishet chars despite being cishet not actually mattering to their chars or the narratives they participate in!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_heterosexuality
Ok dude you keep bringing up this point over and over but does it not make sense when the vast majority of people on earth are straight that media is going to reflect that? People relate to others like themselves and so naturally when the majority of game developers and their audience are straight it's bound to be the default. What point are you trying to make here?

I am 100% for more representation in games but creating a quota like this thread postulates is in my opinion not the way to do it and would do more bad than good.

I can say myself as someone who likes to write stories and such I am incredibly hesitant to write from the point of view of a queer person, or a woman, or a POC because as a white straight dude I know nothing about their struggles, culture, lives etc. and honestly feel like I would be insulting people of those groups by doing so. Any character I try to write would almost certainly come out as offensive in some way because I have no experiences to draw on.

I can imagine this pattern repeats itself in the gaming industry as well because of how white and male it is. People are always going to be most comfortable writing stories about people like themselves for obvious reasons. It's much easier to create and flesh out a character when you have your own experiences and life to take inspiration from. That's why the majority of characters in games and movies are straight.

Setting aside how a quota would even work, do you really think after reading everything I previously mentioned that it would be a good thing? Because I can see it leading to 2 things:

1) People becoming bitter and resentful that they need to do things a certain way and compromise their original vision for the story
2) At best token gay characters and at worst downright offensive ones created by a team of white guys who don't know what the hell they're doing or talking about when it comes to these characters.

A quota for representation is a band aid to a much bigger problem. And that bigger problem is how few minorities are in the industry right now. We've made leaps and bounds over the past few years but it's still far from adequate. A much more productive way to deal with this is encouraging minorities to get into game design by calling out it's toxic culture and showing your support for games created by minorities. It will be a slow process for sure but would lead to a much greater result in the end.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,533
Ok dude you keep bringing up this point over and over but does it not make sense when the vast majority of people on earth are straight that media is going to reflect that? People relate to others like themselves and so naturally when the majority of game developers and their audience are straight it's bound to be the default. What point are you trying to make here?
The point is that a great deal of straight characters exist in non-romance narratives, literally for no reason (or at the ironic behest of corporate meddling, which is functionally no different from having a quota, but quotas seem fine when directed towards characters of a majority status) while trying to get an LGBT character into media is like trying to wring blood from a stone. The conditions under which straight and LGBT characters are considered for inclusion are not equivalent. Thus this appeal to freedom of expression rings hollow.

I can say myself as someone who likes to write stories and such I am incredibly hesitant to write from the point of view of a queer person, or a woman, or a POC because as a white straight dude I know nothing about their struggles, culture, lives etc. and honestly feel like I would be insulting people of those groups by doing so. Any character I try to write would almost certainly come out as offensive in some way because I have no experiences to draw on.
You could...you know...ask minorities for advice and insight, like any responsible artist would. You are on the Internet. No excuses.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,319
The In-Between
If you really believe the vast majority of protagonists being white cishet men is "freedom of expression", and not basically dictated by the publisher/PR department, then you're kidding yourself.
Maybe read up on this article about a developer struggling to find a publisher for their game that wasn't starring a white cishet man. They wanted to use that freedom of expression to tell a story about a woman, but kept getting turned down and told extremely stupid shit. This article is from 2013, but 6 years later, it barely changed.

It's easy, from a place where you are constantly getting catered to, to say "Yeah well freedom of expression" and act like there's nothing wrong. To suggest that if minorities wanted more representation, they should step up and make it themselves. But that's completely ignoring the reality that we do not live in an equal society where everyone is given the same opportunities. And especially the games industry is still one of the most heavily white male cishet dominated fields of work in general.
Minorities need the support of the majority. It's as simple as that.
This is literally pointless. Almost every LGBT thread, someone comes in and goes “MUH CREATORS VISION.” Even when it’s been explained over and over how making games actually works.

They don’t care about what sexuality a character is as long as it’s good™️

They don’t want to force anything because heaven forbid creators have to put in the effort to create gay characters.

Apparently, creating gays is some impossible feat that would instantly ruin a writer’s (very heterosexual) vision and they can’t consult and educate themselves to portray believable characters that aren’t hetero.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,303
In games with stories and whatnot, I’m all for representation.

But as someone that typically plays games without stories or with minimal stories, I’d prefer them not to have any gender or sexual preference at all. Like, Mario to me doesn’t need to rescue peach, I’d prefer there is no story scenes at all just drop me in 1-1 like the old days. And when I beat the game if there is no princess I’m rescuing that’s fine too. Mario’s motivation for jumping on goombas doesn’t need to be explained at all but it definitely doesn’t need to be explained that he’s jumping on shit because he wants peach’s peach.

So to say there should be a quota of types of people in games I think is silly. Sure make Mario available to pick as black or asian or what have you, you could make a Maria character too. Or let me choose Mario but have him look like Maria. All this is fine it doesn’t change the game at all. But like in this example and in most games I play, I want far less story and with that means less lbgtq, not because I don’t want representation, but because I don’t care if my characters are even sexual beings.
 
Jan 15, 2019
82
The point is that a great deal of straight characters exist in non-romance narratives, literally for no reason (or at the ironic behest of corporate meddling, which is functionally no different from having a quota, but quotas seem fine when directed towards characters of a majority status) while trying to get an LGBT character into media is like trying to wring blood from a stone. The conditions under which straight and LGBT characters are considered for inclusion are not equivalent. Thus this appeal to freedom of expression rings hollow.
Are these characters in non romantic scenarios "openly straight" as in its stated they are cis? If not why do you assume they are?

Take soldier 76 from Overwatch as an example. A lot of idiots were mad they "turned" him gay, but the fact was he was always gay his sexuality was just never a defining element of his character. There are plenty of characters that could be gay and you automatically assuming they are cis unless they say state otherwise is not the writers fault.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,016
Are these characters in non romantic scenarios "openly straight" as in its stated they are cis? If not why do you assume they are?

Take soldier 76 from Overwatch as an example. A lot of idiots were mad they "turned" him gay, but the fact was he was always gay his sexuality was just never a defining element of his character. There are plenty of characters that could be gay and you automatically assuming they are cis unless they say state otherwise is not the writers fault.
Very good point.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
Are these characters in non romantic scenarios "openly straight" as in its stated they are cis? If not why do you assume they are?

Take soldier 76 from Overwatch as an example. A lot of idiots were mad they "turned" him gay, but the fact was he was always gay his sexuality was just never a defining element of his character. There are plenty of characters that could be gay and you automatically assuming they are cis unless they say state otherwise is not the writers fault.
Soldier never was "always gay". They tacked him being gay on later in the process. It's the same kind of thing that JK Rowling did with Dumbledore.
And yet, neither Overwatch, nor Fantastic Beasts - which addresses Dumbledore's past - show the respective characters' relationships or portray them as LGBT+ in the actual main thing.

Like, I don't want to knock too much on Blizzard because out of most games, Overwatch is one of the most diverse when it comes to gender and PoC representation, but the way they've been handling the two gay characters they have - not by implementing their sexuality into anything in the game (not even some throwaway lines/interactions before a match) - but outside of the game. With their peripheral story stuff, that doesn't even reach most of the players, it kind of feels hollow.

And yet, despite that, we have to cheer for Blizzard to do this at all because there's so, so few LGBT+ characters in games.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,130
I doubt only 10% of worlwide population is gay.

My university is like 30% gay (source: my ass), seriously I go to the mall and my gaydar screams every now and then it is crazy
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Saskatchewan, Canada
The point is that a great deal of straight characters exist in non-romance narratives, literally for no reason (or at the ironic behest of corporate meddling, which is functionally no different from having a quota, but quotas seem fine when directed towards characters of a majority status) while trying to get an LGBT character into media is like trying to wring blood from a stone. The conditions under which straight and LGBT characters are considered for inclusion are not equivalent. Thus this appeal to freedom of expression rings hollow.
There is a reason more characters are straight though. I explained why. And I'm not disagreeing with you that's it's harder to get LGBT characters in games. I just think the solution to the problem is to get more LGBT people in game development so that doesn't happen. Introducing a quota would be putting a bandaid on an open festering wound, it may cover up the problem but it's not really doing anything about it.


You could...you know...ask minorities for advice and insight, like any responsible artist would. You are on the Internet. No excuses.
I still wouldn't feel comfortable. There's so much that goes into a well written character it would take way more than a few chats with various minorities to get it right. And hearing about something versus experiencing it yourself are two very different things, the latter of which lends itself much better to writing a character that also has to go through those things.

Aside from that I genuinely don't think it's my place to write about minorities when I'm not one. There's currently a whole thread in off topic about Alyssa Milanos comments and why they're so wrong. She's not queer or a person of color and therefore has no right calling herself one as she's never faced the struggles any of them have. The same logic would apply here. It would be insulting for me to try and write from a minorities perspective when I haven't earned that right in any way. It's not my story to tell.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
I mean, what else do you think happened? There was never a single reference towards Soldier being possibly queer in any interaction, artwork, anything. To top it off, Soldier is also a character that Chris Metzen created way back in the 90s for a comic book.
I get that Michael Chu is a lot more concerned with representation and minority characters, and that Blizzard in general tries to be inclusive, but I simply do not think that, at the earliest until Chu took over as lead writer for Overwatch, Soldier 76 (or Tracer for that matter) being queer was actually a thing.
The fact that both Tracer's and Soldier's queerness still is only represented solely through the comics/stories outside of the game emphasizes this point, as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,586
still wouldn't feel comfortable. There's so much that goes into a well written character it would take way more than a few chats with various minorities to get it right. And hearing about something versus experiencing it yourself are two very different things, the latter of which lends itself much better to writing a character that also has to go through those things.
People almost exclusively write about characters that are different than them. That's literally the case for every character that isn't a painfully obvious self-insert. And no one's wringing their hands about how they can't properly represent some space marine or gruff ex-cop just because they aren't one of those.

Like, if I wanted to get into writing, I wouldn't feel like I couldn't write about anyone that isn't a cis straight white male because the alternative is a story that's fucking boring, much less lacking in diversity to an insane degree.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,016
I mean, what else do you think happened? There was never a single reference towards Soldier being possibly queer in any interaction, artwork, anything. To top it off, Soldier is also a character that Chris Metzen created way back in the 90s for a comic book.
I get that Michael Chu is a lot more concerned with representation and minority characters, and that Blizzard in general tries to be inclusive, but I simply do not think that, at the earliest until Chu took over as lead writer for Overwatch, Soldier 76 (or Tracer for that matter) being queer was actually a thing.
The fact that both Tracer's and Soldier's queerness still is only represented solely through the comics/stories outside of the game emphasizes this point, as well.
How would you go about properly referencing a character's sexual orientation if romantic relationships or flirting are not a key part of their character? You shouldn't have to portray every canonically gay character doing "gay things" for them to legitimately be considered gay.
 
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Jan 15, 2019
82
Soldier never was "always gay". They tacked him being gay on later in the process. It's the same kind of thing that JK Rowling did with Dumbledore.
And yet, neither Overwatch, nor Fantastic Beasts - which addresses Dumbledore's past - show the respective characters' relationships or portray them as LGBT+ in the actual main thing.

Like, I don't want to knock too much on Blizzard because out of most games, Overwatch is one of the most diverse when it comes to gender and PoC representation, but the way they've been handling the two gay characters they have - not by implementing their sexuality into anything in the game (not even some throwaway lines/interactions before a match) - but outside of the game. With their peripheral story stuff, that doesn't even reach most of the players, it kind of feels hollow.

And yet, despite that, we have to cheer for Blizzard to do this at all because there's so, so few LGBT+ characters in games.
How do you at what stage him being gay was "tacked on"?

The significant other of both Tracer and 76 exist only in the comics (so far), so what lines would you even expect them to have? Mentioning being gay randomly to characters they are not romantically interested in? Does that sound like good representation to you? I dont introduce myself as gay unless if asked or if it is relevant to the conversation.

Overwatch is pretty barebones on story as it is so its not surprising. If all other characters brought up their relationships with nongame characters except LGBT ones I would agree but that isnt the case for Overwatch.

I actually think the overwatch method is great . The game about shooting eachother is exactly that, and there is extra lore and character development out there but the game itself focuses on being a fun game first and foremost.

Also as for Dumbledore the last book definently suggests hes into Grindlewald so I wouldnt say it was added after the fact. Haven't seen the newest movie though but would agree its dissapointing if that aspect doesnt come into play at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Saskatchewan, Canada
People almost exclusively write about characters that are different than them. That's literally the case for every character that isn't a painfully obvious self-insert. And no one's wringing their hands about how they can't properly represent some space marine or gruff ex-cop just because they aren't one of those.

Like, if I wanted to get into writing, I wouldn't feel like I couldn't write about anyone that isn't a cis straight white male because the alternative is a story that's fucking boring, much less lacking in diversity to an insane degree.
I said I don't like to write from the perspective of a minority, not that I would never include them.

Also writing about a space marine or cop isn't the same in my eyes because it's an occupation that can be filled by anyone from any background.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
How would you go about properly referencing a character's sexual orientation if romantic relationships are not a key part of their character? You shouldn't have to portray every canonically gay character doing "gay things" for them to legitimately be considered gay.
How do you at what stage him being gay was "tacked on"?

The significant other of both Tracer and 76 exist only in the comics (so far), so what lines would you even expect them to have? Mentioning being gay randomly to characters they are not romantically interested in? Does that sound like good representation to you? I dont introduce myself as gay unless if asked or if it is relevant to the conversation.

Overwatch is pretty barebones on story as it is so its not surprising. If all other characters brought up their relationships with nongame characters except LGBT ones I would agree but that isnt the case for Overwatch.

I actually think the overwatch method is great . The game about shooting eachother is exactly that, and there is extra lore and character development out there but the game itself focuses on being a fun game first and foremost.

Also as for Dumbledore the last book definently suggests hes into Grindlewald so I wouldnt say it was added after the fact. Haven't seen the newest movie though but would agree its dissapointing if that aspect doesnt come into play at all.
You're completely ignoring the fact that there are voice line interactions between the characters. And they have added interactions based on story events and new characters/locations being introduced to reflect this. So why can't they do that about the queer characters?
You could have Ana and Soldier talking about his old flame, something like "Have you checked up on him?" and him going "Yeah, he's doing fine. He's happy." or whatever.
Or for Tracer, since she and her girlfriend went to see Winston for Christmas, they could have an interaction going "I haven't seen your girlfriend since the holidays, how's she doing?".

That's what I'm asking for. Not Tracer's trails leaving behind a rainbow (though that would be amazing) or Soldier getting into drag (although that also would be kind of amazing). Not either character rambling on about just how gay they are. Just little tidbits of lore being trickled into the interactions. Just like how Widow talks about her dead husband, for instance.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,533
Are these characters in non romantic scenarios "openly straight" as in its stated they are cis?
Any guy in an action game who has sex with a woman or has an actual girlfriend/ex/widow is decidedly this. There is pretty much no reason you can't switch the genders of the partners around in these stories and still have the games work as intended.

If not why do you assume they are?
Why are you assuming I'm assuming anything when I've never said anything of the sort?

As for the Soldier example, you're talking to someone who has extensively argued on the Blizzard forums to outright homophobes that not only is Soldier being gay not a retcon (because he was never revealed as straight beforehand), but that I even frikkin' called it when Chu revealed that there were other LGBT characters in the fold besides Tracer, that if a male character was gonna be gay it would've been Jack due to it being somewhat groundbreaking in the homophobic cesspool that is gaming culture. I'm no stranger to this example, nor much else regarding Overwatch lore.

Regardless, I'm talking about characters who are confirmed to be in or have been in straight relationships. There is- honestly- usually never any reason they HAVE to be straight for the sake of the narrative (just like there's usually no reason they have to be white guys either). They're arbitrary characteristics that are specifically chosen based on the backhanded-yet-ever-so-slightly true perception that gaming audiences can't relate to anyone outside of that little demographic bubble (even though minorities have been putting in the work to enjoy characters outside of their demographics since gaming was a thing) and thus games won't sell otherwise.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
As for the Soldier example, you're talking to someone who has extensively argued on the Blizzard forums to outright homophobes that not only is Soldier being gay not a retcon (because he was never revealed as straight beforehand), but that I even frikkin' called it when Chu revealed that there were other LGBT characters in the fold besides Tracer, that if a male character was gonna be gay it would've been Jack due to it being somewhat groundbreaking in the homophobic cesspool that is gaming culture. I'm no stranger to this example, nor much else regarding Overwatch lore.
Out of curiosity, do you think Tracer/Soldier being queer was a thing before Chu became lead writer?
Because I think that was almost entirely Michael Chu's doing. He seems very determined to be inclusive and also is aware of gender issues - one of the side characters in the comics is non-binary after all.

Meanwhile, no other Blizzard games have queer characters (to my knowledge at least).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,016
You're completely ignoring the fact that there are voice line interactions between the characters. And they have added interactions based on story events and new characters/locations being introduced to reflect this. So why can't they do that about the queer characters?
You could have Ana and Soldier talking about his old flame, something like "Have you checked up on him?" and him going "Yeah, he's doing fine."
Or for Tracer, since she and her girlfriend went to see Winston for Christmas, they could have an interaction going "I haven't seen your girlfriend since the holidays, how's she doing?".

That's what I'm asking for. Not Tracer's trails leaving behind a rainbow (though that would be amazing) or Soldier getting into drag (although that also would be kind of amazing).
I haven't played Overwatch enough to know, but is it common for characters to discuss their romantic relationships mid-match? Even if that's the case, looking at Soldier, who seems to be portrayed as a stoic military type that would keep his personal life private... I don't think an interaction like that would fit his character.

I also checked some of the interactions on the wiki and Lucio does mention Tracer's girlfriend in one of their convos.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
I haven't played Overwatch enough to know, but is it common for characters to discuss their romantic relationships mid-match? Even if that's the case, looking at Soldier, who seems to be portrayed as a stoic military type that would keep his personal life private... I don't think an interaction like that would fit his character.
It's common for the characters to share certain character-specific blurbs with each other. Including characters that, in the lore, having an antagonistic relationship with each other (e.g. Tracer and Widowmaker, or Symmetra and Lucio) referencing events from the lore out of the comics and animated shorts. Widowmaker references her dead husband, and there was an interaction between Genji and Mercy - who have been portrayed as being interested into each other - sharing chocolates for Valentine's Day.

I don't see why Ana/Soldier or Tracer/Winston couldn't share a character interaction like that referencing the respective story bits either.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,533
Out of curiosity, do you think Tracer/Soldier being queer was a thing before Chu became lead writer?
Because I think that was almost entirely Michael Chu's doing. He seems very determined to be inclusive and also is aware of gender issues - one of the side characters in the comics is non-binary after all.
I didn't know Chu wasn't always lead writer, so I can't make a throughline between him and the LGBT reveals as a result. But assuming that is true, I don't think it particularly reflects badly on the rest of the team. The cast started out pretty diverse in respectful ways, and they've been very open to changing the characters based upon the feedback of the fandom (I will never forget the excitement around Lucio's Portuguese being added.) They're good folks considering, but if Chu specifically spearheaded the effort to make the two biggest mascots gay, I salute him!

I don't see why Ana/Soldier or Tracer/Winston couldn't share a character interaction like that referencing the respective story bits either.
Tracer mentions Emily in a general set-up interaction. Also, if Lucio is on a team with Tracer during Winter Wonderland, he may ask her and Emily to go skiing.
 

Raging Spaniard

Artist at EA Star Wars
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,186
Its just a baseless argument to want "equal" representation, thats crazy.

Theyre games, not documentaries. The world shouldn't be set on fire if every character in a game is gay, trans, ace or whatever. Same with race.

It just comes across as the kind of argument racist, sexist and homophobes make.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
I didn't know Chu wasn't always lead writer, so I can't make a throughline between him and the LGBT reveals as a result. But assuming that is true, I don't think it particularly reflects badly on the rest of the team. The cast started out pretty diverse in respectful ways, and they've been very open to changing the characters based upon the feedback of the fandom (I will never forget the excitement around Lucio's Portuguese being added.) They're good folks considering, but if Chu specifically spearheaded the effort to make the two biggest mascots gay, I salute him!
I want to say that it initially was Chris Metzen, but I can't find info to correlate it. I might've been mistaken, I could've sworn Michael Chu was only one of the main writers but took over the sole responsibility some time after the game launched (or maybe shortly before it).

Tracer mentions Emily in a general set-up interaction. Also, if Lucio is on a team with Tracer during Winter Wonderland, he may ask her and Emily to go skiing.
Oh she does? I never had that voiceline pop up!
In that case, I retract my statement about Tracer in particular, and commend Blizzard for introducing that part of her lore into the game.
They still should do an interaction between Ana and Soldier tho.
 
Jan 15, 2019
82
You're completely ignoring the fact that there are voice line interactions between the characters. And they have added interactions based on story events and new characters/locations being introduced to reflect this. So why can't they do that about the queer characters?
You could have Ana and Soldier talking about his old flame, something like "Have you checked up on him?" and him going "Yeah, he's doing fine. He's happy." or whatever.
Or for Tracer, since she and her girlfriend went to see Winston for Christmas, they could have an interaction going "I haven't seen your girlfriend since the holidays, how's she doing?".

That's what I'm asking for. Not Tracer's trails leaving behind a rainbow (though that would be amazing) or Soldier getting into drag (although that also would be kind of amazing). Not either character rambling on about just how gay they are. Just little tidbits of lore being trickled into the interactions. Just like how Widow talks about her dead husband, for instance.
Fair enough I can see how there would be room for it to fit naturally in game. I still think in the grand spectrum of thing throw away mid match lines are just nice little extras so its not a huge deal they are not there but it would be nice if Blizzard included them.

You would have my vote for Soldier 76 in drag tho.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,215
People need to get this idea out of their heads that there's some sacred aspect to a creator's vision we should not interfere with or try to influence, especially in a highly collaborative and group effort like games. First off these ideas change and are "compromised" a thousand times during the creative/development process, very little is sacred or unchanged in any creative process. And secondly a character's race, gender and orientation are rarely ever that important to either the story or the creator, let alone something that is ever really given a great deal of forethought or consideration, especially for non-leads. Unconsciously defaulting to white cishet men is a real thing that even minority creatives sometimes fall in to.
I know, right?

"I think Tracer should be nerfed"
"There should be more real time with pause games and fewer turn based games"
"Paper Mario Sticker Star would be much better if they'd have just made another standard Paper Mario game"
"God of War would be better off without Atreus being so whiny."

Apparently all of these are valid feedback, but when I say

"Games should have more gay characters"

Suddenly that's impinging on creative freedom?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,621
Do any of the straight overwatch character talk about sexual relationships in their blurbs?
Widowmaker talks about her dead husband.
Genji and Mercy had a Valentine's Day blurb referencing their relationship/interest into each other.
We have 2 pairs of parent+child characters (Ana/Pharah and Torbjörn/Brigitte), whose presence inherently emphasizes the parent character's straightness.

So, yes.
 
Feb 8, 2019
109
Do people genuinely not understand the meaning behind the question “If you don’t question the inclusion of a straight guy then why do you question the inclusion of a non straight guy?”

Like come on, “most developers are straight” isn’t an excuse because that’s based in some silly reasoning that only LGBT people can and should write about LGBT characters. Not to mention I’m sure LGBT people write about straight characters all the time. It can hard sure but vector calculation can be pretty hard too, doesn’t mean you just don’t make 3D games anymore.

Some of you have a double standard. You’re not being a realist, you’re not being logical, you just have a double standard. This doesn’t make you a terrible person or anything or some sort of bigot, but you should accept that you have it at the very least.

Also as mentioned above, stop with the creative freedom bullshit. If you have ever suggested a game does something differently because you don’t like how it does things then you are doing the same thing that you accuse others of.