That is the proposition of this thread, however.
The post I originally quoted reflects how I view the creative process should always be.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2840
- Start date
The post I originally quoted reflects how I view the creative process should always be.
Let's just say the DLC was a bit controversial with how it handled the sexualities of the player characters.
I would hate to think that gay characters are being added against a checklist.
Add a lot of them. Have entire games that are gay. Don't worry about meeting some arbitrary percentage.
Add a lot of them. Have entire games that are gay. Don't worry about meeting some arbitrary percentage.
Oof. Painfully bad take. So Gone Home is a waifu game? Did you play it? (I guess not)
Too the moon as well?
Sounds like your self limiting.
The proposition of this thread is a fundamentally harmless round of theorizing ways to improve things and has literally no chance of ever impacting how game devs create their art.
Queer characters will never be forced into games, they're too busy getting forced out of them.
As far as I'm concerned, they all are.
And no one will convince me otherwise.
I'd seen controversy mentioned, but kind of immediately tuned out the topic due to spoilers.
I believe those were simply two different examples of works where relationships are relevant to the characters within the context of the work as a whole. Sexuality is relevant in Gone Home because it's story relevant. Sexuality is relevant in "waifu games" (I'm going to assume they're referring to dating sim style VNs here) because the concept of the game is about dating. I don't believe they were implying Gone Home is a "waifu game".
Now we need a similar thing but for gay men. Can you imagine if Gears of War, Halo or an Uncharted spinoff featured a gay man and his partner as prominently as tlou2 seems to? The salt.
I think anything forced on devs is awful so I would completely agree with your first paragraph. I just don't think the solution is to say we must meet this percentage so this character needs to be gay no exceptions.
There's a world of difference between pushing for more inclusive characters and games (which I'm all for) and saying things like "This straight character needs to be gay because we have to have 50/50 representation".
I think the game industry has come a long way even in the last 5 years and will hopefully continue to diversify as time goes on. Even having Ellie as gay is a huge step forward. There is no way a triple a game would've had a lesbian as the main character 5 years ago.
Creators should be free to create the characters they want to create. That said, we should be intentionally giving more chances to creators who are black, asian, LGBTQ+, etc. If all of your creators are white and straight, you're going to end up with mostly white and straight characters, because that's just how the world is to them.
It's relatively easy to relate to a story about someone else and their struggles, it's very hard to WRITE for them without having experienced their situations however.
It's relatively easy to relate to a story about someone else and their struggles, it's very hard to WRITE for them without having experienced their situations however.
Man a globetrotting adventure game with a cannon gay lead would be awesome. We absolutely need some awesome gay action heroes in games.
Salt? ....a Gears of War or Call of Duty game with a gay, male protagonist will provoke a meltdown iof intergalactic proportions.
There would be a bigger backlash but you could do it. If you did it similar to TLOU2, via hinting it in the first game, then actually embracing it in the second game. It's probably easier to ease players into it when they're already invested in the characters.
Maybe not with gearsand certainly not Halo, but I feel like Call of Duty could do it.
Also wanted to remind everyone that before we all go patting Naughty Dog on the back for a woke job well done that Ellie's girlfriend is almost certainly going to die a horrific and violent death and Ellie will be alone and miserable the rest of the game like so many gay characters before her.
"Waifu kind of games"? Visual novels? Everyone should play a good visual novel once too, as the good ones have romance too.
I just think they haven't played any of these games or type of game with such blanket statements.
Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I haven't posted here so far because I just wanted to see what everybody thought about what I asked so I could learn from the replies. I noticed the conversation has partly gone to whether we should encourage existing straight/cis developers to add LGBT characters or if LGBT people need to be empowered to make their own games.
I'll use an example to illustrate my next question. In Weiss' thread about "Queer Men in Gaming", the Tales of Zestiria weird "half and half" stance on whether Sorey and Mikleo, two of the game's main characters, were a couple.
I've tried, but I don't really think game dev is meant for me. Does this make me a bad person for still wanting something inspirational to people like me (it would have been inspirational when I was younger) such as a feel-good game like the above with a gay relationship, except the relationship was explicitly stated? I mean, games like FFIX did the exact same thing for straight love with zero controversy, and not only would a romantic relationship like Zidane/Garnet's be good just as it is, but adding an extra element of gay representation would really make me feel vindicated about all those times I used to feel like a weirdo and that nobody was like me.
I'm happy that people are thinking of empowering LGBT people to make their own games that adequately represent them, because that is something that is also needed, but I can't be the superhero for every time I need rescuing, and I know that applies to lots of other people too. Is it wrong to say that "I think something like this should exist" even if I can't actually make it exist?
I'll use an example to illustrate my next question. In Weiss' thread about "Queer Men in Gaming", the Tales of Zestiria weird "half and half" stance on whether Sorey and Mikleo, two of the game's main characters, were a couple.
I've tried, but I don't really think game dev is meant for me. Does this make me a bad person for still wanting something inspirational to people like me (it would have been inspirational when I was younger) such as a feel-good game like the above with a gay relationship, except the relationship was explicitly stated? I mean, games like FFIX did the exact same thing for straight love with zero controversy, and not only would a romantic relationship like Zidane/Garnet's be good just as it is, but adding an extra element of gay representation would really make me feel vindicated about all those times I used to feel like a weirdo and that nobody was like me.
I'm happy that people are thinking of empowering LGBT people to make their own games that adequately represent them, because that is something that is also needed, but I can't be the superhero for every time I need rescuing, and I know that applies to lots of other people too. Is it wrong to say that "I think something like this should exist" even if I can't actually make it exist?
If I were making a game set in the modern US, I'd be fixated on ensuring I had like 10-20% black characters (depending on location), about 10% gay, and about 50% women, along with a smattering of people from other ethnicities and other minority groups (e.g. transgender people). I find games packed with straight, white dudes so disjointing and unrealistic, it breaks the immersion for me. I legitimately start wondering if one of the dudes is closeted or just masc AF.
I'm a data analyst with a linguistics degree and a boner for demographics. I'm not going to argue about numbers, but I'd definitely want to see more realistic distributions of sexuality/genders/races etc in games. Regardless of what those stats are, the answer is definitely a resounding "more than we have now".
I'm a data analyst with a linguistics degree and a boner for demographics. I'm not going to argue about numbers, but I'd definitely want to see more realistic distributions of sexuality/genders/races etc in games. Regardless of what those stats are, the answer is definitely a resounding "more than we have now".
There is a distressing trend where queer characters are only allowed to exist if it's in miserable, "mature" adult works.
The only kids game I can think of with openly queer characters is Undertale with Undyne/Alphys, Mettaton, and the two Royal Guards.
Don't worry, I'm sure nothing bad's going to happen to the Jewish girl named Dina in this overly narcissistic revenge based game filled with Torah symbolism.
Hey, Bill is still alive!
Oh right, he's also alone... His partner died.
Bill's a step above the rest of the pile in that he openly came out to us, but at the end of the day it's still a gay dude with a dead husband. Mind, I'm not ripping on TLOU for having dead loved ones in a game about the apocalypse.
I don't want queer characters to be relegated only to uwu soft bean magical fantasy lands of happiness and sunshine, but it feels like the tonal opposite is the only thing they're allowed.
Make 'em gay AND black and keep doing it until all the pieces of shit give up on the hobby all together.
Honestly it's weird that Janelle Monae doesn't have a video game yet. Prince has a video game!
Oh, my fault for not seeing your previous comment.
100% agree with the signal boosting queer creators (and for that matter, any other members of marginalized groups). Sufficiently acceptable representation is pretty vague (lol) but i can understand if you can't won't put a number behind it. And I think the whole argument around why characters need to be xyz is a lot more complicated than most people understand or admit.
Progress is gonna be super slow for a while, until a lot more talented creators from all marginalized groups filter through to these roles and create great content to influence people. The great payoff is that at some point, inclusive and varied content will find a balance and begin to proliferate to the point that it won't be such a shock to the system of homophobes/bigots/indifferent-types. The balance will just be there, the issue will begin to fade and thankfully, so will these debates.
This is honestly a big problem, and one of the reasons why Life is Strange really frustrated me. I think the big problem is that cannon LGBT characters seem to mostly be in "dramatic" games, that like to focus on angst or misery. Fun action games like Uncharted would be a good template for LGBT heroes. I don't think that dramas are bad, but I wish there was a lighter more fun alternative.
With Bill those two weren't actually together anymore. He stated that he specifically went out on his own because he feared that exact outcome. That getting close to people in that world only leads to bad outcomes. Joel even learned that with Tess.
Last edited:
I feel the same way. I think a lot of the time "Queer" gets treated as a genre. It's especially prevalent for work about queer men.
I'd be a lot happier if we had more Bills. He's a queer character shaped by the world around him.
I didn't really think the DA2 "everyone is bi" stuff was all that bad. Like, unless you flirted with every character, you wouldn't know. It's only after you finish the game and find out via the internet that you could have romanced so many of them, regardless of gender, that it becomes a bit odd, but I ignored that since it wasn't my Hawke's story.
As for the thread question, I absolutely think it should be equal, because why not? Games don't have to reflect real world statistics - more often than not they're focusing on a small cast anyway, where such global percentiles barely matter. The only exception would be something like Crusader Kings where it'd get a bit silly (albeit amazing) if half of Europe's nobility was gay
As for the thread question, I absolutely think it should be equal, because why not? Games don't have to reflect real world statistics - more often than not they're focusing on a small cast anyway, where such global percentiles barely matter. The only exception would be something like Crusader Kings where it'd get a bit silly (albeit amazing) if half of Europe's nobility was gay
Shouldn't really matter. Up to the writers really. Have an all straight cast? ok. Have an all gay cast? ok.
On an individual level, people should just make the characters they want to make... which presumably for small scale indie projects would naturally manifest some degree of proportionality.
For big AAA projects where each individual on the team has less of a say and there might be a tendency to want to play it safe and just appease the majority, I do feel there's more of an onus to strive for equal representation.
For big AAA projects where each individual on the team has less of a say and there might be a tendency to want to play it safe and just appease the majority, I do feel there's more of an onus to strive for equal representation.
Totally agreed. Hell, Undertale isn't even a kids game IMO - I'd argue it's not only darker than Zelda: BOTW, but it also can attack you the player in a very confontational way (Mario Odyssey never gets onto you for possessing friendly NPCs). Of course, humor and dark themes are par for the course in teen-and-up games, but that means it's not a kids game I think.
IMO I don't think it should be a certain percentage or anything, that kinda comes off like a quota, even though I'm sure that's not your intention. Characters should just be written as well as they can be lgbt or not. There should be more reperesentation yes, but the quality of the character should stand out as well.
Undertale for sure has its horrific moments (Photoshop Flowey, the True Lab, the No Mercy run) but I don't view it as any darker than, say, Earthbound's similarly nightmarish ending sequence. I wouldn't give it to toddlers or anything but anyone over the age of 10 can handle it, I think.
I prefer demographic proportional but it's up to the individual project, dev team or writers.
I think Witcher 3 is a fantasy version of the proportional take and to directly contrast it Dragon Age Inquisition is the ethical take, and I think both had their heart in how they addressed the topic of sexuality. There's good things to be taken from both and criticisms to be had at the same time.
Inquisition can be seen as sugarcoating its commentary on reality in its attempt to normalize the rather marginalized demogrpahic it provides representation for, but that can also not be seen as sugarcoating and as a necessary way to use fantasy to push the boundaries IRL. This however goes with the assumption that equality in real life is directly influenced through art, and is in some ways a form of using art as propaganda. The reason I don't prefer this method is because of that; to me it seems untrue to what I see around me in real life but in the specific case of DAI it works because you're a ragtag gang of non-mainstream people who have set the course to right all wrongs in the world, and your company also contains many outcast-type people or eccentrics from various cultures, and the game also wasn't shy of talking about whenever sexuality came up within that jumble of underrepresented personal preferences people can have.
Witcher 3's take I liked because it felt very true and honest to me, and they took a largely straight-male typically marketed type of game with probably the most "dudebro" of geeky fantasy vibe and suddenly has a character you randomly meet in a side-quest mention how he's into men, and he doesn't stick close to the city life because he feels people aren't accepting of that fact. This can be problematic because they allow to carry the same stigma into the game that a game like Inquisition would've done away with in order to present the "what if" to players where there's no tendency to prejudice because of someone's sexuality, but I can't deny it, I still see many "gay jokes" and I still see a lot of prejudice in real life, either in school, at family reunions, on the internet and many places. It isn't comfortable but I strongly believe that part of addressing a problem or even just impartially depicting what you obvserve as a writer, is the best way to go because this allows anyone who sees it to form their own opinions about it. This homo-sexual NPC is depicted with sympathy and this made me feel for him and this made me think about what it must be like to prefer men when not many around you understand it because the writing has that empathy. To me that almost seems like a more confident depiction of this topic than hiding the ugliness of reality in order to push for a subjective ideal. The worst part of that approach is also that people who already don't agree will consider it an agenda and being "shoved down the throat" with it. Then they're proven right in their beliefs about people they don't like, and some will say "fuck them, they don't deserve to be listened to", get shut out and all we get is further division, and the thing about division is... you're not erasing people from this world just because you don't want to speak to them, and in the long run that can escalate in some fashion.
The demographic-proportionate approach if done with the proper empathy and purpose doesn't demand that you care, but it's likely to appeal to your empathy and it has a better effect on the people who are not part of a marginalized demographic that's being represented than if you ethically portray something 50/50 out of some idea of "fairness". Both are valid, I just often find that in terms of raw writing the latter has a more unsubtle "I see what you're doing." effect.
But maybe that's the takeway? The demographic-proportionate approach is more "helpful" towards the normies. The straight white males; the non-marginalized, and the other approach is more friendly to exactly the people who are currently used to getting the short end of the stick?
I think Witcher 3 is a fantasy version of the proportional take and to directly contrast it Dragon Age Inquisition is the ethical take, and I think both had their heart in how they addressed the topic of sexuality. There's good things to be taken from both and criticisms to be had at the same time.
Inquisition can be seen as sugarcoating its commentary on reality in its attempt to normalize the rather marginalized demogrpahic it provides representation for, but that can also not be seen as sugarcoating and as a necessary way to use fantasy to push the boundaries IRL. This however goes with the assumption that equality in real life is directly influenced through art, and is in some ways a form of using art as propaganda. The reason I don't prefer this method is because of that; to me it seems untrue to what I see around me in real life but in the specific case of DAI it works because you're a ragtag gang of non-mainstream people who have set the course to right all wrongs in the world, and your company also contains many outcast-type people or eccentrics from various cultures, and the game also wasn't shy of talking about whenever sexuality came up within that jumble of underrepresented personal preferences people can have.
Witcher 3's take I liked because it felt very true and honest to me, and they took a largely straight-male typically marketed type of game with probably the most "dudebro" of geeky fantasy vibe and suddenly has a character you randomly meet in a side-quest mention how he's into men, and he doesn't stick close to the city life because he feels people aren't accepting of that fact. This can be problematic because they allow to carry the same stigma into the game that a game like Inquisition would've done away with in order to present the "what if" to players where there's no tendency to prejudice because of someone's sexuality, but I can't deny it, I still see many "gay jokes" and I still see a lot of prejudice in real life, either in school, at family reunions, on the internet and many places. It isn't comfortable but I strongly believe that part of addressing a problem or even just impartially depicting what you obvserve as a writer, is the best way to go because this allows anyone who sees it to form their own opinions about it. This homo-sexual NPC is depicted with sympathy and this made me feel for him and this made me think about what it must be like to prefer men when not many around you understand it because the writing has that empathy. To me that almost seems like a more confident depiction of this topic than hiding the ugliness of reality in order to push for a subjective ideal. The worst part of that approach is also that people who already don't agree will consider it an agenda and being "shoved down the throat" with it. Then they're proven right in their beliefs about people they don't like, and some will say "fuck them, they don't deserve to be listened to", get shut out and all we get is further division, and the thing about division is... you're not erasing people from this world just because you don't want to speak to them, and in the long run that can escalate in some fashion.
The demographic-proportionate approach if done with the proper empathy and purpose doesn't demand that you care, but it's likely to appeal to your empathy and it has a better effect on the people who are not part of a marginalized demographic that's being represented than if you ethically portray something 50/50 out of some idea of "fairness". Both are valid, I just often find that in terms of raw writing the latter has a more unsubtle "I see what you're doing." effect.
But maybe that's the takeway? The demographic-proportionate approach is more "helpful" towards the normies. The straight white males; the non-marginalized, and the other approach is more friendly to exactly the people who are currently used to getting the short end of the stick?
Last edited:
I like his new interaction with Liu kang where liu is somewhat displeased of Kung preferences so devs didnt forget about it
Ultimately, the ideal would be for the existence of LGBT characters in games to mirror that of reality. Where they are common and not at all seen as weird.
Currently though, there's usually either no gay characters, a single token gay couple, or a huge percentage of gay characters.
I think over representation is a good thing at the moment because it normalizes gay characters being present as important and main characters.
After this has been completely normalized though, many years from now, I think it'll decline to a realistic proportion.
Currently though, there's usually either no gay characters, a single token gay couple, or a huge percentage of gay characters.
I think over representation is a good thing at the moment because it normalizes gay characters being present as important and main characters.
After this has been completely normalized though, many years from now, I think it'll decline to a realistic proportion.
I feel this is the wrong question, tbh; especially for games.
I mean, yes, 50/50 isn't the answer. It's somewhat silly to expect 50% of all media to be queer and 50% of all media to not be. But the moment you start saying media only needs to be 10% queer... that's a slippery slope to a very wrong point of view.
For example, if I say 10% of media is queer, what exactly do I mean is queer? Do I mean there's a gay character (say one out of every ten characters) whose queerness is acknowledge for all but two seconds before going back to living what is otherwise outwardly a cisheteronormative life? Or do we measure it by screentime, which seems bizarre if show can only have 5 minutes of gay for every 50 minutes of screentime. Or do we mean that 10% of all media needs to go all in on queerness? I do think there is a thing as centering too much on queerness in media precisely because queerness is so othered that it becomes a genre unto itself. Like I'm glad we had a very human and thorough examination on how coming out can affect your relationships with family and friends especially if you're an established man with a family but uhh, can I just have a story of two boyfriends going to slay dragons or something.don't say tellius, my boyfriend already told me that.
Games, as a media, have additional issues since they're expected to interact with their audience. I'm much more forgiving of a game like Spiderman skipping queer elements when it's a tightly focused story about a particular pre-established character; I'm very unforgiving of a game like Persona that forces me into roleplaying, but only if i roleplay as a cishet man. Just... no. The more you expect your character to be a projection, the more you need to anticipate that those people aren't a typical "gamer."
The appropriate question, I feel, is how should we represent queerness in games? Yes, having more queer characters is a start, including stories that center queer characters and sometimes having queer characters for no reason deeper than queer people exist. But I don't think thinking in terms of "10% is a good cutoff" or trying to match every cishet character with a queer one is the way to go about it at all. Like, I'm honestly not even sure what the answer to the lack of queer representation other than I feel neither of the OP's suggeestions are it.
I mean, yes, 50/50 isn't the answer. It's somewhat silly to expect 50% of all media to be queer and 50% of all media to not be. But the moment you start saying media only needs to be 10% queer... that's a slippery slope to a very wrong point of view.
For example, if I say 10% of media is queer, what exactly do I mean is queer? Do I mean there's a gay character (say one out of every ten characters) whose queerness is acknowledge for all but two seconds before going back to living what is otherwise outwardly a cisheteronormative life? Or do we measure it by screentime, which seems bizarre if show can only have 5 minutes of gay for every 50 minutes of screentime. Or do we mean that 10% of all media needs to go all in on queerness? I do think there is a thing as centering too much on queerness in media precisely because queerness is so othered that it becomes a genre unto itself. Like I'm glad we had a very human and thorough examination on how coming out can affect your relationships with family and friends especially if you're an established man with a family but uhh, can I just have a story of two boyfriends going to slay dragons or something.
Games, as a media, have additional issues since they're expected to interact with their audience. I'm much more forgiving of a game like Spiderman skipping queer elements when it's a tightly focused story about a particular pre-established character; I'm very unforgiving of a game like Persona that forces me into roleplaying, but only if i roleplay as a cishet man. Just... no. The more you expect your character to be a projection, the more you need to anticipate that those people aren't a typical "gamer."
The appropriate question, I feel, is how should we represent queerness in games? Yes, having more queer characters is a start, including stories that center queer characters and sometimes having queer characters for no reason deeper than queer people exist. But I don't think thinking in terms of "10% is a good cutoff" or trying to match every cishet character with a queer one is the way to go about it at all. Like, I'm honestly not even sure what the answer to the lack of queer representation other than I feel neither of the OP's suggeestions are it.
I don't want representation based on ratios. Games with romance options should have gay and bi characters. I'm not asking for an equal representation either, I want to feel in control of my character and most of the time my characters orientation matches my own (being gay)
It would be cool to see more major games have leading protagonists who are openly gay/bisexual. There are a few I can think of featuring women protagonists but I am unaware of any openly gay male protagonists. And it would be nice to see a game focused on a gay relationship.
Too many games are just defaultly hetero, and I don't have a problem with that at all, just, why can't we have a gay Kratos, Adam Jensen, or Nathan Drake too.
It would be cool to see more major games have leading protagonists who are openly gay/bisexual. There are a few I can think of featuring women protagonists but I am unaware of any openly gay male protagonists. And it would be nice to see a game focused on a gay relationship.
Too many games are just defaultly hetero, and I don't have a problem with that at all, just, why can't we have a gay Kratos, Adam Jensen, or Nathan Drake too.
Witcher 3s version works if only 1 in every 1000 people is gay.
In real life it's 1 on every 10, more so even. Game of Thrones handles that better with a higher but still relatively low proprotionate number of LGBT charaters.
Witcher 3 in a 60 to 100 hour game has some random guy on a side quest who disappears as quickly as he arrives.
It's like the most nothing of nothing.
It had a big impact on me regardless, like it's one of those side-quest moments I remember a lot more than so much else in the game, but I agree with you still. It's a very low ratio. At least they allowed players to tell through Ciri that they're not into guys which is good agency and fits the themes of her arc too :)